Fixing the driver snap hooks

[romeyjdogg]

Hey folks,

 

Got fitted for a G430 Max (not 10k) with Tour Chrome 2.0 65X and have had it out on the course a few times. I'm getting more snap hooks than I've ever seen, diving left out of the air. This seems exclusively when I try to step on the driver and hit it hard. Typical transition is moderate, but I load it and yank on the handle a lot more when I try and step on on.

 

For some reference, irons are DG X100 TI, 7i: 90mph, driver: 108-110).

 

Looking at other threads on similar topics, looks like I should explore whiteboard type profiles. I have a TS2 hybrid that has an Evenflow White 6.0 that has been decent, but I tend to swing the hybrid a lot smoother. Seems like all my other clubs have shafts with stiffer tip sections and from what I'm seeing, the Ping Tour Chrome has a softer / more active tip section.

 

Am I on the right track here? Any recommendations for shafts to try? In my fitting session, they also put me into a Titleist U505 utility with a Hzrdus RDX Black 6.0 that was launching high and on target line.

Edited May 5 by romeyjdogg

[bladestriker]

Kai'li white,  Tensei white

Might also be a spin issue, as in not enough driver spin

[romeyjdogg]

13 minutes ago, bladestriker said:

Kai'li white,  Tensei white

Might also be a spin issue, as in not enough driver spin

Yeah that's a good call. During the fitting, we were outdoors on the range. Spin was low even with the max head, but fitter was thinking it may have been exacerbated from being downwind. The toe strikes were definitely too low (1500-1800), but there they seemed to stay in the air and online. Centered strikes were low 2000s, but borderline too low.

 

I guess I didn't do a good enough job of vetting the setup by hitting different shot shapes and taking more aggressive swings. Lesson learned 

Edited May 5 by romeyjdogg

[bnperrone]

Ping Tour shafts are REALLY stiff. Did you try it in Stiff? Maybe it’s just too stout and your response is producing it. 
 

I can happily play plenty of X shafts but not those. 

[romeyjdogg]

1 hour ago, bnperrone said:

Ping Tour shafts are REALLY stiff. Did you try it in Stiff? Maybe it’s just too stout and your response is producing it. 
 

I can happily play plenty of X shafts but not those. 

Fitter didn't even give me the stiff to try in Tour Chrome. Went straight to X. The thing that makes me believe this isn't the case is that my stock swings are predictable ball flights (straight or slight draw). It's only when I go after it that it seems to give me crazy club head dynamics.

 

Everything I read said the Chrome was softer than black.

Edited May 6 by romeyjdogg

[ProV1Killa]

7 hours ago, romeyjdogg said:

Yeah that's a good call. During the fitting, we were outdoors on the range. Spin was low even with the max head, but fitter was thinking it may have been exacerbated from being downwind. The toe strikes were definitely too low (1500-1800), but there they seemed to stay in the air and online. Centered strikes were low 2000s, but borderline too low.

 

I guess I didn't do a good enough job of vetting the setup by hitting different shot shapes and taking more aggressive swings. Lesson learned 

With that shaft if it were a shaft flex issue I would expect the bad miss to start right a curve more right.  

 

When you "step on it" are you also trying shallow the club and deliver in to out to hit a draw?  With the low spin numbers off the toe my first guess is you're getting a bit stuck and handsy to catch up.

[romeyjdogg]

16 minutes ago, ProV1Killa said:

With that shaft if it were a shaft flex issue I would expect the bad miss to start right a curve more right.  

 

When you "step on it" are you also trying shallow the club and deliver in to out to hit a draw?  With the low spin numbers off the toe my first guess is you're getting a bit stuck and handsy to catch up.

My typical path is in to out - I play a draw as stock shot, but feels like I get more steep when I pull on the handle harder. Not sure how that translates feel vs real, but I would guess it neutralizes my path more.

 

Fwiw, I came from a Mavrik with rogue white 60 stiff (fitted when speed was much lower) and had some lefts now and again, but nothing like what I'm experiencing now with the Tour Chrome.

[bnperrone]

10 hours ago, romeyjdogg said:

Fitter didn't even give me the stiff to try in Tour Chrome. Went straight to X. The thing that makes me believe this isn't the case is that my stock swings are predictable ball flights (straight or slight draw). It's only when I go after it that it seems to give me crazy club head dynamics.

 

Everything I read said the Chrome was softer than black.

You mention the prior Rogue White somewhere. Do you always naturally gravitate toward mid-soft profiles? Or is that all your fitter hands you? 
 

Over the years I haven’t played very many different driver shafts, but I’ve never gotten along with a mid-soft profile. I’ve had shafts that hinge around the handle, linear profiles, and now tip-active. In that order as I’ve gotten older. Never a mid-soft.

 

I’ve got the tour chrome 2.0 in a g430 hybrid and it’s the most automatic club for me at this point but I can’t stand the chrome in driver. I didn’t particularly care for the black either in the driver, which kinda surprised me. To me it’s not that there is some huge overall difference in stiffness, but more a function of WHERE the difference is. 

