Is my steep swing really truly hindering me?

[JayMas]

I'd love to talk to the people who told you that you were steep 😂. You should not listen to them anymore. Or they are just using that term to describe something else, which would also most likely be incorrect.

 

There is a boatload of stuff to like in your swing. I'd like to borrow some.

 

[MPStrat]

29 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

What I'm gathering from this forum is Snead didn't do it right. I'm waiting for an explanation on how his clubface is way open at P5. 

 

It’s not about what’s right or wrong. It’s about the individual. 

 

If Brooks Koepka had Snead’s clubface position there, among other things, he would launch it way too high with modern equipment. The golfer, their swing and their equipment are all part of this conversation

 

Are there modern golfers who would play great with Snead’s clubface position there? Absolutely. Are most of those golfers under 90 mph with Driver? Probably 

[tthomasgolfer605]

18 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, I may have missed it but did he tell us about ball flight yet? Not sure we want to start moving the face angle around until we know what he does on the course. I'm not sure we know what he means by next level. Looking prettier on video is probably not it.

I watched it on a 4k big screen. Definitely a right to left ball flight missing left of his aim on a couple of them. 

[ShawLF]

14 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Arm overrun

I echo this point. This is primarily caused by your shoulder plane being a  too flat in the takeaway/backswing and causes you to bring the club inside early, and when your hips and shoulders stop turning, your arms continue to lift. The fix for this is adding lead side bend (not tilt but thoracic bend). Recorded a video to point this out.

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

It’s not about what’s right or wrong. It’s about the individual. 

 

If Brooks Koepka had Snead’s clubface position there, among other things, he would launch it way too high with modern equipment. The golfer, their swing and their equipment are all part of this conversation

 

Are there modern golfers who would play great with Snead’s clubface position there? Absolutely. Are most of those golfers under 90 mph with Driver? Probably 

Brad Hughes explained it to me by showing how what's perceived as an open face at P5 is actually square to the arc. From there just rotate the forearms and body and the clubhead squares up where it's supposed to. At impact. 

[me05501]

If I was a legit 3 I wouldn't change my socks much less my swing. 

[KD1]

47 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

What I'm gathering from this forum is Snead didn't do it right. I'm waiting for an explanation on how his clubface is way open at P5. 

 

No one is ragging on Snead but if you're saying that is a good example as square to the arc that OP should emulate.. well frankly, I'm waiting for an explanation.

One of these is not like the others

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by KD1

[ShawLF]

3 minutes ago, KD1 said:

One of these is not like the others

totally. These guys must have different pivots into the ball and releases.

[virtuoso]

13 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I watched it on a 4k big screen. Definitely a right to left ball flight missing left of his aim on a couple of them. 

Yeah, you're probably right. How would you fix him?

[ShawLF]

1 minute ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, you're probably right. How would you fix him?

look at the video I posted a few posts up

[tthomasgolfer605]

5 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, you're probably right. How would you fix him?

Need to see a face on to look at a few things like grip/ball position etc. 

[virtuoso]

8 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Need to see a face on to look at a few things like grip/ball position etc. 

We can presume its reasonably strong, no?

[tthomasgolfer605]

21 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

No one is ragging on Snead but if you're saying that is a good example as square to the arc that OP should emulate.. well frankly, I'm waiting for an explanation.

One of these is not like the others

 

 

 

 

Brad Hughes explains it way better than I can. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

We can presume its reasonably strong, no?

Most likely. 

[MPStrat]

27 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Brad Hughes explained it to me by showing how what's perceived as an open face at P5 is actually square to the arc. From there just rotate the forearms and body and the clubhead squares up where it's supposed to. At impact. 

His explanation of square to the arc is at the very least, technically incorrect. Even the modern golfers with what some would call shut faces are actually wide open to the target and to the “arc” at p5.
 

The truth is that depending on the individual golfer’s desired launch conditions, the clubface angle will be different at that point in the swing.

 

There are certainly things that fall in and out of fashion with the golf swing. Modern and old school type preferences. But this is something that would fall less under preferences and more under function. 

[virtuoso]

13 minutes ago, ShawLF said:

look at the video I posted a few posts up

Hey ShawLF, I like that video......but, would you really want to add side bend into it with that much hip slant and right leg lock out? I agree with the side bend part, but I'd fix the problem downstairs first--retain a little more knee flex, flatten the pelvis out a bit, then add lead side bend after that. I'd stack the fixes from the ground up to make it more feasible.

[virtuoso]

ShawLF has it right, but I would peel the onion one more layer.  Pelvis turns too early and too steep, which leads to torso rotation with out side bend, which leads to slack between the body pivot and the arms swing, which leads to arm overrun. That is your cause-effect chain. I wouldn't mess with the face angle stuff until after the base movements and sequence was addressed.

