Does rust on your wedge really increase spin?

[Hathstauwk]

"feel better"????

truth is always a good thing.....so is a little common sense.

[8602081]

Too many users on this forum thinks that they are experts.

[thewitt]

The problem is "experts" get published every month in the golf magazines, and so the pseudo-experts read these rags and become experts themselves.

 

Having designed wedges, irons, woods, shafts and even putters - I speak from my own experience in this industry, where I've been doing this for decades.

 

The data is out there. It's not in the monthly golf magazines...

 

-t

 

PS You can find these two reports in one of the mainstream golf magazines published only 3 months apart:

 

1) Adding lead tape to the toe of your driver will help you hit a draw.

 

2) Adding lead tape to the heel of your driver will help you hit a draw.

 

Yup. The experts have spoken...

[NYGOLF]

I guess this explains why pros carry so many grooveless clubs. :russian_roulette: :russian_roulette: :russian_roulette:

 

friction=grip=more surface area in contact with ball surface=more spin

 

grooves+soft covers on balls=cover getting into grooves=more surface area in contact with ball=more grip=more spin.

 

WHy these people spout garbage above is beyond me. This is a physics lesson. If not, there would be at elast one club in the bag of pros with no grooves, so when they have clean lies and perfctly clean ball with no water and no grass and no external force affecting the contact (since after all, in nature, there are NO outside forces so the groovelss argument REALLY applies), they can get the best performance. This is why we use soft ocver balls for better spin around the greens and people use clubs with spin milled (which is like a whole bunch of mini-grooves, if you have ever seen a close of of the vokey wedges, for example)

 

Very simple, actually. And I do not even have an 'old wife' to tell tales from.

 

Finally a reasonable answer to this nonsense...

[dlygrisse]

Fact: a smooth flat face provides for spin off a perfectly clean lie

Fact: grooves provide more spin out of the rough

Fact: Modern square grooves provide even more spin out of the rough

Fact: a rusty wedge does not provide more spin than a wedge with out rust.

 

Any other arguement without data to back it up is nothing more than opinion.

[Hathstauwk]

Fact: a smooth flat face provides for spin off a perfectly clean lie

Fact: grooves provide more spin out of the rough

Fact: Modern square grooves provide even more spin out of the rough

Fact: a rusty wedge does not provide more spin than a wedge with out rust.

 

Any other arguement without data to back it up is nothing more than opinion.

 

 

the funniest part of this post is that he says that without data, it is nothing more than opinion.....

 

since there is no data above, I guess this is just his opinion, too. Which of course, it is.

[dlygrisse]

Fact: a smooth flat face provides for spin off a perfectly clean lie

Fact: grooves provide more spin out of the rough

Fact: Modern square grooves provide even more spin out of the rough

Fact: a rusty wedge does not provide more spin than a wedge with out rust.

 

Any other arguement without data to back it up is nothing more than opinion.

 

 

the funniest part of this post is that he says that without data, it is nothing more than opinion.....

 

since there is no data above, I guess this is just his opinion, too. Which of course, it is.

Read the Search for the Perfect Swing, as a previous poster stated, read the USGA's recent findings on square grooves that have been discussed on this forum extensivley in other threads and that are posted on the USGA's website, it is all backed up with scientific data, if you read this entire thread you would know that. So the funniest part of this thread is that you are ignorant, or not paying attention, and my opinion is that you are wrong.

[dlygrisse]

I guess this explains why pros carry so many grooveless clubs. :russian_roulette: :russian_roulette: :russian_roulette:

 

friction=grip=more surface area in contact with ball surface=more spin

 

grooves+soft covers on balls=cover getting into grooves=more surface area in contact with ball=more grip=more spin.

