is this a penalty in two man better ball?

[manymulligan]

would it be a penalty if one partner in a two man better ball medal tournament deliberately putted in the opposite direction of the hole and try to have it stop in the line of his partner and then putt from there toward the hole so as to give his partner a read on his putt?  this might occur  if one player was putting for a seven and his partner was putting for a birdie.  The first player's putt for an 8 wasn't going to count anyway so his only reason not to pick up his ball would be to do this.  I have read some people's posts who have contradictory opinions on this.  my opinion is that there must be a rule against this.

[rogolf]

18 minutes ago, manymulligan said:

would it be a penalty if one partner in a two man better ball medal tournament deliberately putted in the opposite direction of the hole and try to have it stop in the line of his partner and then putt from there toward the hole so as to give his partner a read on his putt?  this might occur  if one player was putting for a seven and his partner was putting for a birdie.  The first player's putt for an 8 wasn't going to count anyway so his only reason not to pick up his ball would be to do this.  I have read some people's posts who have contradictory opinions on this.  my opinion is that there must be a rule against this.

YES!  That is considered a serious breach of misconduct under Rule 1.2 and would result in the side being disqualified from the competition (Rule 23.9b).

 

Edited June 4 by rogolf

[Augster]

When you pull these shenanigans in a two man best ball it needs to be more discrete, and usually with a chip. 
 

Deliberately putting well past the hole, or away from the hole, to help your partner is going to get you the DQ when it’s reported. One just has to hope the FC’s they are playing with don’t report it. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

Deliberately putting well past the hole, or away from the hole, to help your partner is going to get you the DQ when it’s reported. 

 

To be precise, the side gets DQ'd, not just the player, as rogolf pointed out.

 

Edited June 5 by Mr. Bean

[James Joseph]

💯 yes. 

[Newby]

On 6/5/2024 at 12:18 AM, manymulligan said:

 a two man better ball 

Four-Ball?

[antip]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

Four-Ball?

Two man better ball is a much more sensible name than four ball, but I too live in a part of the world that uses the term four ball instead. Two person better ball would be even better. 

[KirkNo-yes]

On 6/4/2024 at 6:36 PM, rogolf said:

YES!  That is considered a serious breach of misconduct under Rule 1.2 and would result in the side being disqualified from the competition (Rule 23.9b).

 

I don't think it is.  It may be breaking the spirit of the rule but you CANNOT prove he hit the putt too hard. The problem is Intent. You can't prove intent on this.  what if you are putting for bogey on the opposite side of the hole and you say I'll clean it up because your partner is still "out" and you hit a firm putt and it misses and goes past your playing partner by three inches who is putting for par from four feet? Now YOU are still technically out and there is nothing to say your partner doesn't miss and miss the comeback as well. Now, you didn't cheat but your opponents may not know that? do you believe you should be penalized? I don't.  This isn't much different than when two players (opponents or partners) are off the green and one hits a chip  and leaves it about 2 feet from the hole. the other player is in his stance and ready and the player says you're fine (meaning you don't need to rush to mark it) and the other player stops and let's the player play because he is off the green. Now had the second guy said "don't mark it" then it's a breach of the rules but by saying you're fine he is being courteous to the player and saying no need to rush. This is a very gray area but only one of those ways is explicitly against the rules. That is why there are so many decisions on the rules of golf and it's never clear cut.  

[Newby]

10.2b(2) ?

[Colin L]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:28 AM, antip said:

Two man better ball is a much more sensible name than four ball, but I too live in a part of the world that uses the term four ball instead. Two person better ball would be even better. 

As it's labelled four-ball in the Definitions, I guess the term  should be used everywhere in the world.

 

You often see four-ball better ball  or 4BBB  in my wee corner of the world.

 

Edited July 10 by Colin L

[antip]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

As it's labelled four-ball in the Definitions, I guess the term  should be used everywhere in the world.

 

You often see four-ball better ball  or 4BBB  in my wee corner of the world.

 

Here too Colin. But hard as I look I can only see two balls in play for a side. So this is my little grievance about misnomers (plain English 'stupidity') embedded in the history of the game. Sui has his grievance about 'GUR' which is not actually ground under repair. That some moron screwed up in centuries past does not, to me, seem to be a good reason to keep saluting the misnomers.

[Colin L]

3 minutes ago, antip said:

Here too Colin. But hard as I look I can only see two balls in play for a side. So this is my little grievance about misnomers (plain English 'stupidity') embedded in the history of the game. Sui has his grievance about 'GUR' which is not actually ground under repair. That some moron screwed up in centuries past does not, to me, seem to be a good reason to keep saluting the misnomers.

