Upper body vs lower body dominance

[getitdaily]

@virtuoso

@MonteScheinblum

 

 As it relates to "upper body" vs "lower body"...

 

How do each relate to vertical and lateral forces? Is an upper body person more naturally vertical...or needs to be? Is a lower body person more naturally lateral..or needs to be?

 

I've always been an upper. But I've worked my butt off the last 9 months to rotate better and that meant reducing lateral...I've watched a lot of ground force stuff and have been focusing a lot on applying more pressure into my feet and using my legs more...but not laterally. This equates, to me, to being a lower body person. I still need to incorporate more lower body lowering in transition. The upper body lowering I toyed with just seems to be a bit off. 

 

So, if someone resolves EE via better ground force motion, have they shifted to lower body? Or, are they still upper body but, by getting more lower involved, have evolved to the "mid" that monte talks about?

[virtuoso]

19 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

@virtuoso

@MonteScheinblum

 

 As it relates to "upper body" vs "lower body"...

 

How do each relate to vertical and lateral forces? Is an upper body person more naturally vertical...or needs to be? Is a lower body person more naturally lateral..or needs to be?

 

I've always been an upper. But I've worked my butt off the last 9 months to rotate better and that meant reducing lateral...I've watched a lot of ground force stuff and have been focusing a lot on applying more pressure into my feet and using my legs more...but not laterally. This equates, to me, to being a lower body person. I still need to incorporate more lower body lowering in transition. The upper body lowering I toyed with just seems to be a bit off. 

 

So, if someone resolves EE via better ground force motion, have they shifted to lower body? Or, are they still upper body but, by getting more lower involved, have evolved to the "mid" that monte talks about?

Before I go off on the wrong tangent, when you say upper body lowering vs lower body lowering, what specific body movements are you talking about?

 

When you say upper body player vs lower body player, are you referring to Dr Wright’s core region categories?

 

I don’t subscribe to those categories and couldn’t speak to them without it sounding overly critical. I know Monte likes his work and can be more neutral using those descriptions.

[getitdaily]

19 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Before I go off on the wrong tangent, when you say upper body lowering vs lower body lowering, what specific body movements are you talking about?

 

When you say upper body player vs lower body player, are you referring to Dr Wright’s core region categories?

 

I don’t subscribe to those categories and couldn’t speak to them without it sounding overly critical. I know Monte likes his work and can be more neutral using those descriptions.

Upper body lowering - basically dominant focus of moving the chest down in transition AS you bring the arms down and turn.

 

Lower body lowering - basically dominant focus on regaining right knee flex in transition, letting the upper body lower as a function of the lower body lowering.

 

Upper body focus - feeling that the upper body dominates movement. The lower body is a means of support for the upper body to power the swing. The force and motion of the upper body causes the lower body to turn.

 

Lower body focus - the lower body acts as the driver. The upper body isn't passive, but motion is driven by an active lower body.

[virtuoso]

Ok, good descriptions. Let me pick your brain a little bit. 
 

Thought experiment: if you were going to throw a football to your buddy on the other side of the room, would you just kind of use your shoulder, arm and hand to toss it over?

 

If he was standing at the end of the driveway, would you maybe take a little step and move your chest a little to force multiply a bit?

 

If he was 40 yards down the street and running away from you, would you step back, wind up, take a big step forward and go full tilt boogie with the pelvis and chest opening before letting all that energy start translating through the arm?

 

I think you can start to find a better solution when you recalibrate your understanding of the role the upper body and lower body are playing individually and how they relate to each other.

[getitdaily]

5 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Ok, good descriptions. Let me pick your brain a little bit. 
 

Thought experiment: if you were going to throw a football to your buddy on the other side of the room, would you just kind of use your shoulder, arm and hand to toss it over?

 

If he was standing at the end of the driveway, would you maybe take a little step and move your chest a little to force multiply a bit?

 

If he was 40 yards down the street and running away from you, would you step back, wind up, take a big step forward and go full tilt boogie with the pelvis and chest opening before letting all that energy start translating through the arm?

 

I think you can start to find a better solution when you recalibrate your understanding of the role the upper body and lower body are playing individually and how they relate to each other.

Throwing...have been doing that since I was 1...lol. I always focused on the arm movement and leveraged the lower body. Sure, I'd take a big step to throw farther, but it was always still an upper body movement leveraged by the lower body.

 

As for your last paragraph, and this is why I threw in the lateral vs vertical force question...because as I've gotten more into vertical forces I think I'm learning how to leverage the lower body like what always was inherent in throwing a ball...

