Cameron Young shoots 59, so…………

[GoGoErky]

2 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

But it's not compatible with some swings that require passive arms and hands.  Passive does not mean inactive.

what’s does passive mean to you in a swing. And what good instructor is teaching passive arms?

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

13 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Go to the range and watch all the massively OTT guys swing  they're pretty smooth but completely out of sequence for a decent swing. They generally dont look like they suffered a whole body spasm to start the swing.

Agreed. Smoothness is very often a bandaid for poor sequencing. You can see that in players that completely lose their mechanics when they have to hit the ball hard. 

[nikos74]

8 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

what’s does passive mean to you in a swing. And what good instructor is teaching passive arms?

 

 

To me it means from the ground up sequencing with no body part dominating over another.

 

Don't really care who teaches it, but there should be plenty that do.

[TheDeanAbides]

32 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

But it's not compatible with some swings that require passive arms and hands.  Passive does not mean inactive.

No swing. That's ZERO, none, nada, require passive arms or hands. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

To me it means from the ground up sequencing with no body part dominating over another.

 

Don't really care who teaches it, but there should be plenty that do.

Sigh. EVERY swing works from the ground up (unless you're hovering an inch above the turf). This is again you showing your lack of understanding of what happens in a golf swing. A golfer may focus attention on their lower body, but if they have a well sequenced swing then the arms and hands are very active. If you try to leave them passive they will end up out of sequence and stuck. This is not a debate, but what is measurably and easily noticably accurate. 

 

We see countless swings posted here, and, no doubt, Monte and the other teachers see them daily on the range, of ams who think the way you do because of terribly cliched information. Those golfers are nearly all stuck, ott, stalled pivot and then a flip with the hands to save. They would nearly all be much better learning to speed up their arm swing anf learn to slow their shoulders in transition. 

Edited Tuesday at 12:02 PM by TheDeanAbides

[nikos74]

13 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

No swing. That's ZERO, none, nada, require passive arms or hands. 

The one plane swing certainly does.

 

And I would assume most lower and midcore swings use the same method.  I don't hear many instructors saying pull the club down with your hands at the start of the transition.  When the shoulders turn the arms automatically go along for the ride.

Edited Tuesday at 11:03 AM by nikos74

[GoGoErky]

26 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

To me it means from the ground up sequencing with no body part dominating over another.

 

Don't really care who teaches it, but there should be plenty that do.

Literally all swings use the ground because we are standing on it. You have no choice but to use ground. Now whether someone uses is properly or not is a different story.

 

Nobody teaches it because it’s bad swing mechanics. We know what happens in the swing because it’s been measured over and over. 

only those who lack any knowledge of the swing would thins it should be taught

 
the more you post the more you show your ignorance of the swing and prove you are trolling at this point 

Edited Tuesday at 11:04 AM by GoGoErky

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

We see countless swings posted here, and, no doubt, Monte and the other teachers see them daily on the range, of ams who think the way you do because of terribly cliched information. Those golfers are nearly all stuck, ott, stalled pivot and then a flip with the hands to save. They would nearly all be much better learning to speed up their arm swing anf learn to slow their shoulders in transition. 

 

In my experience, when you're forced to use the arms late like you've described, you often FEEL like it's a much more "armsy" swing or a "handsy" swing at the bottom… because they've been too passive too early.

 

When you first learn to "use your arms" more quickly (immediately) from the top, it feels like you're making an "arms swing" at first, but as you get into it… it begins to feel like you're using your arms less (while your clubhead speed often increases).

 

In other words, the golfers trying to have "passive" arms/hands are forced to use them more late and thus often feel the "armsiest/handsiest" through the ball.

[TheDeanAbides]

34 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

The one plane swing certainly does.

 

And I would assume most lower and midcore swings use the same method.  I don't hear many instructors saying pull the club down with your hands at the start of the transition.  When the shoulders turn the arms automatically go along for the ride.

Just wrong. 

[SNIPERBBB]

39 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

The one plane swing certainly does.