 

WHy these people spout garbage above is beyond me. This is a physics lesson. If not, there would be at elast one club in the bag of pros with no grooves, so when they have clean lies and perfctly clean ball with no water and no grass and no external force affecting the contact (since after all, in nature, there are NO outside forces so the groovelss argument REALLY applies), they can get the best performance. This is why we use soft ocver balls for better spin around the greens and people use clubs with spin milled (which is like a whole bunch of mini-grooves, if you have ever seen a close of of the vokey wedges, for example)

 

Very simple, actually. And I do not even have an 'old wife' to tell tales from.

 

the reason that pros dont carry grooveless clubs is obvious, they don't need more spin from the fairway! they just need more spin from the rough, in fact the pros are constantly trying to take spin off the shot from the fairway so they don't spin it off the green. Also a groovless wedge would not be very versitile, and would be pretty worthless out of anything but a very tight lie. A spin milled wedge is not like a bunch of mini grooves, it insures flatness and grip off of a fairway lie only, the grooves increase spin from the rough only.

[xan_user]

No, it does not add spin.

 

What causes a face to spin the ball is it's flatness. That promotes the most contact with the ball.

 

Faces that are milled flat are "Spin-milled" and that indeed causes the most spin.

 

Rust is simply rust - and yes, we've tested this in a hitting robot.

 

-t

 

where was the test done? where was the rust on the clubs that was used?

 

The flatness of the face seems to me is important, but the grooves style and the sharpness thereof seems to me to be the most important factor in spin. I would guess that if you had rust on the face of the club, it would increase the friction which would cause more spin. Though, I do have to wonder that intentionally allowing the club to rust is intentionally allowing the addition of a substance to the face of the club (the oxidization) to affect the ball, thus making it illegal. So, why are rusty wedges not considered illegal? If I intentionally put vaseline on a driver to decrease spin, how is that different than me intentionally rusting a wedge or failing to prevent the rusting of a wedge? Anyone?

 

OK. Intentionally appling something to the face of a golf to affect the performance of the ball is against the rules of golf (see rule 4-3). Rusty wedges get around this because they generally rust "through normal use" and therefore comply (see rule 4-1 f) .

Whether or not they impart more spin than others is subjective. Can anyone remember a grooveless wedge made by Pal Joey? It used the principle that more contact = more spin. If you imagine a slick tyre (tire) on a racing car it uses the same principle, i.e the more surface area in contact with the ground ( or in this case ball) provides the most grip. After all, it's the rubber on a tyre that grips the road, not the grooves. Hope this may be of some enlightenment.

 

You are comparing slicks on a car vs grooves on a club? Last time I went out and hit my wedge, I didn't have to heat it up to get it to "stick" more like you do with slicks... Have you ever driven a car with slicks, cold slicks? Slippery... They're only good when they get hot, so you're totally changing the dynamic here... bad comparison.

 

So if gooves don't mean much, why all the big fuss about U groves, V grooves, and why the rule changes?

 

Obviously grooves have an affect on the golf ball.

 

I don't think the analogy is that far off IF you change it from car tires to bicycle tires . No warming up needed.

 

Road racing slicks on a wet turn equals a crash where a grooved tire holds.

 

Road racing slicks on the same corner when dry will turn better than grooved tires due to more contact with the road.

 

The grooves provide a place for the grass juice/dew/rain to get out from between the ball and club face, so the face can impart the spin.

 

It would be interesting if someone wanted to fill their grooves with epoxy, they could have a head to head test with the same wedge groove vs. no groove from both a dry and wet lie.

[Hathstauwk]

this dlygrisse guy does not know what he is talking about. If you ever look at a close up of teh face of a spin milled wedge, you DO see mini grooves!!! Believe it or not, I have actually seenone or two of these in person! I know it to be true. Since these seem to be the "holy grail" of wedges for many, and they cite being eble to get soooo much spin from them, it therefore stands to reason!

 

the explanation I already provided about extra surface are in contact with the ball via grooves or additional items on the face (hmmmm...eg, RUST) DO provide additional fristion and hence SPIN! Ever seen those infomercials for the wedges with teh diamond coatings where tey claim you can spin it on pavement? I never said those are great clubs nor hav I tested it but the fact remains that they get more spin due to the extra frictino created by the coatings.

