Korn ferry ball found not in hazard after drop..eventual DQ

[NMBob]

this seems wild.   

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/kft-rookie-dqd-after-mistake-2-shots-into-season-opener-in-bahamas/ar-AA1n0hnd

[iacas]

What's wild about it?

 

He played a wrong ball and didn't correct the mistake before beginning play on the next hole.

 

P.S. See the next post for more.

Edited January 15 by iacas
Added postscript.

[iacas]

Talked to @davep043 and we agree: the explanation is wrong.

 

Quote

By incorrectly proceeding with the original ball, the player has played from a wrong place (Rule 14.7a) and is subject to penalty. Having played from a wrong place, the player must decide (Rule 14.7b) whether to play out the hole with the ball played from the wrong place, or correct the mistake by playing from the right place. The player must correct the mistake by playing out the hole with a ball played from a right place under the Rules. In this situation, as the player did not correct the mistake before making a stroke to begin the next (11th) hole, the player is disqualified.

 

Nah.

 

It's a wrong ball penalty, and he didn't correct it before playing from the next tee.

[NMBob]

if the opponents are still looking for the ball, then maybe they didn't agree he should be dropping.  Which means he is not allowed to be dropping where he dropped to begin with.  And think about it, if you can't change, why are they looking for his ball, after he drops?  Nothing good can happen apparently after you drop, but professionals are still looking.

Edited January 15 by NMBob

[iacas]

1 minute ago, NMBob said:

if the opponents are still looking for the ball, then maybe they didn't agree he should be dropping.  Which means he is not allowed to be dropping where he dropped to begin with.  And think about it, if you can't change, why are they looking for his ball, after he drops?  Nothing good can happen apparently.

 

That's not really the issue, though.

 

If he had KVC, he was allowed to drop. And he did: "the player having put another (substituted) ball into play with knowledge/virtual certainty at the time."

[sui generis]

14 minutes ago, NMBob said:

if the opponents are still looking for the ball, then maybe they didn't agree he should be dropping.  Which means he is not allowed to be dropping where he dropped to begin with.  And think about it, if you can't change, why are they looking for his ball, after he drops?  Nothing good can happen apparently after you drop, but professionals are still looking.

 

This is stroke play. There are no "opponents" in stroke play. 

[NMBob]

Quote

If a player’s ball is in a penalty area, including when it is known or virtually certain to be in a penalty area even though not found, the player has these relief options, each for one penalty stroke:

 

 

Quote

 

Since he was the last to hit his approach shot, both Creel and Kozan were up near the green when Lyras hit.

When they turned around, Lyras had dropped a ball in front of the penalty area and according to Creel, Kozan motioned that Lyras’ original ball was not in the water and playable. Lyras then picked up the ball he had just dropped and played the hole out with his original ball. (Once you drop a ball, it is in play, therefore you can’t pick it up and play the original ball)

 

 

it seems his players never agreed that it was virtually certain his ball was in the penalty area, .....  doesn't matter though.....he now is required to play from a place he was never entitled to play?  Even though he hasn't taken a stroke at a ball?   Seems like a rule change to something that makes more sense could be suggested.   The most appropriate place to play, would be from where the ball actually is....     

 

so lets say he dropped that ball in a place that would have given him such an advantage as to be a "serious breach" .   He is required to play from the right place,  where is that?  isn't that place where they found the ball?  

Edited January 16 by NMBob

[EdY]

Once the player couldn’t find his ball in the allotted time, and decided to drop, the dropped ball is now in play. Nothing else matters. 

[NMBob]

Seems like it might.  In a different issue of playing a provisional,  someone else can go find a ball you do not want to go look for and thus not be able to play your provisional because someone else found the first shot.   So someone else can find your ball. 

 

The story just said these guys turned around and he was dropping.  So in this case, if these guys who had turned around and saw him dropping,  knew where the ball was from the get go, why is there even a time clock?  the ball is not lost.  2 guys know where it is. 

Edited January 16 by NMBob

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, NMBob said:

it seems his players never agreed that it was virtually certain his ball was in the penalty area

 

The article says he had KVC. Given that we have no other real info to consider… we have to say that he had KVC.

 

14 minutes ago, NMBob said:

Seems like a rule change to something that makes more sense could be suggested.

 

Huh?

 

He dropped legally. That is the ball in play.

 

14 minutes ago, NMBob said:

The most appropriate place to play, would be from where the ball actually is…

 

No, that's a wrong ball at that point.

 

14 minutes ago, NMBob said:

so lets say he dropped that ball in a place that would have given him such an advantage as to be a "serious breach" .   He is required to play from the right place,  where is that?  isn't that place where they found the ball?  

 

I think you're going to have to be a lot more specific about the circumstances and so on for your hypothetical to get a response on that.