[romeyjdogg]

19 minutes ago, bnperrone said:

You mention the prior Rogue White somewhere. Do you always naturally gravitate toward mid-soft profiles? Or is that all your fitter hands you? 
 

Over the years I haven’t played very many different driver shafts, but I’ve never gotten along with a mid-soft profile. I’ve had shafts that hinge around the handle, linear profiles, and now tip-active. In that order as I’ve gotten older. Never a mid-soft.

 

I’ve got the tour chrome 2.0 in a g430 hybrid and it’s the most automatic club for me at this point but I can’t stand the chrome in driver. I didn’t particularly care for the black either in the driver, which kinda surprised me. To me it’s not that there is some huge overall difference in stiffness, but more a function of WHERE the difference is. 

Not specifically, no. The fitter gave me Rogue White 4 years ago when I was fitted for full bag. Rogue White for driver and Project X LZ for irons, so similar profiles I think. My swing was not great then, so honestly he probably just gave me what I could make center face contact with.

 

Latest fitting gave me X100 for irons and either Tensei White or Hzrdus Black RDX for my utility iron. Tensei launched a lot lower for me than RDX, so I went with RDX. I know these are all different shaft profiles, so no real pattern is standing out to me.

Edited May 6 by romeyjdogg

[grochol17]

My $0.02:

 

When you go after it, one of two things is happening... either you're making a slight change in your swing that is leading to a snap hook (in my case, I'll sway to the right trying to load up more and then I can't off my right side) or, when you're being a bit more aggressive, the feel of the shaft is off, causing you to try and compensate for it.  Maybe when you go after it the shaft feels too soft and, subconsciously, you feel the need to use more hand action at impact, resulting in the hook. 

 

If it is the latter, changing the profile of the shaft might work for you if you get something with better feel, but that shaft might end up feeling worse on your normal swings.  In the past, have you used a shaft that worked for you on both smooth and aggressive driver swings?

[romeyjdogg]

8 minutes ago, grochol17 said:

My $0.02:

 

When you go after it, one of two things is happening... either you're making a slight change in your swing that is leading to a snap hook (in my case, I'll sway to the right trying to load up more and then I can't off my right side) or, when you're being a bit more aggressive, the feel of the shaft is off, causing you to try and compensate for it.  Maybe when you go after it the shaft feels too soft and, subconsciously, you feel the need to use more hand action at impact, resulting in the hook. 

 

If it is the latter, changing the profile of the shaft might work for you if you get something with better feel, but that shaft might end up feeling worse on your normal swings.  In the past, have you used a shaft that worked for you on both smooth and aggressive driver swings?

I think you nailed it. My typical swing has an active hand release (think Tiger hands releasing and arms rolling over post impact), so when I swing is harder, I probably have more of that going on.

 

The only other shaft I've had in driver is the Rogue White, which seemed to act more predictable on harder swings. Don't get me wrong, I had snappers with that one too, but not as often.

 

Has me wondering if I just don't get along with more active tipped shafts because of the way I release the club head.

Edited May 6 by romeyjdogg

[Urb]

Dunno the profile on the Ping shafts, but Rogue White is a classic blue board design.  Stiff handle (good for yanking on), mid soft, stiffer into tip.

 

It's the most common profile out there, every shaft brand makes one.  

 

Ventus Blue or Red

Diamana TB

Tensei Pro 1k blue

Kai'li blue

Almost any Graphite design shaft

Or just about any shaft that says blue or is colored blue.

[petep5280]

What is your desired flight?  Are you trying to draw and swing path is the problem?  Are you trying to fade and club face is the problem?

[Lord Helmet]

14 hours ago, ProV1Killa said:

With that shaft if it were a shaft flex issue I would expect the bad miss to start right a curve more right.  

 

When you "step on it" are you also trying shallow the club and deliver in to out to hit a draw?  With the low spin numbers off the toe my first guess is you're getting a bit stuck and handsy to catch up.

 

This is correct and a likely culprit.  Body is getting separated and you are getting way handsy to catch up.  

 

Slow the swing down, stay connected, and you will see better results.  I really do not think its a shaft issue.  

[romeyjdogg]

58 minutes ago, petep5280 said:

What is your desired flight?  Are you trying to draw and swing path is the problem?  Are you trying to fade and club face is the problem?

 

49 minutes ago, Lord Helmet said:

 

This is correct and a likely culprit.  Body is getting separated and you are getting way handsy to catch up.  

 

Slow the swing down, stay connected, and you will see better results.  I really do not think its a shaft issue.  

Draw is definitely the desired shape. I'm thinking is likely what Helmet mentioned - being out of sync and setup having ball a bit too far forward. Will tinker with it. Thanks for the thoughts

[petep5280]

27 minutes ago, romeyjdogg said:

 

Draw is definitely the desired shape. I'm thinking is likely what Helmet mentioned - being out of sync and setup having ball a bit too far forward. Will tinker with it. Thanks for the thoughts

 

Is it strictly a snap hook, or will it occasionally slice as well?  

[romeyjdogg]

20 minutes ago, petep5280 said:

 

Is it strictly a snap hook, or will it occasionally slice as well?  

Slice is very rare, but I get maybe one a round or every other round.