 

And I would assume most lower and midcore swings use the same method.  I don't hear many instructors saying pull the club down with your hands at the start of the transition.  When the shoulders turn the arms automatically go along for the ride.

"letting the arms go along with the ride" is a recipe for the arms being left behind and major flippage. I was a prime example of that not all that long ago. You cant even hit the ball with the so-called passive arms. You wont come within a foot of it because your arms will never drop.

[TheDeanAbides]

10 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

"letting the arms go along with the ride" is a recipe for the arms being left behind and major flippage. I was a prime example of that not all that long ago. You cant even hit the ball with the so-called passive arms. You wont come within a foot of it because your arms will never drop.

100%. I also fell for that absolute nonsense and saw countless others doing the same. 

[nikos74]

38 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

100%. I also fell for that absolute nonsense and saw countless others doing the same. 

It's not nonsense.  You have to begin moving pressure to the lead foot as soon as the transition starts, that will encourage the hips and shoulders to open up, and eventually square the body and clubface to the ball. 

 

The follow through is important to ensure pressure and weight keep moving forward so that rotation does not stall at some point and the arms take over.  I learned that the hard way.

Edited Tuesday at 12:40 PM by nikos74

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

But it's not compatible with some swings that require passive arms and hands.  Passive does not mean inactive.

 

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

To me it means from the ground up sequencing with no body part dominating over another.

 

Don't really care who teaches it, but there should be plenty that do.

 

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

The one plane swing certainly does.

 

And I would assume most lower and midcore swings use the same method.  I don't hear many instructors saying pull the club down with your hands at the start of the transition.  When the shoulders turn the arms automatically go along for the ride.

I think *you* think you're saying things that make sense, and maybe what you're actually thinking of does in some ways.....but the problem is just like comments about cores and Young/Els, you're using all the wrong terms. Not only that, you're using *damaging* terms that have been measured to be false as it relates to actual practical application. These read like they're out of a Golf Digest backpage instructional section from 1993, just like your comments about ball flight.

These things have been measured; every swing starts from the ground up, so what you're maybe trying to say is "a swing rooted in a correctly sequenced lower body pivot". All swings need to have active arms, so when you say "passive" what you might be trying to say is "avoiding overactivity" or something similar. Likely what you mean is more "passive shoulders", because time and time again the great players have advocated *delaying* shoulder rotation as rotating them too early tends to send the arms out/over the top.

Go read the last 6+ pages of the Swing Video and Comments section, watch the videos, and note how many people have "active hips/passive arms" related problems with arms severely trailing their body. There are literally hundreds and you'll only keep finding more the further you go back. It's easily the most common issue among golfers capable of generating higher speeds, although it still impacts everyone. Getting the hands/arms down *in sequence* with the lower body pivot to achieve the kinds of positions all pros get into is impossible for 99% of golfers via the instruction of "active lower body, passive arms". The 1% that need to hear this are either genetic freaks with tremendous hand/arm speed while simultaneously having sluggish lower bodies or people with injuries they're compensating for. 

Edited Tuesday at 12:22 PM by Valtiel

[SNIPERBBB]

14 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

It's not nonsense.  You have to begin moving pressure to the lead side as soon as the transition starts, that will encourage the hips and shoulders to begin opening up, and eventually square the body and clubface to the ball.  The follow through is important to ensure pressure and weight keep moving forward so that the body rotation does not stall at some point and the arms take over.

think youve confused this forum for baseball/softball hitting instruction. If you dont have your arms do anything, you will never get to the ball.  You have to work the arms down at some point, they wont get there on their own.

[TheDeanAbides]

26 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

It's not nonsense.  You have to begin moving pressure to the lead foot as soon as the transition starts, that will encourage the hips and shoulders to open up, and eventually square the body and clubface to the ball. 

 

The follow through is important to ensure pressure and weight keep moving forward so that rotation does not stall at some point and the arms take over.  I learned that the hard way.

Pressure moves to the lead foot way before transition. 

[Valtiel]

5 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

It's not nonsense.  You have to begin moving pressure to the lead side as soon as the transition starts, that will encourage the hips and shoulders to open up, and eventually square the body and clubface to the ball. 

