UKG86 Swing overhaul

[Valtiel]

14 hours ago, UKGolfer86 said:

 

 

This comment seemed to sit in my subconscious all afternoon.  I went to the range again after work and really tried to work on transferring my weight to the inside of my trail foot in the backswing whilst doing the Faldo drill.  This is going to be my work for the next couple of weeks.  Better weight transfer reduced my excessive hip turn and shoulder turn, which meant that the left knee didn't need to kick out.  I certainly didn't get it right every time, but When i got the transfer correct in both the backswing and transition, the compression and power from even a 3/4 swing with the Faldo preset was phenomenal.  

 

My hip turn was good, but it felt like they weren't turning at all because of how much they were over rotating before, so keeping that in check is going to be a challenge. 

 

1 think i wanted to check @Valtiel, when doing the preset drill, im finding it difficult to get enough set, either my grip is limiting my range of motion, or im trying to set the club incorrectly.  Below is a still photo of my preset and a video of doing it, clearly the clubhead should be higher, shaft parallel.  Any suggestions?

That generally looks good, but you'll want to check the down the line view to make sure the club is pointing roughly towards the target and/or along your foot line. From a face on view i'm seeing what might be a rolling too much to the inside which is an imbalance of flexion/extension (folding of the wrists back/forward) and radial deviation (hinging of the wrists upwards). The former when used by itself will always get the club working flat/inside, whereas the latter gets it up in front of you. The correct blend of the two gets you on plane, so check that DTL to confirm. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Valtiel

[UKGolfer86]

Great, I have an hour at lunch tomorrow to get back to the range.  Will get some further video Inc DTL and see what we have.  

[Valtiel]

5 minutes ago, UKGolfer86 said:

Great, I have an hour at lunch tomorrow to get back to the range.  Will get some further video Inc DTL and see what we have.  

You may want to look at your right thumb and how much it is folding around the grip there. Right thumb to right index finger connection is good, but that seems excessive in a "Jordan Spieth" kind of way. It might help to keep the pad of it a little more on the grip and less on that index finger. 

[Dpavs]

15 hours ago, UKGolfer86 said:

That's fair.  Just didn't want the thread to end up just being a discussion on it seeing as there are already some about it.

 

I will be trying it in some form eventually though.

 

I did try this yesterday using a cardboard box which I cut down and then reinforced with another box. Didn't cost me a dime to get the feel for the concept this way!

Edited October 12, 2023 by Dpavs

[UKGolfer86]

14 hours ago, Valtiel said:

You may want to look at your right thumb and how much it is folding around the grip there. Right thumb to right index finger connection is good, but that seems excessive in a "Jordan Spieth" kind of way. It might help to keep the pad of it a little more on the grip and less on that index finger. 

So just been out again to try working on this.  Not sure im getting the wrist set quite right in the Faldo drill, though contact is generally very good.  DTL view my left knee is still breaking down and kicking out, but face on i seem a little more centered, not moving toward the target as much at the end of the backswing.  Though little to no difference in club position between first video and today.

 

A lot of work still to do.

[slytown]

1 hour ago, UKGolfer86 said:

So just been out again to try working on this.  Not sure im getting the wrist set quite right in the Faldo drill, though contact is generally very good.  DTL view my left knee is still breaking down and kicking out, but face on i seem a little more centered, not moving toward the target as much at the end of the backswing.  Though little to no difference in club position between first video and today.

 

A lot of work still to do.

 

 

Still looks the same to me in the real swing.

 

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, UKGolfer86 said:

So just been out again to try working on this.  Not sure im getting the wrist set quite right in the Faldo drill, though contact is generally very good. 

On the plus side here the wrist drill does seem to have flattened your left wrist at the top and gotten the club a little more square and less across the line which is likely where the improvements you're seeing are coming from.

Good contact is obviously a positive, but you *are* doing one of the things Faldo says specifically not to do in the drill, which is hinge the club too inside:



Not quite as exaggerated as Faldo's example, but the club is still pointing way further to the right than you want, which results in this:



An extremely flat shaft plane going back. While not something fatal on it's own, in this context it's encouraging this overswing still....



