How much does club fitting matter???

[cbrian]

Impact position for a solidly struck shot is a commonality among different swing types.

If one understands and appreciates that fact then the benefit of static fitting is clear.

 

So what you are saying is that because my dad and I are roughly the same height, that we should have similar clubs? If you truly belive that, then you have never seen anyone other than yourself swing a club..

[frozen_rope]

I wrote that a solidly struck golf shot has a common impact position regardless of swing type.

 

 

Frozen Rope, you are making a huge leap of faith. That leap is that any golfer can get to this same impact positon from the "static" measurement. It is absolutely not going to happen. Even professional golfers with the same "static measurements" will not play the same length, lie angle, shaft type or shaft flex. How could you possibly think that any of the rest of us could?

 

There are multitudes of different postures (much less golfers coming out of their posture during the golf swing) and swing styles, that anyone who really believes this is very uninformed. I'm not trying to belittle you at all. You believe what you believe, and you may have reasons behind this. You may have had a bad experience or else you have never been properly fitted. You shouldn't let that get in the way of clouding your thinking.

[fit4golf]

Okay. So what is your point and how does that relate to getting properly fit for clubs?

[cbrian]

Okay. So what is your point and how does that relate to getting properly fit for clubs?

 

I'm pretty confused as well..

[frozen_rope]

On solidly struck shots the relationship between the ground, ball , and club head is the same, regardless of swing type.

 

 

Okay. So what is your point and how does that relate to getting properly fit for clubs?

[cbrian]

On solidly struck shots the relationship between the ground, ball , and club head is the same, regardless of swing type.

 

So, you think that everyone should be using the same clubs, shafts, etc?

[OrangeBlood]

I think what Frozen is saying is that a good swing is a good swing...it doesn't matter what clubs you have. And a bad swing is a bad swing getting fitted won't help if ....let's say your swaying in your backswing.. Getting fitted is a very small part of the equation.

[3step]

Mr. Frozen,

 

The "life" of this thread indicates the many views in this new age of fitting. In 1920- most every club was built individually for the golfer and we lost a lot with the current, dominating off the rack mentality. The resurgence of fitting, primarily due to the factors of- Karsten Solheim promoting his products with the lie color codes, True Temper offering parallel type shaft models, Taylor Made stamping their drivers with loft numbers, the USGA technology limits on the OEMs, and now, definitive vehicles like the TRACKMAN.

These factors and more have pushed both the dialogue of fitting and the fitting programs of the OEMs closer to the center of the stage. However we are not quite there yet like in 1920.

 

While we are moving closer to the core of true performance fitting, "stop gap" fitting measures like static fitting are a weak improvement over off the rack choices, and do more harm to our industry. Here is a realistic view in terms of numbers-

 

Off the rack equipment choice - expectation to achieve optimal performance = 5%

 

use of Static fitting modules - expectation to achieve optimal performance = 5-10%

 

use of skilled fitter, test clubs, quality measurements, live interaction = 90-98%

 

Regards, 3

[phil75070]

I agree with the poster who said if you are within 1-2* for lie, fitting is not that critical. Same goes for up to 1/2" in length. There are few perfect lies on a golf course so we are forced to adjust all the time. A perfectly fitted set of irons might help with "grooving" a swing on the practice range where lies are all perfect, but one still must learn to adjust to varying conditions on the course.

[blkdiamond]

Here is my humble opinion, and only my opinion.

 

By using the opinion that a tour pro could take an OTR set and shoot par or better that is basically stating that it is their ability and skill, not the equipment that is important. So using that logic, wouldn't it be wiser to invest money into lessons instead of into a custom fitting and custom clubs? Now this isn't to say that having custom fitted clubs won't help your game, but I can have clubs, custom built for me to my exact specifications, but if I have a lousy swing those custom clubs aren't going to do anything for me. Just because I can get an extra 10 yards if I have my driver fitted to me doesn't mean that is going to give me a better overall score.

 

In my opinion, first invest in lessons, then talk with your pro about custom fitting.

[MarkinTN1]

Fitting does matter. Having loft and lies checked is not a fitting. If your hitting your irons well, then thats probably not going to impact your game as much as your looking for.

I'll have to speak in generalities since I don't know your game or swing. Where a fitter can really help you is in your bag makeup. Looking at your profile, I'd consider a 12 degree driver at the correct clublength for you, you'll need an actual clubmaker/fitter for that not golfsmith or any of the national chains, they'll try to sell you squareheads and a whole myriad of shafts when what you need is correct length.