 

The follow through is important to ensure pressure and weight keep moving forward so that the rotation does not stall at some point and the arms take over.

Re-centering in transition might encourage the shoulders to open, but all pros *resist* this. Re-centering and the beginning of the downswing is done (and felt by the pros that talk about it) as an exercise in keeping the shoulders closed while accelerating the arms. And to single out Ernie, ironically:



Proportionately his hands/arms travel WAY further than his shoulders turn, because he is trying to get his arms back out in front of his body as fast as possible, NOT allowing the arms to be "along for the ride" with the shoulders. Ernie really tried to exaggerate this later in his career as his ability to manage the lag he created + the length of his backswing became harder to manage, especially with the driver which historically he was never particularly accurate with.

[Obee]

I love listening to all you SNs

[TheDeanAbides]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

In my experience, when you're forced to use the arms late like you've described, you often FEEL like it's a much more "armsy" swing or a "handsy" swing at the bottom… because they've been too passive too early.

 

When you first learn to "use your arms" more quickly (immediately) from the top, it feels like you're making an "arms swing" at first, but as you get into it… it begins to feel like you're using your arms less (while your clubhead speed often increases).

 

In other words, the golfers trying to have "passive" arms/hands are forced to use them more late and thus often feel the "armsiest/handsiest" through the ball.

Exactly. Explained much better than I managed, which is no surprise! 

[Golf_Goof]

13 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Yep. The old look at that distraction 

More like: "teach the controversy". 

[Obee]

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

It's not nonsense.  You have to begin moving pressure to the lead foot as soon as the transition starts, that will encourage the hips and shoulders to open up, and eventually square the body and clubface to the ball. 

 

The follow through is important to ensure pressure and weight keep moving forward so that rotation does not stall at some point and the arms take over.  I learned that the hard way.

Who are you, @nikos74? Are you an instructor? Do you compete? Just some guy? (nothing wrong with that, of course).

[nikos74]

51 minutes ago, Obee said:

Who are you, @nikos74? Are you an instructor? Do you compete? Just some guy? (nothing wrong with that, of course).

 Just some guy who played a little tennis, basketball, gplf and soccer from about 15 to 25 years of age.  I gravitated to golf and fell in love with it.  I was hitting driver 320 yards easily at the range.  Initially had problems slicing it 50-80 yards right, but I worked it out eventually.  My instructor said I had a wild john daily swing and that I should clean it up.  Probably played on the course less than 10 times and never broke 100 to be honest.  Just because I had a "good swing" didn't mean 💩 on the course.  Out of bounds, in the trees, in the water, etc.  Couldn't get out of bunkers without 2-3 whacks at it.  I lacked an all around game and discipline.

 

Eventually I moved to the greek islands to start a business and there are no golf courses there.  Recently they have built some on the mainland but I have not been able to play on them yet due to busy work schedule and lack of funds for transportation, lodging, etc.  Hopefully I will become a member at some club in the future and get to play again.  I have learned 2-3 times more than what I knew  in the past.  A big practice mat, some hard foam balls, old fashion blades.

Edited Tuesday at 03:52 PM by nikos74

[Chunkitgood]

I’m a sucker for videos with one easy drill for perfect contact (sort of like looking for the philosopher’s stone), and clicked on this video, which actually deals with the transition.  These guys recommend a stretched out “and” between the backswing and the downswing.  Anathema to some but perhaps helpful to some also.  It is however predicated in the ability of the golfer, according to them, to separate the shoulders from the hips.  Perhaps people who don’t favor the “pause” lack such separation?

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:06 PM by Chunkitgood

[ferrispgm]

5 hours ago, nikos74 said:

 Just some guy who played a little tennis, basketball, gplf and soccer from about 15 to 25 years of age.  I gravitated to golf and fell in love with it.  I was hitting driver 320 yards easily at the range.  Initially had problems slicing it 50-80 yards right, but I worked it out eventually.  My instructor said I had a wild john daily swing and that I should clean it up.  Probably played on the course less than 10 times and never broke 100 to be honest.  Just because I had a "good swing" didn't mean 💩 on the course.  Out of bounds, in the trees, in the water, etc.  Couldn't get out of bunkers without 2-3 whacks at it.  I lacked an all around game and discipline.