Which sees your hands still getting extremely deep and your right arm/elbow flying away from your body. Some people can pull off similar positions, but you need a LOT of hand/arm speed to get the club back down in time, which this position confirms you don't:



Your hands trailing this severely with no right wrist angle remaining here at P6 is a knock-on effect of never getting your wrists set properly:



This goes back to what you're missing in the Faldo drill that is getting the club too far inside; all extension/flexion and no radial deviation:



Radial Deviation gets the club "up" and keeps it from getting flat and around you in the ways you're doing right now, which leads to the backswing position issue you have currently. This can be where the Padraig wrist drills come into play because you're going to need to feel extremely "wrist-y" to get the feel of a proper wrist set. I can almost guarantee that if I asked you to make the absolutely wristiest swing possible that you would actually be in a good place, provided you get that radial deviation in there.

[snagy2000]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

On the plus side here the wrist drill does seem to have flattened your left wrist at the top and gotten the club a little more square and less across the line which is likely where the improvements you're seeing are coming from.

Good contact is obviously a positive, but you *are* doing one of the things Faldo says specifically not to do in the drill, which is hinge the club too inside:



Not quite as exaggerated as Faldo's example, but the club is still pointing way further to the right than you want, which results in this:



An extremely flat shaft plane going back. While not something fatal on it's own, in this context it's encouraging this overswing still....



Which sees your hands still getting extremely deep and your right arm/elbow flying away from your body. Some people can pull off similar positions, but you need a LOT of hand/arm speed to get the club back down in time, which this position confirms you don't:



Your hands trailing this severely with no right wrist angle remaining here at P6 is a knock-on effect of never getting your wrists set properly:



This goes back to what you're missing in the Faldo drill that is getting the club too far inside; all extension/flexion and no radial deviation:



Radial Deviation gets the club "up" and keeps it from getting flat and around you in the ways you're doing right now, which leads to the backswing position issue you have currently. This can be where the Padraig wrist drills come into play because you're going to need to feel extremely "wrist-y" to get the feel of a proper wrist set. I can almost guarantee that if I asked you to make the absolutely wristiest swing possible that you would actually be in a good place, provided you get that radial deviation in there.

This will help from hinging inside and get you started back on the proper line...I only post things which work, not joking around with "snake oil" products...For the cheapos, It can probably be built with cardboard (reinforced if need be), a pen and zip ties... 😂

[UKGolfer86]

8 hours ago, Valtiel said:

On the plus side here the wrist drill does seem to have flattened your left wrist at the top and gotten the club a little more square and less across the line which is likely where the improvements you're seeing are coming from.

Good contact is obviously a positive, but you *are* doing one of the things Faldo says specifically not to do in the drill, which is hinge the club too inside:



Not quite as exaggerated as Faldo's example, but the club is still pointing way further to the right than you want, which results in this:



An extremely flat shaft plane going back. While not something fatal on it's own, in this context it's encouraging this overswing still....



Which sees your hands still getting extremely deep and your right arm/elbow flying away from your body. Some people can pull off similar positions, but you need a LOT of hand/arm speed to get the club back down in time, which this position confirms you don't:



Your hands trailing this severely with no right wrist angle remaining here at P6 is a knock-on effect of never getting your wrists set properly:



This goes back to what you're missing in the Faldo drill that is getting the club too far inside; all extension/flexion and no radial deviation:



Radial Deviation gets the club "up" and keeps it from getting flat and around you in the ways you're doing right now, which leads to the backswing position issue you have currently. This can be where the Padraig wrist drills come into play because you're going to need to feel extremely "wrist-y" to get the feel of a proper wrist set. I can almost guarantee that if I asked you to make the absolutely wristiest swing possible that you would actually be in a good place, provided you get that radial deviation in there.

 

Perfect, yea the radial deviation has always been a bit of a problem.  I will re-watch the Faldo video and the Padraig and get back to the range over the weekend as its looking far to wet to get on the course.   Focus to be all wrists, get the radial deviation working and then see where we end up.

 

Thanks again for the detailed analysis.