 

As soon as I get too lateral,  bad things happen. But I'm learning that if I don't leverage the vertical, I lose consistency as well. 

 

So, I think I'm learning that lower body role better....

[virtuoso]

Based on your athletic background you have an advantage.

 

(As a funny side note, I once gave Mikhail Baryshnikov a golf lesson. Super coordinated right? No throwing, batting background…the coordination did not translate.)

 

Let’s not peel the onion slowly. Let’s get right to the punchline and work backwards. You said you moved the arm first and naturally blended in support with the body: longer throw, bigger step.

 

Im flying blind here but if I had to guess, you are struggling to build lower body support for the golf swing because you can’t get a feel for taking that “step” in golf.

 

What if, when you were learning to throw a football farther, someone said, “No, no, you are taking a step and then opening your body! You’ve got it backwards—you need to spin your hips open first, and then take the step! 
 

How would that work out?

 

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by virtuoso

[Nels55]

You know I don't think that it is specific ground force related though possibly more torque ground force would be expected of more of a lower body action.  It is also related to the muscles being used for instance if I make an upper body arms swing my arms will get tired and clubhead speed will slow down after a while.  If I am using my body more then that will not happen as the bigger muscles don't get tired as easily.  LOL my two cents...  At the moment anyway.

[getitdaily]

41 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Based on your athletic background you have an advantage.

 

(As a funny side note, I once gave Mikhail Baryshnikov a golf lesson. Super coordinated right? No throwing, batting background…the coordination did not translate.)

 

Let’s not peel the onion slowly. Let’s get right to the punchline and work backwards. You said you moved the arm first and naturally blended in support with the body: longer throw, bigger step.

 

Im flying blind here but if I had to guess, you are struggling to build lower body support for the golf swing because you can’t get a feel for taking that “step” in golf.

 

What if, when you were learning to throw a football farther, someone said, “No, no, you are taking a step and then opening your body! You’ve got it backwards—you need to spin your hips open first, and then take the step! 
 

How would that work out?

 

 

I think I'm relearning how to leverage the lower body...or, how to leverage it properly. What I haven't gotten down yet is the downshift/downswing movement just yet. I think I'm close....switching from lateral to vertical. I came from the school of "load the trail side and fire the hips"...

[virtuoso]

18 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

I think I'm relearning how to leverage the lower body...or, how to leverage it properly. What I haven't gotten down yet is the downshift/downswing movement just yet. I think I'm close....switching from lateral to vertical. I came from the school of "load the trail side and fire the hips"...

That school is missing one ingredient. It should be load the trail side, then load the lead side, then fire everything.

 

What I’m trying to get at is that in order to max out the rotational and vertical forces, you have to have “enough” lateral first. Most people don’t. You have to load up that lead leg and foot, and still have a residual rotational range of motion still waiting, before you fire up and around.

Edited September 4, 2023 by virtuoso

[getitdaily]

50 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

You know I don't think that it is specific ground force related though possibly more torque ground force would be expected of more of a lower body action.  It is also related to the muscles being used for instance if I make an upper body arms swing my arms will get tired and clubhead speed will slow down after a while.  If I am using my body more then that will not happen as the bigger muscles don't get tired as easily.  LOL my two cents...  At the moment anyway.

But I think torque and ground force are the same thing...

[getitdaily]

8 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

That school is missing one ingredient. It should be load the trail side, then load the lead side, then fire everything.

 

What I’m trying to get at is that in order to max out the rotational and vertical forces, you have to have “enough” lateral first. Most people don’t. You have to load up that lead leg and foot, and still have a residual rotational range of motion still waiting, before you fire up and around.

Agree on that trail side load. I've briefly chatted with monte on this and he agreed that the momentum of the arm swing is all the trail side shift that is necessary. That's basically what I've gotten to.

[virtuoso]

32 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Agree on that trail side load. I've briefly chatted with monte on this and he agreed that the momentum of the arm swing is all the trail side shift that is necessary. That's basically what I've gotten to.

But you don’t agree on the lead side load?

[MonteScheinblum]

I’ll add two things.  

 

1.  Trying to over use one force is a recipe to suck at golf.  When you over pay Paul, you rob Peter.

 

2.  Loading trail side first, then lead side at the end of the backswing and the firing everything at once is a vastly underrated movement by gif instruction for 100 years.  Until recently, no one taught it that way and it’s ten way I’ve been teaching since I started….save one issue.  I didn’t start teaching back to lead side early enough until about 5 years ago. 