Edited August 24, 2023 by virtuoso

[tthomasgolfer605]

14 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

His explanation of square to the arc is at the very least, technically incorrect. Even the modern golfers with what some would call shut faces are actually wide open to the target and to the “arc” at p5.
 

The truth is that depending on the individual golfer’s desired launch conditions, the clubface angle will be different at that point in the swing.

 

There are certainly things that fall in and out of fashion with the golf swing. Modern and old school type preferences. But this is something that would fall less under preferences and more under function. 

The face is always open to the target line until impact. I'd have to ask him again about the arc thing though. When he worked with Brendon Todd to get him out of his slump, he had him do the opposite of what other teachers wanted him to do and it apparently worked. They wanted him to close the face early and it made him block it worse. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by tthomasgolfer605

[johnrobison]

15 hours ago, Nwichert said:

Thoughts? Any additional swing tips for me? 

One thought: 99% of the responses you'll get here are from people who haven't taught and can't teach the swing - including me. Almost all of us don't know how the whole thing comes together and don't have successes and failures from time on the practice tee trying to convey what we think we know to someone.

 

One tip: Ignore them/us. You're a 3 and you hit the ball great. Find an instructor you like and trust, describe what you're hoping to get (improve, eliminate, etc) from any changes you might make, and just do that.

[tthomasgolfer605]

3 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

ShawLF has it right, but I would peel the onion one more layer.  Pelvis turns too early and too steep, which leads to torso rotation with out side bend, which leads to slack between the body pivot and the arms swing, which leads to arm overrun. That is your cause-effect chain. I wouldn't mess with the face angle stuff until after the base movements and sequence was addressed.

So, if he changed his grip and his clubface position and he started hitting straighter that wouldn't be right? People make this game way too complicated. 

[virtuoso]

5 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

So, if he changed his grip and his clubface position and he started hitting straighter that wouldn't be right? People make this game way too complicated. 

Sure, it might help, and I might do that after other things were addressed. But generally, when a good player says he wants to "take it to the next level", its not just about shifting the spray pattern across the spectrum--its also about tightening the pattern. A more efficient body pivot, which allows him to sequence the arms better, may tighten that pattern. Could weakening the grip, or rotating the face more open help also? Could be.

 

BTW, yes, the swing is complicated. I wish it wasn't so.

Edited August 24, 2023 by virtuoso

[ShawLF]

3 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

So, if he changed his grip and his clubface position and he started hitting straighter that wouldn't be right? People make this game way too complicated. 

 

Grip might change but doesn't need to. Plenty of tour pros with weak and strong grips, but 100% of them have lead side bend in the takeaway/backswing, and trail side bend in the down swing. The spine doesn't stay straight in the swing, it bends towards the ball in both the back and downswings - so that bend has to reverse in transition. In this case, he's in trail side bend the entire swing. You can tell first by how flat his shoulder plane is, and then by the wrinkles in his shirt. Lead side bend creates wrinkles in your lead side, trail does the opposite.

 

 

 

Versus

 

 

 

[ShawLF]

35 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

One thought: 99% of the responses you'll get here are from people who haven't taught and can't teach the swing

perhaps... personally I wouldn't make a recommendation unless I was 100% confident in the advice. In my case, my pattern was the exact same when I first started playing (starting the swing in trail side bend) and I've worked with several coaches (who also coach elite college and PGA players, including a former #1 PGA player) on this exact issue. It is a fundamental aspect of the golf swing. You'll see lots of different grips, transitions, etc, among the world's best players, but you won't see any of them in trail side bend before transition. You can get to a 3 doing this, maybe even scratch if you're super athletic and have world class hand eye coordination, but you're making life way harder on yourself doing this. And yeah, a good professional swing coach is going to point this out on the first swing, and I definitely advocate working with a pro.

Edited August 24, 2023 by ShawLF
typo

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

One thought: 99% of the responses you'll get here are from people who haven't taught and can't teach the swing - including me. Almost all of us don't know how the whole thing comes together and don't have successes and failures from time on the practice tee trying to convey what we think we know to someone.

 

One tip: Ignore them/us. You're a 3 and you hit the ball great. Find an instructor you like and trust, describe what you're hoping to get (improve, eliminate, etc) from any changes you might make, and just do that.

I can sort of get on board with this in spirit but not because some mythical teacher is going to take him to the promised land, because depending on where he lives especially, the chances of that happening are very low. 
 

Then there is the fact that there are 2 or 3 posters who I would pay for a lesson even before some instructors who post here. 
 

But none of us really know anywhere near enough about golfers who post swings to make any kind of difference in their game. This goes for most forms of online analysis.

 

Objectively, some of the advice given to the op was quite good. In the real world, if you take 10 good teachers, they are going to look at this swing differently and attack his issues in their own way.
 