[UKGolfer86]

Been put again, working both on trying to increase the wrist set and reduce the over rotation going back.  Maybe some small improvements, but really thought this would be easier to get right at the range when it's my sole focus

 

Front on feels like there is a degree of Improvement compared to the first videos I uploaded, so maybe this is just going to be slow progress.  One question @Valtiel I lack right side bend into the downswing compared to the stills you've used to compare with mine.  Should i be looking at that now as well, or just focus on wrist set?

 

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

@UKGolfer86 Definitely several incremental improvements there + some other things to work on. Regarding improvements:



Much better vertical hinging here, i'd consider this a good place now with one caveat:



Your hands push away from you here a little more than is idea and it suggests that you're a little crowded at address (hands too close to your legs). I would give yourself a little more room here. Also address position:



Good stance width now, but the ball hasn't moved forward quite as much as it could, i'd give it another half a ball towards your front foot. The main issues now are lateral sliding in the downswing (which has gotten more pronounced) and club path going back (which has gotten better but still needs improvement).



This is a really common pattern of progressive flattening/deepening that gets people stuck when they first start learning to get properly "vertical" in the backswing. The vertical hinge is initially good as previously mentioned, but then at each stage of the backswing your hand path gets flatter and flatter as indicated by the red connecting lines making "left turns" between each orange dot.



Compare to Adam here (and this is true for virtually all pros) and we see a much more "consistent" line in terms of hand path. So long story short, you need to keep feeling more vertical/up in the backswing throughout and more aggressively resist the intuitive urge to swing more "around" you which is what causes this excessive deepness in the backswing.

The other main issue is the lateral movement in the downswing:



The amount that your entire body shifts towards the target is the other reason your hands are getting left behind and you're forced to flip. You're transitioning into your front side well timing wise in transition, but you're throwing your whole body towards the target to do that getting your head and shoulders way in front of the ball. Combine that what is going on with your front leg in that you're "sliding" into it but you're not then using that weight to create either vertical or torque forces to "finish" the process, you're just sliding further and further out onto the outside of that foot. The "reverse C" bend in that leg at impact in this case with the knee well outside the ankle is indicative of that, too much "slide" and not enough "posting up".

That is a lot to look at obviously, and the sliding in the downswing is one of the reasons it is good to start smaller than full swings, there are simply too many things that can go wrong in a full swing when you're trying to make overhauls. Keep working on getting and keeping the hands moving "up" in the backswing and experiment a little with trying to keep your head and shoulders back in transition while the lower body works towards the target. The correct feeling of "posting up" on the front leg is a trickier one so I would worry about just those two for now.

[UKGolfer86]

8 hours ago, Valtiel said:

@UKGolfer86 Definitely several incremental improvements there + some other things to work on. Regarding improvements:



Much better vertical hinging here, i'd consider this a good place now with one caveat:



Your hands push away from you here a little more than is idea and it suggests that you're a little crowded at address (hands too close to your legs). I would give yourself a little more room here. Also address position:



Good stance width now, but the ball hasn't moved forward quite as much as it could, i'd give it another half a ball towards your front foot. The main issues now are lateral sliding in the downswing (which has gotten more pronounced) and club path going back (which has gotten better but still needs improvement).



This is a really common pattern of progressive flattening/deepening that gets people stuck when they first start learning to get properly "vertical" in the backswing. The vertical hinge is initially good as previously mentioned, but then at each stage of the backswing your hand path gets flatter and flatter as indicated by the red connecting lines making "left turns" between each orange dot.



Compare to Adam here (and this is true for virtually all pros) and we see a much more "consistent" line in terms of hand path. So long story short, you need to keep feeling more vertical/up in the backswing throughout and more aggressively resist the intuitive urge to swing more "around" you which is what causes this excessive deepness in the backswing.

The other main issue is the lateral movement in the downswing:



The amount that your entire body shifts towards the target is the other reason your hands are getting left behind and you're forced to flip. You're transitioning into your front side well timing wise in transition, but you're throwing your whole body towards the target to do that getting your head and shoulders way in front of the ball. Combine that what is going on with your front leg in that you're "sliding" into it but you're not then using that weight to create either vertical or torque forces to "finish" the process, you're just sliding further and further out onto the outside of that foot. The "reverse C" bend in that leg at impact in this case with the knee well outside the ankle is indicative of that, too much "slide" and not enough "posting up".