[EdY]

I didn’t see what happened nor did I read the exact details. So there are some assumptions I’m making and trying to piece together some things. 
 If playing partners knew where the ball was, why didn’t they say something before the player dropped? I’m assuming he did not intentionally want to incur a penalty and exceeded his allotted search time. After that, it doesn’t matter if someone finds your ball. You need to drop and the dropped ball is now in play. 

[NMBob]

the says the dq player thought he hit it in a penalty area.  it does not say the other players thought that  justbut that they just turned around and saw a drop.  And they knew his balkl was outside of the penalty area.   This (possibly) invokes the issue of a player dropping somewhere playing partners do not agree ever, that he should be dropping. 

[NMBob]

Quote

 

Since he was the last to hit his approach shot, both Creel and Kozan were up near the green when Lyras hit.

When they turned around, Lyras had dropped a ball in front of the penalty area and according to Creel, Kozan motioned that Lyras’ original ball was not in the water and playable. Lyras then picked up the ball he had just dropped and played the hole out

 

from the article.  Nothing says the other players ever even thought it was in the penalty area.  So he dropped without agreement of the pairing group. 

Edited January 16 by NMBob

[EdY]

1 minute ago, NMBob said:

the says the dq player thought he hit it in a penalty area.  it does not say the other players thought that  justbut that they just turned around and saw a drop.  And they knew his balkl was outside of the penalty area.   This (possibly) invokes the issue of a player dropping somewhere playing partners do not agree ever, that he should be dropping. 

Then u call a time out and get a rules official. 

[NMBob]

Quote

The article says he had KVC. Given that we have no other real info to consider… we have to say that he had KVC.

 

You have assumed away the issue.  The article says you have the real info that they know the ball is not in the penalty area.   That is the whole problem .  The second they turn around and immediately see him drop, they wave at him like "what are you doing..."

 

What is required for your KVC, only the one  player thoughts or also agreement from the players in the pairing?

Edited January 16 by NMBob

[sui generis]

39 minutes ago, NMBob said:

 

 

 

it seems his players never agreed that it was virtually certain his ball was in the penalty area, .....  doesn't matter though.....he now is required to play from a place he was never entitled to play?  Even though he hasn't taken a stroke at a ball?   Seems like a rule change to something that makes more sense could be suggested.   The most appropriate place to play, would be from where the ball actually is....     

 

so lets say he dropped that ball in a place that would have given him such an advantage as to be a "serious breach" .   He is required to play from the right place,  where is that?  isn't that place where they found the ball?  

 

0 for 4. If I were you I'd log out and go watch the Simpsons.

[NMBob]

9 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

0 for 4. If I were you I'd log out and go watch the Simpsons.

I have quoted the article,   You have referenced nothing.  Have a nice night.  

[EdY]

KVC is for the person who struck the ball. Not others in your group or fans or anyone else. Others may assist in finding it before time elapses but if that doesn’t happen, declare your ball is in the hazard and drop. Case closed. 
 

Happened in our club chp. Playing partner hit it into some trees that are in bounds and to this day, we’ve never NOT been able to find a ball in there. Small patch, pine straw, limbed up, u get the idea. 3 of us are on the other side of the fairway, hit our shots and in that time, the guy declares a lost ball, goes back the tee and rehits. I move to the other side of the fairway when I see his trajectory is on the same path as the first. I spot it, wait for him and point out his newly struck ball. Out of the corner of my eye, and about 30’ away, I see a ball. Ask him what he was playing and it is deemed it’s his first ball. I ask him what he wants me to do with it, implying throw it back or let him get it. At that moment the asst pro shows up. I head to the green. They’re talking. Whatever they said to each other, the guy plays his first ball. Long story about who said what but he gets DQ’d for playing the wrong ball. 
 

The moment the player declares HIS ball as lost, assuming time expired, the next ball out of his bag is in play the moment it is dropped or replayed from the previous spot. 

[st1800e]

41 minutes ago, EdY said:

At that moment the asst pro shows up.

Was the asst pro part of the “Committee”, or a designated rules official? 
 

 

 

Edited January 16 by st1800e

[EdY]

We had 2 asst pros roaming the course.  The head of the golf committee was on the course playing and the club pros are the rules officials. 

[st1800e]

18 minutes ago, EdY said:

We had 2 asst pros roaming the course.  The head of the golf committee was on the course playing and the club pros are the rules officials. 

Then it’s complicated.  I believe it’s  covered in Rule 20. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, EdY said:

The moment the player declares HIS ball as lost, assuming time expired, the next ball out of his bag is in play the moment it is dropped or replayed from the previous spot. 