Consider dumping the 3 wood and go to a 5 wood around 18 degrees of loft, you'll hit a higher percentage of good shots. Next when I checked ebay (no archives on the manufacturers sites) for the specs on the halo and mid rescue they show the same 19 degrees of loft for both, you'd do better with a 21 and 24 degree hybrids to replace your 3 and 4 irons. This is just the general direction a clubfitter can help you with, he can also help you decide on a type hybrid that will work best for you.

Window shop and kick the tires at the local clubmakers, see what they have to offer and listen to them, decide which one you have the most confidence in and then work with them, use their knowledge, it'll save you money in the long run.

[Laz]

Here is my humble opinion, and only my opinion.

 

By using the opinion that a tour pro could take an OTR set and shoot par or better that is basically stating that it is their ability and skill, not the equipment that is important. So using that logic, wouldn't it be wiser to invest money into lessons instead of into a custom fitting and custom clubs?

The pro will shoot par or better but might hate how the club feels, or the shape of the shot. He is capable of adjusting his swing and game to the clubs and shoot a good score, but thats not what it's about, is it?

 

Now this isn't to say that having custom fitted clubs won't help your game, but I can have clubs, custom built for me to my exact specifications, but if I have a lousy swing those custom clubs aren't going to do anything for me.

You might have a lousy swing but your body is always the same size and your strength is the same every day. For example: If you are a strong guy you might need a high swingweight and high total weight club regardless of the lousyness of your swing because you simply need the weight to feel the club!

Just because I can get an extra 10 yards if I have my driver fitted to me doesn't mean that is going to give me a better overall score.

Right! But you got an extra 10 yards with your driver! Isn't that cool? :clapping:

 

In my opinion, first invest in lessons, then talk with your pro about custom fitting.

Yes, invest in lessons, but talk to your CUSTOM FITTER ABOUT CUSTOM FITTING. I might be wrong with the number but i estimate that 95% of all pros don't have a clue about REAL custom fitting.

[cbrian]

I agree with the above, but would also add that you have to buy clubs either way. Getting fitted for your clubs keeps you from having to go through trial and error and saves you money in the long run (you only pay for the fitting; the clubs cost the same). It also saves you from developing bad habits, that come from using the wrong equipment, that would make it even more difficult to develop your swing.

 

As for Frozen's argument.. it just makes little sense. This isn't 10-15 years ago where lie/length were the only options available for people. In todays market so much customization is available that it makes absolutely no sense to limit yourself to only customizing your lie/length. People have different levels of strength, ability, swing styles, etc etc, and only using static fitting leaves all of that out.. I'm not going to say that its just as bad as buying off the rack, but its not all that much better.

[OrangeBlood]

My only thing for me is the notion that a new player can be fitted w/o a consistent swing is just plain BS IMO. I have heard the arguements against what I said, and still don't buy it. The new golfer needs to have some time w/ his/her swing to provide accurate feedback to the fitter.

 

How much does a true fitting cost(dynamic)?

[blkdiamond]

In my opinion, first invest in lessons, then talk with your pro about custom fitting.

Yes, invest in lessons, but talk to your CUSTOM FITTER ABOUT CUSTOM FITTING. I might be wrong with the number but i estimate that 95% of all pros don't have a clue about REAL custom fitting.

 

 

My point isn't that the pro would do the fitting, but the pro would tell you wether or not a fitting will really help your game.

 

I believe that all the custom fitting and custom clubs in the world are not going to fix any swing flaws or help you become a better golfer without proper lessons. That is why I would recommend spending the money on lessons first, then fitting.

[cbrian]

It is much easier to develop a good swing using the proper equipment than it is to develop a good swing without.

 

I fitted my dad over the summer and built his clubs myself. He now has the ability to make swings that he wasn't able to do before. Almost all of his bad habits were coming from using the wrong equipment. Yea, after this year I might have to go back through the process because he can produce a more consistent golf swing (and more importantly, has a better setup), but he was only able to get there because of getting into equipment that he can play with.

 

The only way that you can argue that poor golfers don't benefit from being properly fitted is to have never seen the results of a poor golfer getting fitted.

 

The only lesson that needs to occur beforehand, in my opinion, is working on getting the player into a good setup (and there are times where this can't be done with the player's own clubs).