But when I play this format, I see four balls  in play.    I'm not seeing any difference in appropriateness between  referring  to two balls in play  per side and four balls in play per match/stroke play group.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, KirkNo-yes said:

I don't think it is.  It may be breaking the spirit of the rule but you CANNOT prove he hit the putt too hard. The problem is Intent. You can't prove intent on this.  what if you are putting for bogey on the opposite side of the hole and you say I'll clean it up because your partner is still "out" and you hit a firm putt and it misses and goes past your playing partner by three inches who is putting for par from four feet? Now YOU are still technically out and there is nothing to say your partner doesn't miss and miss the comeback as well. Now, you didn't cheat but your opponents may not know that? do you believe you should be penalized? I don't.  This isn't much different than when two players (opponents or partners) are off the green and one hits a chip  and leaves it about 2 feet from the hole. the other player is in his stance and ready and the player says you're fine (meaning you don't need to rush to mark it) and the other player stops and let's the player play because he is off the green. Now had the second guy said "don't mark it" then it's a breach of the rules but by saying you're fine he is being courteous to the player and saying no need to rush. This is a very gray area but only one of those ways is explicitly against the rules. That is why there are so many decisions on the rules of golf and it's never clear cut.  

The OP said he putted the opposite direction of the hole. Clear DQ.

[antip]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

But when I play this format, I see four balls  in play.    I'm not seeing any difference in appropriateness between  referring  to two balls in play  per side and four balls in play per match/stroke play group.

You clearly see things more clearly than me 🙂. Please explain now, on the same reasoning, why isn't singles in fours called four ball also? Or singles match play called pairs or two ball?

[Newby]

5 minutes ago, antip said:

You clearly see things more clearly than me 🙂. Please explain now, on the same reasoning, why isn't singles in fours called four ball also? Or singles match play called pairs or two ball?

'Singles' stroke play can be played by 1 or more (theoretically infinite?) players.

'Singles' match play can only be played by 2 players

Edited July 10 by Newby

[Augster]

On 7/9/2024 at 10:46 PM, KirkNo-yes said:

I don't think it is.  It may be breaking the spirit of the rule but you CANNOT prove he hit the putt too hard. The problem is Intent. You can't prove intent on this.  what if you are putting for bogey on the opposite side of the hole and you say I'll clean it up because your partner is still "out" and you hit a firm putt and it misses and goes past your playing partner by three inches who is putting for par from four feet? Now YOU are still technically out and there is nothing to say your partner doesn't miss and miss the comeback as well. Now, you didn't cheat but your opponents may not know that? do you believe you should be penalized? I don't.  This isn't much different than when two players (opponents or partners) are off the green and one hits a chip  and leaves it about 2 feet from the hole. the other player is in his stance and ready and the player says you're fine (meaning you don't need to rush to mark it) and the other player stops and let's the player play because he is off the green. Now had the second guy said "don't mark it" then it's a breach of the rules but by saying you're fine he is being courteous to the player and saying no need to rush. This is a very gray area but only one of those ways is explicitly against the rules. That is why there are so many decisions on the rules of golf and it's never clear cut.  

Did you even read the OP? Simplest DQ ever. 

[Colin L]

17 hours ago, antip said:

You clearly see things more clearly than me 🙂. Please explain now, on the same reasoning, why isn't singles in fours called four ball also? Or singles match play called pairs or two ball?

I dare say there must be some blurriness when you see things upside down, being an antipodean. All that blood rushing to the head 🙃  

 

In truth, I have not much by way of an answer.  Words are what they are for whatever historic reasons and can  evolve in meaning, go in and out of fashion, disappear and in many instances we have synonyms  to choose from.   But when it comes to matters under regulation like golf  (and excuse me for mentioning for others what you already know better than I),  there has to be the clarity of a word being narrowly defined.   Hence we have words like lost and unplayable which, as defined, can defy their meaning in ordinary parlance.  I think lawyers have a word for it, but thankfully I can't remember it.

 

The format is called four-ball because that is what it is called.  Not so much an upside down explanation; more a circular one. 

 

 

 

[KirkNo-yes]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

Did you even read the OP? Simplest DQ ever. 

First off wise Word not allowed yes, I guess I didn't understand the opposite direction because I've never seen anyone attempt that.  I have seen people do what I described tons of times which is what I thought he was saying 

[rogolf]

58 minutes ago, KirkNo-yes said:

First off wise Word not allowed yes, I guess I didn't understand the opposite direction because I've never seen anyone attempt that.  I have seen people do what I described tons of times which is what I thought he was saying 

The simplest way for the opponents to deal with that ignorant behaviour is to concede the next stroke, knock the ball away or pick it up and hand it to the player.

Besides, there is now Rule 23.8 which prevents the partner from standing behind the player to gain any information for the partner's next stroke.

Edited July 11 by rogolf

[KirkNo-yes]

9 hours ago, rogolf said:

The simplest way for the opponents to deal with that ignorant behaviour is to concede the next stroke, knock the ball away or pick it up and hand it to the player.