 

How this greasy guy (or...dlygrisse.....whatever) thinks he is right is amazingly laughable. The best part is that he actually believes he is right! Ignorance is bliss and in his case, it seems to provide him means to move forward. I sure hope he never gets into designing clubs or Lord help the sorry souls who believe his drivel and purchase anything made with false information and flawed science (or so he woudl claim it to be based upon)

[Raven Logics]

You mean you don't warm up your wedges first? OK. bad example. It's what we call in england an ANALOGY. I forgot to allow for the dumbness of most americans. But this opinion is, of course, subjective.

In the part of England I was born in an ANALOGY had to relate to the comparison, whereas yours supports the opposite :russian_roulette:. The frictional properties of rubber cause it to grip to the road surface pretty well. However, metal does not have the same frictional properties against a golf ball. In the same way that tires have grooves to help on surfaces where there is less friction, golf clubs have grooves to help grip the ball and thus increase spin. Now does rust help increase friction? It probably does compared with a smooth club, but I'll let the experts decide if it adds to or takes away from the effect of the grooves.

[wildwilly911]

http://www.usga.org/equipment/notices/Inte...0Generation.pdf

[xan_user]

http://www.usga.org/equipment/notices/Inte...0Generation.pdf

 

Thanks, sheds some light on grooves vs no grooves.

 

But wet newspaper and cloth ?

 

Would be nice if the test had been done under "light rain" conditions, without a grass substitute as well.

 

And still not a test of rust, that I could see.

 

 

> If you soak you wedge in coke isn't that a foreign substance, like a lube but the opposite?

[dlygrisse]

this dlygrisse guy does not know what he is talking about. If you ever look at a close up of teh face of a spin milled wedge, you DO see mini grooves!!! Believe it or not, I have actually seenone or two of these in person! I know it to be true. Since these seem to be the "holy grail" of wedges for many, and they cite being eble to get soooo much spin from them, it therefore stands to reason!

 

OMG you have actually seen one or two in person! unbelievable! Guess what? I actually own two, and have been using them for years, and yes I can see the grooves, and guess what the micro grooves wear off after using them for several months, at least on the sweet spot, and guess what the performance of the wedge does not change that much, if at all. Who is "they" "that cites being eble to get sooo much spin from them"? Is this something the 18 year old dude at the local Golfsmith told you, or do you have data to back it up?

 

the explanation I already provided about extra surface are in contact with the ball via grooves or additional items on the face (hmmmm...eg, RUST) DO provide additional fristion and hence SPIN! Ever seen those infomercials for the wedges with teh diamond coatings where tey claim you can spin it on pavement? I never said those are great clubs nor hav I tested it but the fact remains that they get more spin due to the extra frictino created by the coatings.

 

OMG, if it says so on an infomercial then it must be true, how many pros are still carrying a Pure Spin wedge? Do they work out of rough or just the fairway? Are you comparing diamonds to rust, I am pretty sure they have different molecular structures. BTW what is frictino? there is a spell check funtion on this sight you might try using it once.

 

 

How this greasy guy (or...dlygrisse.....whatever) thinks he is right is amazingly laughable. The best part is that he actually believes he is right! Ignorance is bliss and in his case, it seems to provide him means to move forward. I sure hope he never gets into designing clubs or Lord help the sorry souls who believe his drivel and purchase anything made with false information and flawed science (or so he woudl claim it to be based upon)

 

Thanks for being so mature that name calling has become part of the conversation, I forgot for a second what JR high was like, and I don't design clubs, so you don't need to worry, but if I did I would sell them through an infomercial so you would buy one :russian_roulette:

I have also provided you with two sources so you can do some research but obviously you have failed to do so, you would just rather resort to name calling, so until you come with scentific data instead of just using phrases like "holy grail" and making some of the most hypocritical statements in the history of the WWW, such as "ignorance is bliss" "drivel" "flawed science" you might also want to read the link in the post above, very informative. I am going to not lower myself to your level by making any more comments in this thread, So as George Bernard Shaw once said: I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

[Hathstauwk]

Grease-man continues his flawed rants so further discussion is not worth anything. He resorts to things like critcizing spell check since he has nothing better to offer. Talk about Jr. High!!