 

Players can't declare a ball lost. Either the time lapses or… they play another ball under stroke and distance without declaring it a provisional, but they can't just say "that ball is lost" and it's lost.

[NMBob]

What is the rule , if any, about others in the group agreeing to a drop?   If one guy ties to take a drop that is way farther down the fairway before last crossing pealty area boundary, and closer to the green than what the rest of the paring thinks, that is a big issue.  It is not only what the player thought he saw, if all the rest of the paring think  he last cross farther back closer to the T box.  This is why I ask the questions about the rest of the group.

 

And how did any of what has been said, agree with the following.   The following would indicate the player was correct. 

 

this says that

 

1- making a stroke, not simply dropping, is what put that ball in play, contrary to the ruling issued if the article is correct,  and a lot of what has been stated here..  Rule 17.1d(3)2 says if he has not made a swing at the dropped ball and is aware of new information making the drop wrong, he must proceed under rule 14-5 and correct it, which is free of penalty since he had not made a stroke at the ball.

 

2 - and also references determining a drop area ..after consulting with other players in the group.  

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-of-golf/rule-17-interpretations.html

 

17.1d(3)/2 – Player Drops Ball Based on Estimate of Where the Ball Last Crossed Edge of Penalty Area That Turns Out to Be the Wrong Point

If the point where a ball last crossed the edge of a penalty area is not known, a player must use their reasonable judgment to determine the reference point.

Under Rule 1.3b(2), the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if that reference point turns out to be wrong. However, there are situations when, before the player has made a stroke, it becomes known that the reference point is wrong and this mistake must be corrected.

For example, in stroke play, it is virtually certain that a player’s ball is in a red penalty area. The player, having consulted with the other players in the group, estimates where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area. The player takes lateral relief and drops a ball in the relief area based on that reference point.

But before making a stroke at the dropped ball, one of the players in the group finds the player’s original ball in the penalty area in a position indicating that the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area approximately 20 yards closer to the hole than the reference point the player had estimated.

Because this information became known before the player made a stroke at the dropped ball, the player must correct the error under Rule 14.5 (Correcting Mistake Made in Substituting, Replacing, Dropping or Placing Ball). In doing so, the player must proceed under Rule 17.1d  or Rule 17.2a with respect to the correct reference point and may use any relief option under the relevant Rule (see Rule 14.5b(2)).

 

and how is it this guy was not correct in applying rule 14-5?

He substituted a ball or dropped in a wrong place, or a procedure that didn't actually apply and he may correct the mistake before the ball is played.    

14.5  Correcting Mistake Made in Substituting, Replacing, Dropping or Placing Ball

a. Player May Correct Mistake Before Ball Is Played

When a player has substituted another ball for the original ball when not allowed under the Rules or the player’s ball in play was replaced, dropped or placed (1) in a wrong way, (2) in a wrong place  or (3) by using a procedure that did not apply:

• The player may correct the mistake without penalty.

• But this is allowed only before the ball is played.

Edited January 16 by NMBob

[antip]

3 hours ago, NMBob said:

What is the rule , if any, about others in the group agreeing to a drop?   If one guy ties to take a drop that is way farther down the fairway before last crossing pealty area boundary, and closer to the green than what the rest of the paring thinks, that is a big issue.  It is not only what the player thought he saw, if all the rest of the paring think  he last cross farther back closer to the T box.  This is why I ask the questions about the rest of the group.

 

And how did any of what has been said, agree with the following.   The following would indicate the player was correct. 

 

this says that

 

1- making a stroke, not simply dropping, is what put that ball in play, contrary to the ruling issued if the article is correct,  and a lot of what has been stated here..  rule 14-5 addresses correcting substitution and drops in a wrong place to be corrected before a stroke is made

 

2 - and also references determing a drop area ..after consulting with other players in the group.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-of-golf/rule-17-interpretations.html

 

17.1d(3)/2 – Player Drops Ball Based on Estimate of Where the Ball Last Crossed Edge of Penalty Area That Turns Out to Be the Wrong Point

If the point where a ball last crossed the edge of a penalty area is not known, a player must use their reasonable judgment to determine the reference point.

Under Rule 1.3b(2), the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if that reference point turns out to be wrong. However, there are situations when, before the player has made a stroke, it becomes known that the reference point is wrong and this mistake must be corrected.

For example, in stroke play, it is virtually certain that a player’s ball is in a red penalty area. The player, having consulted with the other players in the group, estimates where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area. The player takes lateral relief and drops a ball in the relief area based on that reference point.

But before making a stroke at the dropped ball, one of the players in the group finds the player’s original ball in the penalty area in a position indicating that the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area approximately 20 yards closer to the hole than the reference point the player had estimated.