Besides, there is now Rule 23.8 which prevents the partner from standing behind the player to gain any information for the partner's next stroke.

 You've never been allowed to stand behind your playing partner as they make a stroke but you can stand 2-3' to the side and soon as it's struck you can step behind them.  You can stand behind your opponent and watch however. 

[rogolf]

50 minutes ago, KirkNo-yes said:

 You've never been allowed to stand behind your playing partner as they make a stroke but you can stand 2-3' to the side and soon as it's struck you can step behind them.  You can stand behind your opponent and watch however. 

Please define "never" and provide a Rule number which prohibited that prior to 2023.

[KirkNo-yes]

18 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Please define "never" and provide a Rule number which prohibited that prior to 2023.

Rule 14-2b 

 

https://www.usga.org/clubhouse/2016-ungated/05-ungated/playing-by-the-rules--manage-four-ball-matches.html#:~:text=It's also OK to help,( Rule 14-2b).

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, KirkNo-yes said:

Rule 14-2b 

 

https://www.usga.org/clubhouse/2016-ungated/05-ungated/playing-by-the-rules--manage-four-ball-matches.html#:~:text=It's also OK to help,( Rule 14-2b).

Great, thanks.

[st1800e]

4 hours ago, KirkNo-yes said:

You've never been allowed to stand behind your playing partner as they make a stroke but you can stand 2-3' to the side and soon as it's struck you can step behind them.

It’s also OK to help your partner line up before he or she makes a stroke, but it’s important to take two or three big steps away from the extension of the line of play behind the ball.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, st1800e said:

It’s also OK to help your partner line up before he or she makes a stroke, but it’s important to take two or three big steps away from the extension of the line of play behind the ball.

 

We know you're not saying that you can help your partner line up their shot, and that you only have to step away before they make a stroke… because that stuff went the way of the dodo back in 2019. No more lining players up, for a full stroke or a putt. By caddies, partners… 

 

The LPGA adapted quickly, I was happy to see. 😛 

[st1800e]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

 

We know you're not saying that you can help your partner line up their shot, and that you only have to step away before they make a stroke… because that stuff went the way of the dodo back in 2019. No more lining players up, for a full stroke or a putt. By caddies, partners… 

 

The LPGA adapted quickly, I was happy to see. 😛 

I was responding to @KirkNo-yes who quoted something from the USGA from 2016. The point of my post that you partially quoted, is that  he previously stated, step 2-3 feet away was sufficient , USGA said take 2 or 3 “big steps” away in that quote/link.   
Regardless, yes, (as we all know what the current ruling is) the player must “reset” before hitting  the shot.  

[davep043]

On 7/11/2024 at 3:19 AM, Colin L said:

The format is called four-ball because that is what it is called.  Not so much an upside down explanation; more a circular one. 

I think this term relates to the olden days.  I'm not sure where I heard or read this, but I'll relate the story as I remember it.  In the early days, almost all golf was match play, as can be deduced by reading many of the old versions of the Rules.  Golf balls were really expensive, and many (most) matches with four players were played by two sides, two players per side, each side playing a single (expensive) golf ball.  Four golfers playing like that was quite logically called a foursome. It was relatively uncommon for players to each play their own ball, but when that was done, a different term was needed for that style of competition.  It seems logical to me to call it a fourball, because four balls were indeed being used in a single match.  Those two terms and their specific definitions within the Rules remain to this day.

 

As I said, I can't find references, I don't claim that this is completely accurate, but it seems possible.  For the record, the first mention of a "four ball match" I can find is in the 1933 Rules of Golf, and is defined essentially the same as we play four ball matches now.  A "better ball match" is defined as one player playing against the better score of two or more players.

[Noles]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:18 PM, manymulligan said:

would it be a penalty if one partner in a two man better ball medal tournament deliberately putted in the opposite direction of the hole and try to have it stop in the line of his partner and then putt from there toward the hole so as to give his partner a read on his putt?  this might occur  if one player was putting for a seven and his partner was putting for a birdie.  The first player's putt for an 8 wasn't going to count anyway so his only reason not to pick up his ball would be to do this.  I have read some people's posts who have contradictory opinions on this.  my opinion is that there must be a rule against this.

Just concede the putt for 8 prior to his putting it.  problem solved

[Augster]

12 hours ago, Noles said:

Just concede the putt for 8 prior to his putting it.  problem solved

No concessions in 4-ball medal (stroke) play. 

[rogolf]

32 minutes ago, Augster said:

No concessions in 4-ball medal (stroke) play. 

No, but there is the general penalty in Rule 23.9 (breach helps partners play), which may be applied to both players in certain circumstances, and disqualification of the side for breach of Rule 1.2 (Conduct Expected of All Players).