 

Carry on Grease-man. Use your flawed logic because is seems to make you feel better. Your entire response was both childish and ridiculous. It si a good thing you do not design clubs. Now I just hope you never give out "advice" on this site to anyone as they will go away thinking they learned something whereas they will only learn wrong information and if they repeat it, they will look like a moron.

[dlygrisse]

Couple of things I found interesting in the USGA study

1. The maximum spin rate and the angle at which that occurs depends heavily on

the coefficient of friction

• Often, reducing the friction can actually lead to greater spin It seems the angle of attack is more important.

 

• Spin does not uniquely specify the coefficient of friction

• In order to make meaningful observations of the effect of friction on spin, a

range of impact angles must be tested

 

2. V grooves seem to actually create more spin from dry conditions than U grooves. So U grooves only give an advantage out of rough, in terms of more spin. This would stand to reason why the pros like U grooves, less spin from the fairway and more spin from the rough. The best of both worlds for a good player since they are always worried about spining it off the green from the fairway.

 

Interesting thread at this link:

 

http://thesandtrap.com/bag_drop/is_rust_a_must

[MBA-J]

Tim Hewitt and dlygrisse are actually correct.

 

I posted this over at Todd's kingdom after a conversation with some engineers at Titleist:

 

The Spin Milled 56 and the normal 56 degree wedges spin the EXACT SAME AMOUNT from the fairway. I don't have test results in front of me, but from a clean lie in the fairway, the spin is +/- 50rpm. From the ROUGH is where the Spin Milled wedges shine, as they provide up to 300rpm more spin than the less aggressive groove. Why is this so? Multiple reasons:

 

1. Groove design - Spin Milled wedges have wider, deeper grooves than non-milled wedges. Reason? To channel more debris away to produce clean contact

 

2. Face milling - The mill marks are a byproduct of the MILLING that ensures a consistently flat clubface. After a club is die cast, the milling ensures that the surface is completely flat. This eliminates the "hot spots" commonly found on non-milled faced clubs that can alter launch angle, spin, and overall consistency

 

3. Groove leading edge - As the grooves are milled as well, they produce a sharper leading edge than non-milled grooves. These milled grooves, combined with a descending angle of attack, causes the clubhead to come into contact with the ball with the leading edge of the grooves, thus "shearing" high-end golf balls. Also, the ball compresses into the face of the wedge during impact. As a result, parts of the cover of the ball spread into the grooves, and the grooves WORK, as the grooves believe that due to the soft cover of the ball, the cover is "debris" that should be channeled. That is why you can wipe away parts of the ball cover from the wedge

 

And then I posted this:

 

Spin is generated by loft as the primary variable, not grooves. Grooves help by channeling more dirt/debris away from the face; therefore, the deeper/wider the groove, the more grass/dirt can be channeled leading to a debris-free clubface to negate the losses associated with debris on the face.

 

Take a driver with no grooves on the face at 10 degrees and another with grooves at 8.5. Each and every time, the 10 degree driver WILL spin more.

 

 

While I partially agree that mill marks add little to the spin of wedges, surface tension INDEED adds to the spin. Remember the "PureSpin Diamond Face Scoring Wedges?" Those things spun off the charts because of the SURFACE TENSION, not the groove design, as loft was consistent with other clubs.

 

And then,

 

This:

 

The way that my friends at Titleist explained it to me is that the Spin Milled wedges were not designed to excel in the fairway. The wedges were the result of the new "bomb and gouge" strategies employed by tour players. As the tour players began to hit their drivers longer and less accurately, the result was typically a wedge shot from the rough to the green.