 

Eventually I moved to the greek islands to start a business and there are no golf courses there.  Recently they have built some on the mainland but I have not been able to play on them yet due to busy work schedule and lack of funds for transportation, lodging, etc.  Hopefully I will become a member at some club in the future and get to play again.  I have learned 2-3 times more than what I knew  in the past.  A big practice mat, some hard foam balls, old fashion blades.

 

So in summary.....someone who shouldn't be arguing anything about what happens in a golf swing.

 

And yes, even in a "one plane swing" the arms are active regardless of how Hardy describes how they feel. 

[johnrobison]

5 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

I’m a sucker for videos with one easy drill for perfect contact (sort of like looking for the philosopher’s stone), and clicked on this video, which actually deals with the transition.  These guys recommend a stretched out “and” between the backswing and the downswing.  Anathema to some but perhaps helpful to some also.  It is however predicated in the ability of the golfer, according to them, to separate the shoulders from the hips.  Perhaps people who don’t favor the “pause” lack such separation?

 

He wasn’t promoting a pause, or really even demonstrating one. That was just some recentering before the top of the swing.

[Rbsiedsc]

5 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

I’m a sucker for videos with one easy drill for perfect contact (sort of like looking for the philosopher’s stone), and clicked on this video, which actually deals with the transition.  These guys recommend a stretched out “and” between the backswing and the downswing.  Anathema to some but perhaps helpful to some also.  It is however predicated in the ability of the golfer, according to them, to separate the shoulders from the hips.  Perhaps people who don’t favor the “pause” lack such separation?

 

 

this isn't a pause though like Hediki or Young. There is still flow into their front side. The problem us AMs have, and I am guilty of this too, is getting to quick and the tempo is super fast and out of sync. Or, a slower backswing and then rushing the downswing. This drill would work for the people that get too quick, not the folks with the slow backswing

[GoGoErky]

1 minute ago, johnrobison said:

He wasn’t promoting a pause, or really even demonstrating one. That was just some recentering before the top of the swing.

Lots of lack of reading and video watching comprehension with some of the people in here

[MonteScheinblum]

11 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Again showing your lack of knowledge.

 

He teaches a proper golf swing backed by science and measured data of what the best golfers do. It’s the samething that AMG teaches, inline with Eric Cogorno, Jake Hutt and a multitude of other teachers.

 

If you are using his no turn cast series and thread or some of his other videos as your basis, those are drills, very similar to things like drill Dustin rose does, they are exaggerations in most instances to teach a movement. Which if that’s what your basing on shows how little you understand about teaching movements 

Far from unorthodox. I would recommend you get familiar with things before you speak on them and continue to post bad information.

 

In fairness, when objectively what you think is wrong 80-80% of the time, what most good players do would seem very unorthodox.

 

 

 

 

[nikos74]

28 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

 

So in summary.....someone who shouldn't be arguing anything about what happens in a golf swing.

 

And yes, even in a "one plane swing" the arms are active regardless of how Hardy describes how they feel. 

I could post a bunch of links to articles and videos highlighting the importance of passive arms and hands with certain swing styles, but unfortunately it would be in vain because people in this sub-forumn don't want to hear it.

 

Feel free to reinvent the wheel and use my non-handicap to do it.

[Rbsiedsc]

2 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

I could post a bunch of links to articles and videos highlighting the importance of passive arms and hands with certain swing styles, but unfortunately it would be in vain because people in this sub-forumn don't want to hear it.

 

Feel free to reinvent the wheel and use my non-handicap to do it.

please don't as we know what you did to the arm speed thread...

[GoGoErky]

26 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

In fairness, when objectively what you think is wrong 80-80% of the time, what most good players do would seem very unorthodox.

 

 

 

 

Very true.