But really, this is just for fun and no one is getting paid. It can’t really be taken too seriously. 

 

Where I think in person instruction is invaluable and irreplaceable is with feedback and navigating the pitfalls during a swing change. 

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

The face is always open to the target line until impact. I'd have to ask him again about the arc thing though. When he worked with Brendon Todd to get him out of his slump, he had him do the opposite of what other teachers wanted him to do and it apparently worked. They wanted him to close the face early and it made him block it worse. 

I had to do some research on this because I wasn’t familiar with the changes Brad made to Brendon’s swing. Clearly he had a positive impact on Brendon’s game. 
 

But still you have this:

 

 

I tried to find the closest to where their hands and body are in the same position. Todd’s swing is from 2021. Now clearly Snead is showing a more leftward swing direction here while Todd displays a more rightward swing direction.  But Snead is using more tumble to square the face while Todd is using a lot more twist. 

 

The question is: how much tumble vs how much twist is needed in a player’s golf swing? The answer is it depends.
 

The vast majority of players with high swing speed using modern equipment need to have more twist than the old school players. 
 

It’s always possible to overdo the twist which Brad has said Todd did and overdoing it can certainly cause big blocks. This is where we get into discussions like “how much is too much shaft lean?” and “How do you fix a handle dragger?” Manzella talks a lot about this and it’s very similar stuff to what Brad taught Brendon. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 hours ago, ShawLF said:

 

Grip might change but doesn't need to. Plenty of tour pros with weak and strong grips, but 100% of them have lead side bend in the takeaway/backswing, and trail side bend in the down swing. The spine doesn't stay straight in the swing, it bends towards the ball in both the back and downswings - so that bend has to reverse in transition. In this case, he's in trail side bend the entire swing. You can tell first by how flat his shoulder plane is, and then by the wrinkles in his shirt. Lead side bend creates wrinkles in your lead side, trail does the opposite.

 

 

 

Versus

 

 

 

I saw your video. His shoulder plane is steeper than Tiger's. The difference is where the clubface is. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I had to do some research on this because I wasn’t familiar with the changes Brad made to Brendon’s swing. Clearly he had a positive impact on Brendon’s game. 
 

But still you have this:

 

 

I tried to find the closest to where their hands and body are in the same position. Todd’s swing is from 2021. Now clearly Snead is showing a more leftward swing direction here while Todd displays a more rightward swing direction.  But Snead is using more tumble to square the face while Todd is using a lot more twist. 

 

The question is: how much tumble vs how much twist is needed in a player’s golf swing? The answer is it depends.
 

The vast majority of players with high swing speed using modern equipment need to have more twist than the old school players. 
 

It’s always possible to overdo the twist which Brad has said Todd did and overdoing it can certainly cause big blocks. This is where we get into discussions like “how much is too much shaft lean?” and “How do you fix a handle dragger?” Manzella talks a lot about this and it’s very similar stuff to what Brad taught Brendon. 

 

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I had to do some research on this because I wasn’t familiar with the changes Brad made to Brendon’s swing. Clearly he had a positive impact on Brendon’s game. 
 

But still you have this:

 

 

I tried to find the closest to where their hands and body are in the same position. Todd’s swing is from 2021. Now clearly Snead is showing a more leftward swing direction here while Todd displays a more rightward swing direction.  But Snead is using more tumble to square the face while Todd is using a lot more twist. 

 

The question is: how much tumble vs how much twist is needed in a player’s golf swing? The answer is it depends.
 

The vast majority of players with high swing speed using modern equipment need to have more twist than the old school players. 
 

It’s always possible to overdo the twist which Brad has said Todd did and overdoing it can certainly cause big blocks. This is where we get into discussions like “how much is too much shaft lean?” and “How do you fix a handle dragger?” Manzella talks a lot about this and it’s very similar stuff to what Brad taught Brendon. 

Yeah. He was parallel to the back line at P5 I believe before Brad get him out of that. I think Snead hit it a bit better than Brendon though. Maybe I misunderstood the arc stuff. 

[Pepperturbo]

I been playing for over 30yrs using a steep -AoA.  My low index was 2, currently hover 3-5 depending on body n time of year.  I do NOT believe a steep AoA is prohibitive for an amateur.  Plenty of guys on tour are steep too.

[virtuoso]

16 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I saw your video. His shoulder plane is steeper than Tiger's. The difference is where the clubface is. 

Shoulder turn doesn't need to be steeper; but he does need more side bending matched with a different hip turn.

[tthomasgolfer605]

4 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Shoulder turn doesn't need to be steeper; but he does need more side bending matched with a different hip turn.

Doesn't side bend steepen the shoulder plane? Now I'm confused.