[OrangeBlood]

It is much easier to develop a good swing using the proper equipment than it is to develop a good swing without.

 

I fitted my dad over the summer and built his clubs myself. He now has the ability to make swings that he wasn't able to do before. Almost all of his bad habits were coming from using the wrong equipment. Yea, after this year I might have to go back through the process because he can produce a more consistent golf swing (and more importantly, has a better setup), but he was only able to get there because of getting into equipment that he can play with.

 

The only way that you can argue that poor golfers don't benefit from being properly fitted is to have never seen the results of a poor golfer getting fitted.

 

 

How do you explain the fact that I learned w/ Walmart clubs? I dropped my HC 10 points in a year, using Knight clubs. Learning to swing on plane, proper shoulder turn, follow thru, etc.

 

I have to disagree w/ you... the clubs have nothing to do w/ developing a good swing. That statement is simply wrong, I challenge you to provide some facts to back that up.

[frozen_rope]

There are many different swing paths, swing types etc... However, one commonality is impact position on a solidly struck shot.

 

I think what Frozen is saying is that a good swing is a good swing...it doesn't matter what clubs you have. And a bad swing is a bad swing getting fitted won't help if ....let's say your swaying in your backswing.. Getting fitted is a very small part of the equation.

[frozen_rope]

You are quoting the jargon of the PCS, which is a marketing organization designed to promote the business of club makers.

 

In fact the subjective nature of dynamic club fitting makes it counter productive to helping a player get a good fit.

 

Mr. Frozen,

 

The "life" of this thread indicates the many views in this new age of fitting. In 1920- most every club was built individually for the golfer and we lost a lot with the current, dominating off the rack mentality. The resurgence of fitting, primarily due to the factors of- Karsten Solheim promoting his products with the lie color codes, True Temper offering parallel type shaft models, Taylor Made stamping their drivers with loft numbers, the USGA technology limits on the OEMs, and now, definitive vehicles like the TRACKMAN.

These factors and more have pushed both the dialogue of fitting and the fitting programs of the OEMs closer to the center of the stage. However we are not quite there yet like in 1920.

 

While we are moving closer to the core of true performance fitting, "stop gap" fitting measures like static fitting are a weak improvement over off the rack choices, and do more harm to our industry. Here is a realistic view in terms of numbers-

 

Off the rack equipment choice - expectation to achieve optimal performance = 5%

 

use of Static fitting modules - expectation to achieve optimal performance = 5-10%

 

use of skilled fitter, test clubs, quality measurements, live interaction = 90-98%

 

Regards, 3

[OrangeBlood]

There are many different swing paths, swing types etc... However, one commonality is impact position on a solidly struck shot.

 

I think what Frozen is saying is that a good swing is a good swing...it doesn't matter what clubs you have. And a bad swing is a bad swing getting fitted won't help if ....let's say your swaying in your backswing.. Getting fitted is a very small part of the equation.

 

 

 

Is that not what you were trying to say? ..................LOL.. I re-read it and what I said makes no sense at all....forgive me

[cbrian]

How do you explain the fact that I learned w/ Walmart clubs? I dropped my HC 10 points in a year, using Knight clubs. Learning to swing on plane, proper shoulder turn, follow thru, etc.

 

I have to disagree w/ you... the clubs have nothing to do w/ developing a good swing. That statement is simply wrong, I challenge you to provide some facts to back that up.

 

Well, first off, there is a slight chance that those clubs weren't that bad of a fit for you, but thats not the point. I never said it was impossible to learn the game with unfitted equipment. I just said that it is going to make it harder to learn a good swing.

 

As for proof.. I've already listed my proof. I've seen firsthand what fitted equipment can do for the average to poor golfer... and I can promise you that I'm not the only person on here that seen dramatic improvements in people's swings once they got into equipment that they can play. Its just common sense that when someone gets into equipment that doesn't have to be compensated for, their swing can become more consistent and more efficient.

 

EDIT* As for FrozenRope, what you are saying is that a 90 year old man and a 20 year old man should be hitting the same clubs if their static measurements are the same. That makes no sense..

[OrangeBlood]

....please explain what sort of compensations a person would have to make using OTS clubs in order to learn the golf swing.

 

Learning the swing has nothing to do with the clubs...period

Hell you could have noticed improvemnet solely based on the new found confidence of the players, since they knew they had so-called "custom" fitted clubs.