Because this information became known before the player made a stroke at the dropped ball, the player must correct the error under Rule 14.5 (Correcting Mistake Made in Substituting, Replacing, Dropping or Placing Ball). In doing so, the player must proceed under Rule 17.1d  or Rule 17.2a with respect to the correct reference point and may use any relief option under the relevant Rule (see Rule 14.5b(2)).

 

and how is it this guy was not correct in applying rule 14-5?

He substituted a ball or dropped in a wrong place, and he may correct the mistake before the ball is played.    

14.5  Correcting Mistake Made in Substituting, Replacing, Dropping or Placing Ball

a. Player May Correct Mistake Before Ball Is Played

When a player has substituted another ball for the original ball when not allowed under the Rules or the player’s ball in play was replaced, dropped or placed (1) in a wrong way, (2) in a wrong place  or (3) by using a procedure that did not apply:

• The player may correct the mistake without penalty.

• But this is allowed only before the ball is played.

There is so much rules confusion here. You really need to bring one question at a time.

The simple reason 14.5 has no relevance here is the player proceeded under an applicable rule when he put a ball in play under penalty area relief (because he had KVC). You cannot correct what you get right (at the time).

As others note, the KFT folk made the surprising error of confusing a wrong ball with a wrong place (serious breach) although the penalty is the same. 

[NMBob]

how can you say 14-5 doesnt apply when 17 1d32 says if you are taking that penalty drop and receive information you are in the wrong place before you make a stroke, you must use 14-5.   How is 171d32 not apply to this,  to the T?    In fact, how does what you just argued not conflict with the 171d32 rule itself and the example the rule  itself gives?  The rule example says they thought he dropped in the right place for a penalty area drop,  until after the drop they found the ball and now the ball dropped , but not stroked, cannot be played, he must use 14-5 with the new information/location.  This idea that KVC when the player first makes the drop, thus makes the penalty area drop irrevocable is a complete contradiction and violation of what rule 171d32 specifically says, is it not? 

 

 

 

Edited January 16 by NMBob

[Newby]

The apparent non-use of 17.1d(3)/2 is puzzling me.

 

What was the mistake he thought he had made?

 "Later on his first nine, Lyras realized he’d made a mistake,...."

 

Edited January 16 by Newby

[antip]

57 minutes ago, NMBob said:

how can you say 14-5 doesnt apply when 17 1d32 says if you are taking that penalty drop and receive information you are in the wrong place before you make a stroke, you must use 14-5.   How is 171d32 not apply to this,  to the T?    In fact, how does what you just argued not conflict with the 171d32 rule itself and the example the rule  itself gives?  The rule example says they thought he dropped in the right place, until after the drop they found the ball and now the ball dropped , but not stroked, cannot be played, he must use 14-5 with the new information/location.  This idea that KVC when the player first makes the drop, thus makes the drop irrevocable is a complete contradiction and violation of what rule 171d32 specifically says, is it not? 

 

 

 

14.5 did not allow the player to lift the subbed ball and proceed with the original ball subsequently found in the penalty area. This is the point I made. The action the player took was not permitted, period. The player proceeded with a wrong ball, as discussed above and got DQed. This is what actually happened.

 

Your post above is getting into a different issue - what the player should have done when the new information arrived - the new info being finding the original ball in the penalty area. The player needed to assess whether the dropped ball now in play was in a correct place - was the estimated point of last crossing the penalty area sufficiently different from what he used to require the player to proceed with the substituted ball by lifting it and redropping it in the correct relief implied by the position of the found original ball. This is the stuff of clarification 17.1d(3)/2 - but the player went in a different wrong direction and we are given no information to guide whether that clarification was directly relevant. 

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, NMBob said:

how can you say 14-5 doesnt apply when 17 1d32 says if you are taking that penalty drop and receive information you are in the wrong place before you make a stroke, you must use 14-5.   How is 171d32 not apply to this,  to the T?    In fact, how does what you just argued not conflict with the 171d32 rule itself and the example the rule  itself gives?  The rule example says they thought he dropped in the right place, until after the drop they found the ball and now the ball dropped , but not stroked, cannot be played, he must use 14-5 with the new information/location.  This idea that KVC when the player first makes the drop, thus makes the drop irrevocable is a complete contradiction and violation of what rule 171d32 specifically says, is it not? 

 

Why do you think the player would have dropped in a wrong place? I'd argue that only very seldomly does a ball found after taking relief affect the actual reference point and the subsequent relief area.

[antip]

40 minutes ago, Newby said:

The apparent non-use of 17.1d(3)/2 is puzzling me.

It didn't arise because the player screwed up and proceeded with the original ball.

[Newby]

11 minutes ago, antip said:

It didn't arise because the player screwed up and proceeded with the original ball.

Do we know where the OB was found? In or out of the PA?