Edited May 6 by romeyjdogg

[petep5280]

2 minutes ago, romeyjdogg said:

Slice is very rare, but I get maybe one a round or every other round.

 

Sounds like my miss. I jump out of my swing which turns an inside our path to an OTT with a closed face I hit a mile left.  It's a shank with irons. 

 

Round killers. 

[DaveGoodrich]

Are those snap hooks toe strikes?  I know I sometimes "pull back" too hard when I go after it, resulting in hitting it out on the toe.    I'm just saying, don't assume its a shaft profile issue, when it could be an impact location issue.  That could be more related to static weight/swing weight/shaft length, etc.  As usual, Howards Driver DIY is probably worth a look.

 

 

[romeyjdogg]

6 minutes ago, DaveGoodrich said:

Are those snap hooks toe strikes?  I know I sometimes "pull back" too hard when I go after it, resulting in hitting it out on the toe.    I'm just saying, don't assume its a shaft profile issue, when it could be an impact location issue.  That could be more related to static weight/swing weight/shaft length, etc.  As usual, Howards Driver DIY is probably worth a look.

 

 

I'm 99% sure these are toe strikes because they dive out of the sky (probably due to very low spin). And yes, that's the feeling I get, like I'm pushing aggressively off the lead leg, so maybe that's just pulling the face left too much causing strike point to move way out of the toe.

 

Thank you very much for the link, I'll check it out.

Edited May 6 by romeyjdogg

[GolfTurkey]

Have you tried moving the weight to the fade position (will help the ball gear less off toe strikes) and flattening the lie angle?

[romeyjdogg]

40 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

Have you tried moving the weight to the fade position (will help the ball gear less off toe strikes) and flattening the lie angle?

Yes, I moved the weight from neutral to fade exactly for the reason you stated. It seemed to help initially, but then last weekend happened....

 

I have tried a bunch of settings, but probably need to give them some real time on the course. However, I think you're right, I should try the flat settings. I play my irons 2 deg flat anyways, so probably makes sense.

[EddieEdwards]

Try lofting the driver down. It may open the face a bit and make it more fade biased.

[tippethor]

How about switching to a high spin ball just to see if that helps, its cheaper than a new shaft.

[romeyjdogg]

6 hours ago, tippethor said:

How about switching to a high spin ball just to see if that helps, its cheaper than a new shaft.

Yeah that's a good idea !

[mgoblue83]

My take is this is about 80% swing, 10% shaft, 10% head.

 

A shaft change cannot and will not turn a duck hook into a playable shot. It can help with feel, consistency and efficiency. 

 

Duck hooks are from a bad face to path relationship and/or not enough loft and spin. 

 

In order:

Work on getting your swing more neutral

Find a shaft that lets you hit the sweet spot consistently

Increase the loft of your driver head or try a different head if you still don't have enough spin. 

[romeyjdogg]

Something that just occurred to me is that when I got the driver from Ping, I thought it felt really light compared to my previous gamer (Mavrik Max / Rogue White 60S / stock SW is D2) and vs. what I swung at my fitting. When I handed it to one of my friends, he made the same comment about it being really light. I'm playing it at 45" length, so I'm wondering if the swing weight is off - the insert from Ping says D3, but I'll have to check that to make sure.

Edited May 8 by romeyjdogg

[romeyjdogg]

Well, in case anybody is wondering, I just swing weighted my driver using 3 of the online calculators and it's at C9.

 

This makes a lot more sense now. I guess Ping cut the shaft, but never tweaked the adjustable weight amount in the back? Pretty odd - I assume they would swing weight every club before it goes out.

[phizzy30]

11 minutes ago, romeyjdogg said:

Well, in case anybody is wondering, I just swing weighted my driver using 3 of the online calculators and it's at C9.

 

This makes a lot more sense now. I guess Ping cut the shaft, but never tweaked the adjustable weight amount in the back? Pretty odd - I assume they would swing weight every club before it goes out.

My buddy who works for the USGA but used be a Srixon rep has done 1000's of fittings and has seen the pattern of heavier swing weight tends to produce more of an in to out path and vice versa.  However, he says that this is not set in stone and can in fact do the the opposite.  I think it's a real possibility that your driver at C9 may be influencing you to swing too much in to out.  Try adding some lead tape to the sole and see if that helps a bit.  I'm not saying that this will get you to swing out to in all the sudden, but it's worth trying. 

Edited May 10 by phizzy30

[romeyjdogg]

7 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

My buddy who works for the USGA but used be a Srixon rep has done 1000's of fittings and has seen the pattern of heavier swing weight tends to produce more of an in to out path and vice versa.  However, he says that this is not set in stone and can in fact do the the opposite.  I think it's a real possibility that your driver at C9 may be influencing you to swing too much in to out.  Try adding some lead tape to the sole and see if that helps a bit.  I'm not saying that this will get you to swing out to in all the sudden, but it's worth trying. 

Yeah it's definitely affecting my delivery of the club to some degree. Since I believe it to be toe strikes causing the hooks (not necessarily being overly from the inside), I'll experiment with adding some lead tape to get it back to the D2/D3 range, then likely ask Ping for the correct back weight since they screwed up.