[cbrian]

Ok, Ill take it to an extreme for you. Imagine a 6'6" guy playing with standard length clubs and then tell me that you can't see how playing clubs OTR would hinder his ability to make a consistent and efficient swing.

[frozen_rope]

I'll jump in to this area of the discussion.

 

First of all, there is no question a skilled player can strike great shots all day long using off the rack standrad clubs, a womens set, whatever. A highly skilled player is capable of making all sorts of swing adjustments and compensations to get the job done no matter what type of club is in his hands.

 

That said, the benefit to a static fit iron set is that the clubs shaft length and club head lie angle will match the players physical dimensions. The value of this match is that it promotes the player making solid ball contact with his most relaxed swing rhythm .

 

 

Dynamic fitting is a completely different story. In dynamic fitting the value of the science of static fitting is lost because the fitter interjects his personal preferences and bias.

 

 

 

....please explain what sort of compensations a person would have to make using OTS clubs in order to learn the golf swing.

 

Learning the swing has nothing to do with the clubs...period

Hell you could have noticed improvemnet solely based on the new found confidence of the players, since they knew they had so-called "custom" fitted clubs.

[OrangeBlood]

Ok, Ill take it to an extreme for you. Imagine a 6'6" guy playing with standard length clubs and then tell me that you can't see how playing clubs OTR would hinder his ability to make a consistent and efficient swing.

 

OK... A person's height has no bearing, it's the wrist to floor measurement that counts. I happen to know a 6'5" guy that plays reg. length clubs.

 

Try again....

[cbrian]

Static fitting is not a science.. and even then, you keep ignoring the fact that you are saying that an old man should be playing the same clubs as a guy in his 20s if the static measurements are the same.

 

I understand that there are fitters out there that don't know what they are doing, but that doesn't mean that all dynamic fitting creates a less efficient swing.

[OrangeBlood]

I'll jump in to this area of the discussion.

 

First of all, there is no question a skilled player can strike great shots all day long using off the rack standrad clubs, a womens set, whatever. A highly skilled player is capable of making all sorts of swing adjustments and compensations to get the job done no matter what type of club is in his hands.

 

That said, the benefit to a static fit iron set is that the clubs shaft length and club head lie angle will match the players physical dimensions. The value of this match is that it promotes the player making solid ball contact with his most relaxed swing rhythm .

 

 

Dynamic fitting is a completely different story. In dynamic fitting the value of the science of static fitting is lost because the fitter interjects his personal preferences and bias.

 

 

 

....please explain what sort of compensations a person would have to make using OTS clubs in order to learn the golf swing.

 

Learning the swing has nothing to do with the clubs...period

Hell you could have noticed improvemnet solely based on the new found confidence of the players, since they knew they had so-called "custom" fitted clubs.

 

 

key word is "promotes" not solves....

[cbrian]

OK... A person's height has no bearing, it's the wrist to floor measurement that counts. I happen to know a 6'5" guy that plays reg. length clubs.

 

Try again....

 

Actually I do, I just thought you would get my point.. Obviously you want to do everything except to try and understand, so I'll just leave it alone. It's pretty apparent that you don't want to understand that properly fitted clubs make it easier on a person to make a more efficient swing, so there isn't much point in me trying.

 

 

Oh and OTR would be standard lie as well.. just fyi.

[OrangeBlood]

Understand what? you haven't given any facts...just an opinion

 

We will just have to agree to disagree...........

[fit4golf]

There is an element of common sense and clubfitting understanding missing from some of the responders to this post. Static club fitting is barely better than no fitting at all. For length it is certainly better than nothing.

 

I know that a lie angle can not be measured correctly statically. Back to CBrian's point you have a 90 year old and a 20 year old. Even if they had the same swing plane (which would be highly unlikely) the droop effect from centrifucal force during the downswing would not be the same for each of them. The club head does not remain in a "static" position relative to address. The toe of the club droops during the downswing. Anyone who understands this would know that a static lie measurement is not accurate.

 

How about the other elements of clubfitting? You mean to tell me that shaft weight, shaft flex, club head design, grip size, flex point have no bearing? If you believe a "static fitting" is better than dynamic then in my opinion you believe that none of these elements have any importance at all.

 

Yes, there is a subjective element to clubfitting. It is absolutely necessary, but science is used by the best clubfitters to determine most of what is needed in the fitting.