That is a lot to look at obviously, and the sliding in the downswing is one of the reasons it is good to start smaller than full swings, there are simply too many things that can go wrong in a full swing when you're trying to make overhauls. Keep working on getting and keeping the hands moving "up" in the backswing and experiment a little with trying to keep your head and shoulders back in transition while the lower body works towards the target. The correct feeling of "posting up" on the front leg is a trickier one so I would worry about just those two for now.

Thank you @Valtiel, this is hugely appreciated and better analysis than pretty much any in person lessons i have taken.  Out of curiosity, where are you based?

 

Its motivating to see that i have made some progress.  I have been able to hit the range a lot more in the last 10 days than normal, but hoping i can keep this momentum up and ideally actually get out on the course soon too.

 

I had noticed the worsening in the slide, which was the trigger for my question regarding right side bend. Bumping the hip and keeping the upper body/head in the same spot as adress looks simple enough, but i know in practice it is something i have worked on in the past and hasnt necessarily worked out, so some work to do  there.

 

So for this week, more vertical in the backswing and stopping that slide!  

 

Thanks again.

[slytown]

To be honest, I don't like the Faldo wrist set drill. Keep working on it to see how it helps, but I don't think its an effective pattern, especially for feel.

 

I don't see much change. You still over swing and bring the club too far behind you early in the backswing. You also still do extra lateral movement forward in the downswing. Until you effectively shorten the backswing SIGNIFICANTLY, get the club working up, and get rid of the lateral movement, those incremental changes @Valtiel talks about are not going to change things much.

[UKGolfer86]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:06 PM, Valtiel said:

@UKGolfer86 Definitely several incremental improvements there + some other things to work on. Regarding improvements:



Much better vertical hinging here, i'd consider this a good place now with one caveat:



Your hands push away from you here a little more than is idea and it suggests that you're a little crowded at address (hands too close to your legs). I would give yourself a little more room here. Also address position:



Good stance width now, but the ball hasn't moved forward quite as much as it could, i'd give it another half a ball towards your front foot. The main issues now are lateral sliding in the downswing (which has gotten more pronounced) and club path going back (which has gotten better but still needs improvement).



This is a really common pattern of progressive flattening/deepening that gets people stuck when they first start learning to get properly "vertical" in the backswing. The vertical hinge is initially good as previously mentioned, but then at each stage of the backswing your hand path gets flatter and flatter as indicated by the red connecting lines making "left turns" between each orange dot.



Compare to Adam here (and this is true for virtually all pros) and we see a much more "consistent" line in terms of hand path. So long story short, you need to keep feeling more vertical/up in the backswing throughout and more aggressively resist the intuitive urge to swing more "around" you which is what causes this excessive deepness in the backswing.

The other main issue is the lateral movement in the downswing:



The amount that your entire body shifts towards the target is the other reason your hands are getting left behind and you're forced to flip. You're transitioning into your front side well timing wise in transition, but you're throwing your whole body towards the target to do that getting your head and shoulders way in front of the ball. Combine that what is going on with your front leg in that you're "sliding" into it but you're not then using that weight to create either vertical or torque forces to "finish" the process, you're just sliding further and further out onto the outside of that foot. The "reverse C" bend in that leg at impact in this case with the knee well outside the ankle is indicative of that, too much "slide" and not enough "posting up".

That is a lot to look at obviously, and the sliding in the downswing is one of the reasons it is good to start smaller than full swings, there are simply too many things that can go wrong in a full swing when you're trying to make overhauls. Keep working on getting and keeping the hands moving "up" in the backswing and experiment a little with trying to keep your head and shoulders back in transition while the lower body works towards the target. The correct feeling of "posting up" on the front leg is a trickier one so I would worry about just those two for now.

 

I have been to the range a couple of times this week, but I'm really struggling to make any headway with the slide toward target and the overswing.  On swings where I feel like I'm barely turning back I check the video and it's just as long... I don't get it but it's driving me mad.

 

Do you have a drill specifically to help with reducing the backswing length?

