Just me or are many driver closed at neutral setting?

[JD3]

I remember years ago before adjustability most drivers looked at least 0.5 closed at setup to me. Only TM TP could be counted on to be consistently square or even 0.5 open looking. Now it seems they're all closed to one degree or another. What gives? With adjustability have OEMs thrown in the towel on square face angles in so-called neutral position?

[MiloMalt]

To my eye most drivers look square at neutral settings except Callaway. All of the Paradym and AI Smoke models look super open to me.

[Stuart_G]

Just by eye the majority of the major OEM drivers look open to me.   TM the most open, Callaway the least open.  Sure a few closed models get thrown out as well to help the slicers - but they have been a minority.  Especially for the lower 9* heads.   It might be different for higher lofted versions - I can't say.

 

To my knowledge "square" has never a popular target for the designers in the first place.  

 

Likely more a result of the more complex sole geometry needed to manipulate the c.g. location than a direct attempt to manipulate face angle.  It's kind of hard to have a closed face when the sole slopes up so much from the face toward the rear.  That makes the head want to rock backwards - and that will almost always open the face some.     Add the upright lie angles and it makes it even harder.

 

Edited Thursday at 09:27 AM by Stuart_G

[JD3]

59 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

Just by eye the majority of the major OEM drivers look open to me.   TM the most open, Callaway the least open.  Sure a few closed models get thrown out as well to help the slicers - but they have been a minority.  Especially for the lower 9* heads.   It might be different for higher lofted versions - I can't say.

 

To my knowledge "square" has never a popular target for the designers in the first place.  

 

Likely more a result of the more complex sole geometry needed to manipulate the c.g. location than a direct attempt to manipulate face angle.  It's kind of hard to have a closed face when the sole slopes up so much from the face toward the rear.  That makes the head want to rock backwards - and that will almost always open the face some.     Add the upright lie angles and it makes it even harder.

 

Ugh, so maybe it's that I've been using heads at higher lofts like 10.5 that's the issue. You think maybe they make them a bit closed on purpose? I'm going to check out some 9's. Unfortunately not as simple as adjusting to that loft as that also increases lie angle ...something else I don't want.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 10:18 AM by JD3

[RobS]

31 minutes ago, JD3 said:

Ugh, so maybe it's that I've been using heads at higher lofts like 10.5 that's the issue. You think maybe they make them a bit closed on purpose? I'm going to check out some 9's. Unfortunately not as simple as adjusting to that loft as that also increases lie angle ...something else I don't want.

 

 

Almost all of the mainstream drivers these days are open.  A great follow on instagram is Clay Long who is an OEM industry vet.....TM, Cobra and MacGregor (all the way back to the Jack Nicklaus days).  He provides detailed drawings and measurements of drivers from time to time from the major OEM's and they generally fall between 1* and 4* open depending on the model.  He's measuring just 1 driver of each model and there would be some variation if you measure multiple drivers of the same model but the trend is pretty clear towards open.  Visually, when you look at a driver at address, it will appear closed to many people until it sits around 2* open, especially on drivers that have a straighter top line. Think Titleist TSi2 compared to a TSi3. The transition from the crown to the face on the toe side has a major influence on how the face angle appears.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, JD3 said:

Ugh, so maybe it's that I've been using heads at higher lofts like 10.5 that's the issue. You think maybe they make them a bit closed on purpose?

 

I can say it has been done - but I can't say how common or which OEM's tend to do it more than others.  And usually done based on the different perceived need of the targeted demographic for the particular lofts.  e.g. better players tend to use lower lofts and high cappers tend to use higher lofts.  Obviously it's a gross generalization but what can you do?     And I'd be more likely to expect it in 11*+ lofts.    10.5 is kind of a tweener loft as far as targeted demographic so hard to say what any OEM would do with them.

Edited Thursday at 11:43 AM by Stuart_G

[JD3]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:42 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

I can say it has been done - but I can't say how common or which OEM's tend to do it more than others.  And usually done based on the different perceived need of the targeted demographic for the particular lofts.  e.g. better players tend to use lower lofts and high cappers tend to use higher lofts.  Obviously it's a gross generalization but what can you do?     And I'd be more likely to expect it in 11*+ lofts.    10.5 is kind of a tweener loft as far as targeted demographic so hard to say what any OEM would do with them.

maybe it is most often me reacting to face bulge and roll. But here's something else I really can't get my head around: how is it that TM chart I posted in the OP shows the lie angle increasing for any setting from neutral, whereas other OEMs (for example, Ping below) show lie decreasing when being adjusted for lower loft? I would have thought for sure lie correlates positively with loft changes.

[mogc60]

To my eye manufacturers are way over doing it on the open side not the closed. But I prefer square to slightly open but to my eye, Callaway, Titleist, Mizuno, some Pings just look so far open I’d never be able to get used to it. And I hit it high so lifting up isn’t usually an option 

[Valtiel]

7 hours ago, JD3 said:

maybe it is most often me reacting to face bulge and roll. But here's something else I really can't get my head around: how is it that TM chart I posted in the OP shows the lie angle increasing for any setting from neutral, whereas other OEMs (for example, Ping below) show lie decreasing when being adjusted for lower loft? I would have thought for sure lie correlates positively with loft changes.

Because similar to your initial question it's about understanding where "neutral" is. With regards to face angles, most companies will simply assume that with adjustable hosels you can tweak to get the face angle you want and (ideally) be savvy enough to know which head to picked based on that e.g. if you want 9* and a really open face angle that you buy a 10.5* head and loft it down. Companies are also more and more moving towards the common 3-4 product lineup with the "low spin/fade biased", "mid spin/neutral biased", and "higher spin/draw biased" heads to cover the widest range. Most of the lower spinning options will trend towards more open faces on average, and vice versa for the draw biased heads. 

Regarding lie angle, TM measures their "neutral" line angle at the "lowest/highest" setting and technically anything towards the "STD" side is flatter and anything towards "UPRIGHT" is obviously upright. They don't really market it this way? But that's how it is. 

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, JD3 said:

maybe it is most often me reacting to face bulge and roll. But here's something else I really can't get my head around: how is it that TM chart I posted in the OP shows the lie angle increasing for any setting from neutral, whereas other OEMs (for example, Ping below) show lie decreasing when being adjusted for lower loft? I would have thought for sure lie correlates positively with loft changes.

 

Maybe this will help.

 

Think of what it would be like if TM just started labeling the current standard setting as 'flat' and the 'standard uprt' as standard.   There are two 'standard' loft settings with different lie settings.  Which one of those two is the actual 'standard' setting is completely arbitrary.

 

Then instead of printing the actual lie angle on the TM chart, round it so that if the lie is less than 60* you label it "flat" and if it's 60* or more, you call it 'neutral'.

 

Now you have the Ping chart.