Does rust on your wedge really increase spin?

[astamm8]

I feel like I just watched one of those enemies-turned-buddies movies starring "eagle-cub-scout" and the "grease-man". Sheesh.

 

So back on topic, if grooves help clean out debris would it make more sense to have them vertical and have them run off the face (not stop)? Like the car tire analogy (he he he...)

 

 

now this man's thinking. i like this question, although i haven't any idea as far as an answer. but, i'd say maybe it'd be pretty much the same?

[jonesy369]

I don't understand the conclusion that seems to be reached here. The cited USGA study doesn't even mention the word "rust". While they may have a very good idea about what the determinants of spin were in their test conditions, I don't really see how they (or anyone) can say with much confidence that factors they didn't test wouldn't have an impact.

 

For that matter, Frank Thomas's comment talks about maximum spin associated with a high coefficient of friction on first contact. Why wouldn't rust be a potentially significant factor here? Isn't rust associated with a lot of friction? More friction overall might reduce spin, but at this point people seem to just be guessing, since now they have to assess the impact of maximum friction on first contact versus friction overall.

 

If the consensus here seems to be that no, rust isn't much of a factor, I'm not really seeing why anyone would say that. I agree that the default experimental assumption should be that rust wouldn't matter, but these tests aren't disconfirming anything, and there seems to be plenty of ad hoc experience that rust does in fact matter. Bobby Jones apparently took care to rust his wedges, and he was famously persnickety about his equipment. I wouldn't just disregard that.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

I bet a lot depends on what is rusting, and how. Some rusts are light, sandy little things that I'd agree probably wouldn't help. But others are heavy and coarse, and I bet those would. The materials that wedges are made from today are pretty different I suppose than what people who grew up rusting their wedges in the 1940s or whatever were using.

[NYGOLF]

I feel like I just watched one of those enemies-turned-buddies movies starring "eagle-cub-scout" and the "grease-man". Sheesh.

 

So back on topic, if grooves help clean out debris would it make more sense to have them vertical and have them run off the face (not stop)? Like the car tire analogy (he he he...)

 

 

If you had the grooves going up and down or vertical vs horizontal, it would make your shot making MUCH more difficult, or make it difficult to be consistant. Imagine the face being open at impact with vertical gooves, talk about side spin!!!

[Falang_Golfer]

I would imagine it would create side spin but part of the premise here was that grooves were only to remove debris, not impart spin. So vertical would seem to be the best debris removal position.

 

As for rust, I just don't get it. Even if it gave you more spin, I would be more worried about the unevenness of it. It is basically random, both in height and placement so seems like it would cause unwanted side deflection as well if it did cause anything. Why would you spin mill a face and then let a bunch of bumps form on it?

[dlygrisse]

I would imagine it would create side spin but part of the premise here was that grooves were only to remove debris, not impart spin. So vertical would seem to be the best debris removal position.

 

As for rust, I just don't get it. Even if it gave you more spin, I would be more worried about the unevenness of it. It is basically random, both in height and placement so seems like it would cause unwanted side deflection as well if it did cause anything. Why would you spin mill a face and then let a bunch of bumps form on it?

 

I think the conclusion is that if rust as any impact on producing spin it is negligble. As a couple of pple already stated after hitting a few shots the rust would wear off anyway. Most of the rust on a wedge is located on the back of the club and high on the club face. Also what I gathered from Frank Thomas's statements is that having friction on the face, if rust really even causes it, can actually slow down the spin since it would grab onto the ball and slow the ball leaving the face. So while no one has been able to find any clear data or test results I think I can go to bed tonight knowing that rust does not produce more spin on wedge shots, it is a (sub)urban myth.

[dlygrisse]

Back when this thread first started I emailed Vokey.com to see what they would say, I finally got a response back from them. Here is a copy of my email and the response from them.

 

Apologies for not responding sooner...hopefully this answer will still be applicable to your debate. Titleist research has shown that the impact of the golf ball on the club face of a shot struck with a wedge tends to be so oblique that groove geometry and height of impact location tend to be the most significant parameters affecting spin, rather than the finish (or lack thereof) of the club head. To put it another way, if a person is noticing a spin difference between two new wedges of the same loft, bounce, and groove configuration (but different finishes), it's more than likely to be caused by random error and/or by manufacturing tolerances in the grooves than by the different finishes.

 

Vokey Spin Milled wedges feature a CNC machine cut face and grooves, and have 30% more groove volume than a conventional wedge. A special circular saw style cutting tool is used to create precise grooves with a steeper draft angle and a tighter edge radius for increased friction. The precisely machined face and grooves in conjunction with the greater groove volume provides more consistent and higher spin, particularly from grassy lies and wet conditions.

 

We hope that your interest in Vokey Design wedges and Vokey.com continues as the product line and site continue to evolve.

 

Best regards,

 

Brice Waddell

Titleist Golf Clubs Interactive Marketing

 

 

 

 

To: <[email protected]>

cc:

Subject: Rust and milling

 

 

 

I am having a debate with some people about wedges that rust. Does rust on a wedge increase spin? If so how much and under what conditions, I say no, especially since the rust doesn’t stay on the sweet spot very long.

Does the milling on you spin milled wedges increase spin? And if it does is it because of the grooves or because the face is flatter? And under what conditions?

 

BTW I own a SM 58.08 and love it, great clubs keep up the great work.

 

 

Thanks,

[thewitt]

So you received the Vokey marketing response, "Our stuff is better than their stuff."

 

Is that a surprise?

 

-t

[jonesy369]

Vokey wedges make the rust case, don't they? -- they explicitly roughen the surface:

 

Classic teardrop shaped wedge with a CNC machined face creates a rougher surface for better spin retention on partial shots.

 

http://www.titleist.com/golfclubs/wedges/vokeyspinmilled.asp

 

I can believe surface rust isn't that significant a factor, but I don't see any argument made yet as to why it's not relevant.

 

And I still think the materials and conditions of rust are likely to be an issue. Some rusts are more coarse.