People have mistake me for a fire arms first guy for years because so many golfers rotate early.  Many people have to feel fire arms first, which is impossible, to get everything to fire at once.

 

If you sequence the shift and “fire everything” properly, you get your personal max use of lateral, rotational and vertical.  

 

[Nels55]

46 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

But I think torque and ground force are the same thing...

There are three ground forces defined by Swing Catalyst folks and in a good swing the peak force for each occurs in this order:

Linear

Torque or rotational

Vertical

 

Get those forces peaking at high levels in that order at the correct times and you will max out clubhead speed.

[virtuoso]

7 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

If you sequence the shift and “fire everything” properly, you get your personal max use of lateral, rotational and vertical.  

Yeah, let’s do the trifecta. I think on some of the current pressure shift categorizations, they segment by how long you hang out on the trail foot. I think I’m more like you in the sense that I tend to like early-ish off, and start falling left. But you might not like how much lateral I want to go left before exit rotation.

I like “trying” to be this much left, even though I won’t actually get there. That’s the best way to get that left foot ready to be a springboard. 

 

[getitdaily]

22 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

But you don’t agree on the lead side load?

I 100% agree on the lead side load. I think people wait WAY too long to get there. 

 

The #1 factor for my better rotation was when I started feeling like I got lead side before p2. That move almost eliminated my downswing lateral slide.

[getitdaily]

7 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

There are three ground forces defined by Swing Catalyst folks and in a good swing the peak force for each occurs in this order:

Linear

Torque or rotational

Vertical

 

Get those forces peaking at high levels in that order at the correct times and you will max out clubhead speed.

Agree. I think my rotational and vertical ate slightly off...but really close.

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Based on your athletic background you have an advantage.

 

(As a funny side note, I once gave Mikhail Baryshnikov a golf lesson. Super coordinated right? No throwing, batting background…the coordination did not translate.)

 

Let’s not peel the onion slowly. Let’s get right to the punchline and work backwards. You said you moved the arm first and naturally blended in support with the body: longer throw, bigger step.

 

Im flying blind here but if I had to guess, you are struggling to build lower body support for the golf swing because you can’t get a feel for taking that “step” in golf.

 

What if, when you were learning to throw a football farther, someone said, “No, no, you are taking a step and then opening your body! You’ve got it backwards—you need to spin your hips open first, and then take the step! 
 

How would that work out?

 

 

Yes.   That’s why the step drills work so well. Step back load -push . Step forward load-push  , then unload it all from the waist up  ( feels ) like a sway.  But it’s not if you plant both times properly.   Or at least that my dumb dumb opinion on myself. 

[Nels55]

13 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Agree. I think my rotational and vertical ate slightly off...but really close.

It seems from videos I have seen that most top players have one of the three  that is their main power source.  Long drive guys tend to use all three very well.  The only way to know what you are actually doing is to get on the system and get some data.

[getitdaily]

22 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yes.   That’s why the step drills work so well. Step back load -push . Step forward load-push  , then unload it all from the waist up  ( feels ) like a sway.  But it’s not if you plant both times properly.   Or at least that my dumb dumb opinion on myself. 

The step drills always feel way too lateral for me. I prefer the medicine ball sway to get the feeling right. 

[bladehunter]

8 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

The step drills always feel way too lateral for me. I prefer the medicine ball sway to get the feeling right. 

The other part for me that makes sure arms ( upper ) don’t dominate , is the feeling of starting the swing with the core movement off the ball. Belt buckle goes first.   Arms and hands “ feel “ passive at the beginning.  This was my feel for stopping the hands back first reach that leads to a disconnected , stuck , down swing . We most likely “ feel “ similar things if you like the medicine ball sway.  That’s about the same feel as my “ belt buckle /passive arms”  feel. 
 

 

[Albatross Dreamer]

This is a whole different rabbit hole, but there's also anatomical factors to consider. Some people are going to produce force better rotational vs others better vertically.

 

One thing you can look at is Infrasternal Angle (ISA). A person with a narrow ISA (<90°) is typically going to be able to rotate better, but generally not as effective as creating vertical force. Someone with a wide ISA (>110°) is generally a better vertical force producer. The reason is due to the shape of the thorax and the downstream effect it has on leveraging different core muscles. A narrow ISA is a more circular thorax vs a wide ISA is more of an oval. Narrow ISA is also more eccentrically/expansion oriented vs wide being concentrically/compressive oriented.