 

Also anything for working on that slide as well?

[slytown]

2 hours ago, UKGolfer86 said:

 

I have been to the range a couple of times this week, but I'm really struggling to make any headway with the slide toward target and the overswing.  On swings where I feel like I'm barely turning back I check the video and it's just as long... I don't get it but it's driving me mad.

 

Do you have a drill specifically to help with reducing the backswing length?

 

Also anything for working on that slide as well?

 

You need to exaggerate the feeling. Literally, make a half backswing. It will not be a half backswing when you make a full swing, but you need to feel like it is a half backswing. Trust me. You can still hit it as far with a half backswing.

 

When you can flush it doing this drill, then you can work on reaching farther back with more turn. With this drill, it puts the arms and wrists into position. From here, the full backswing is just a little more turn. But I would just have you do half backswing shots from wedges up to 7 iron for like a month. It'll be a struggle, but it's what you need to do.

 

Use the thumbnail for the video as a guide for the top of your half backswing position. Club is vertical, shoulders about 45 degrees, some hip depth, and enough wrist set for the L shape between club and forearm.

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by slytown

[UKGolfer86]

1 hour ago, slytown said:

 

You need to exaggerate the feeling. Literally, make a half backswing. It will not be a half backswing when you make a full swing, but you need to feel like it is a half backswing. Trust me. You can still hit it as far with a half backswing.

 

When you can flush it doing this drill, then you can work on reaching farther back with more turn. With this drill, it puts the arms and wrists into position. From here, the full backswing is just a little more turn. But I would just have you do half backswing shots from wedges up to 7 iron for like a month. It'll be a struggle, but it's what you need to do.

 

Use the thumbnail for the video as a guide for the top of your half backswing position. Club is vertical, shoulders about 45 degrees, some hip depth, and enough wrist set for the L shape between club and forearm.

 

 

 

OK, this is me for the foreseeable. This literally feels like I have barely started my takeaway, let alone half the backswing. Start at a much slower tempo to begin with to get the sequencing right?

[UKGolfer86]

@Valtiel and @slytown thanks for your help over the past couple of weeks.  Played today and ball striking was possibly the best I've ever experienced.  I managed to keep the hip turn somewhat in check and the added wrist hinge I have been working on made a huge difference.

 

Hit 11 greens, but unfortunately the putter was stone cold.  Overall a very good day though.

 

Will continue with the recommended drills and get some further video this week.

[UKGolfer86]

@Valtielwhat app is it you have used to edit the videos in your posts? I feel like this may be useful for myself.

 

Been to the range today for a quick session again working on shortening the backswing through less hip turn etc.  Bluetooth remote died before i go to any DTL stuff and i was short of time, so just a couple of videos.  Definitely still some slide in there, but feels like i have managed to get the over rotation of the hips in bit more in check.

 

Keep working on the previously mentioned drills, or is there something else i could incorporate to get this slide out?  Im assuming i slide toward the target because my hands are too far behind my pivot, so the slide gets the clubhead to the ball at the right point.    Am i wanting to speed up my arms in order to get them to the ball quicker so that i dont need to slide?  or am i misunderstanding this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[slytown]

The pre-set is good but you are still turning too much in the backswing. That doesn't mean a big turn is bad. It's great for power and swinging more from the inside. The problem I see for you is that the big turn puts all your weight on your lead side, making you off balance. The result is in the downswing you have to do a correction to stay balanced and get to the ball, which is that casting motion.

 

Understand that the backswing puts you on your right side and the downswing puts you on your lead side. THIS IS NOT AN ACTIVE MOVEMENT OF WEIGHT. You will achieve both weight shifts through proper movement of the club.

 

For your backswing, you need to short the shoulder rotation. That will ensure you keep your weight on your right side. The upper body is a lot of weight. By not overturning, your weight will stay more on your right side automatically. You don't need to add extra shift. Just shorten the backswing turn.

 

For your downswing, understand that turn and release will get you to your lead side. I would have you, once you shorten the backswing correctly, to work on just turning in the downswing.

 

Keep working on those 9 to 3 drills. They work wonders. You are definitely still turning past 9 o'clock  in the backswing here.