 

Now ISA isn't an end all be all as there's a variety of ways to produce movement, but it is one thing that can help explain why certain people move/swing different with different body "focuses".

[getitdaily]

47 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

It seems from videos I have seen that most top players have one of the three  that is their main power source.  Long drive guys tend to use all three very well.  The only way to know what you are actually doing is to get on the system and get some data.

Agree. I hopefully will do that this winter. 

[getitdaily]

17 minutes ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

This is a whole different rabbit hole, but there's also anatomical factors to consider. Some people are going to produce force better rotational vs others better vertically.

 

One thing you can look at is Infrasternal Angle (ISA). A person with a narrow ISA (<90°) is typically going to be able to rotate better, but generally not as effective as creating vertical force. Someone with a wide ISA (>110°) is generally a better vertical force producer. The reason is due to the shape of the thorax and the downstream effect it has on leveraging different core muscles. A narrow ISA is a more circular thorax vs a wide ISA is more of an oval. Narrow ISA is also more eccentrically/expansion oriented vs wide being concentrically/compressive oriented.

 

Now ISA isn't an end all be all as there's a variety of ways to produce movement, but it is one thing that can help explain why certain people move/swing different with different body "focuses".

Man, and I thought flexion, internal/external rotation, and suppination were complicated terms...

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, let’s do the trifecta. I think on some of the current pressure shift categorizations, they segment by how long you hang out on the trail foot. I think I’m more like you in the sense that I tend to like early-ish off, and start falling left. But you might not like how much lateral I want to go left before exit rotation.

I like “trying” to be this much left, even though I won’t actually get there. That’s the best way to get that left foot ready to be a springboard. 

 

As much left as you can get left after an initial trail side shift off the ball generally never gets over done.  Have only seen it once.

[virtuoso]

7 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

As much left as you can get left after an initial trail side shift off the ball generally never gets over done.  Have only seen it once.

Similarly, I’ve only seen one of my college players overdo it.

 

A lot of people would look at this transition and think it looks pretty rotational, but it’s actually very “fall left” lateral. It’s hidden at dtl, but the behind view shows the big lateral push off the trail foot.

 

 

 

[getitdaily]

13 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

As much left as you can get left after an initial trail side shift off the ball generally never gets over done.  Have only seen it once.

So from what I've observed, getting lead side early really allows the lead side to then push up and back.

 

If this is correct then staying closed and firing up and back seem to run counter to each other. Some.of my best ball striking this year was when I felt like I went lead side around p2 and then pushed up and back between p4 and p5. But that isn't staying closed...

[Albatross Dreamer]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

Man, and I thought flexion, internal/external rotation, and suppination were complicated terms...

It can definitely get crazy going down movement rabbit holes lol. I've been considering starting a training/golf thread to talk about some of own training as well as explore some topics related to off course training. I don't know everything obviously, but thought it could be fun since there's so many perspectives.

[MonteScheinblum]

17 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

So from what I've observed, getting lead side early really allows the lead side to then push up and back.

 

If this is correct then staying closed and firing up and back seem to run counter to each other. Some.of my best ball striking this year was when I felt like I went lead side around p2 and then pushed up and back between p4 and p5. But that isn't staying closed...

It is.  
 

i say this over and over again.  
 

“This feels…..” Those two words and what follows are the most dangerous words in golf.  
 

“This feels weird,” is the single biggest reason people don’t get better at golf.

 

This move, “Fells like a reverse pivot.”

 

For lack of a better description, this is backing into the target, versus spinning out on ten right side, or worse, sliding/lunging into the left side and creating issues with rotation and tilts.

 

How can you push up and back from p5 to p6 if you aren’t there at p3.9?

 

Theres a reason why so many arms apply vertical late.

[Albatross Dreamer]

31 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

As much left as you can get left after an initial trail side shift off the ball generally never gets over done.  Have only seen it once.

 

17 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Similarly, I’ve only seen one of my college players overdo it.

 

A lot of people would look at this transition and think it looks pretty rotational, but it’s actually very “fall left” lateral. It’s hidden at dtl, but the behind view shows the big lateral push off the trail foot.

 

 

 

I'd think it'd be hard to over-do since 1- you'd have to either "pop" your hip way out there in which case you wouldn't be able to rotate and/or really get to the outside of your front leg to the point your ankle is bending out and 2- if you're applying any sort of force with your front leg it acts as a "wall" to turn horizontal force into vertical and/or rotational force.

 

 Would you agree with this as possible mechanisms or think it's something else?