 

The engineers at Titleist argue that in order for the groove to channel more dirt/sand/debris/grass from the clubface, the grooves must be wider, sharper, and deeper - characteristics enabled by the milling of the grooves. The negative aspect of this characteristic is rendered on clean shots from the fairway, as the only dirt/sand/debris/grass that is channeled is unfortunately the cover of the golf ball.

 

In addition, new, sharp grooves coupled with a freshly sandblasted face ensured maximum spin. The surface tension of the wedge has a marginally more important impact on spin from a clean lie, as the surface tension allows the club to "grab" the ball, compress, and transfer energy efficiently at a given, predictable launch angle. The combination of all these factors enter into the spin equation. However, once surface tension is removed (weathering of sandblasted face, weathering of mill marks, weathering of groove edges) the "synthetic" spin agents are removed, thus compromising the initial spin ability of the wedge. That's why a 10 year old wedge will never outperform a brand new wedge. However, if both clubs were grooveless and lacked surface tension, performance would be nearly identical, given similar CG locations.

 

Wedges are a lot more complex than we all thought. Mind you, the majority of this information is second hand info from Titleist, coupled with my own conclusions.

 

 

I think the answer is, NO, unless the rust provides adequate surface tension.

[dlygrisse]

Here is a Q and A from Frank Thomas's website, the former technical director for the USGA and the inventor of the graphite shaft.

I am curious to the research and testing done while you were working with the USGA regarding spin rates created by a wedge with grooves, and a wedge with no grooves. Many people are quoting you to have said that research has proven that a wedge with no grooves will impart as much spin as a wedge with grooves in perfect contact, dry conditions. What test was performed? While I agree that a wedge that has grooves will generate more spin out of the rough by channeling moisture and debris away, I find it hard to believe that a wedge with grooves does not affect the spin rate of a wedge shot in dry contact conditions. Surely the bite marks in my golf ball indicate that they have some effect. If square or U-grooves can help to generate more spin in light rough that V-grooves (20% according to your response in Golf Digest) because of more volume... why would it not help in dry conditions? Would more volume allow the soft cover to be "grabbed" more efficiently as well in dry conditions? I found information from research on the matter a little contradictory. When a reader asked if rusting his wedge would help bring back spin on his old wedge, your answer was no, and that he should re-groove his wedge to bring back the spin he had lost. I'm confused. I guess the ultimate question I have for you would be, was there a test done by the USGA that has shown that a grooveless wedge will impart 100% as much spin as a grooved wedge beyond a shadow of a doubt. Are these test results accessible to the general public? Thank you very much for your time and reading my email. I look forward to your response.

 

The maximum spin you can get from a wedge is to have a high coefficient of friction on first contact and minimum friction when the ball is releasing from the face. Experimenting with saw-tooth grooves proved this phenomenon.

 

The reason is that the ball is wound up by the oblique impact and then the backspin is created by it wanting to unwind and thus the maximum spin on the ball is just before it leaves the face. The fact that it is stuck to the face during the latter part of the time the ball and club are in contact actually restricts it and slows the spin rate down - as would deep grooves.

 

This is the main reason why balls spin less off drivers with a spring like effect, which holds the ball on the face fractionally longer than a face with no spring like effect. A smooth wedge face will not spin a ball as fast as a sandblasted face as the initial slippage at first contact is too much.

 

So, sandblasting helps increase the coefficient of friction on contact but is not as bad as deep grooves in holding the spin rate back on release.

 

This is certainly not the case when grass juice interferes when it comes to wedges. What was interesting also was that the 5-iron spun more with a small quantity of grass between the face of the ball than when it was a dry impact showing the same phenomenon at this angle of obliqueness. Hope this helps.

 

 

So from what I am gathering extra friction on the face from a clean lie can actually reduce spin by holding onto the ball and stoping it from spinning as it leaves the face, the friction will actually slow it down!

[Hathstauwk]

All interesting comments above on surface tension and performance of spin milled from fairway vs rough and coefficient of friction.

 

So the discussion about rust is supported by what the last poster said. This is because, of course, you cannot be talking about effect of rust if you have been hitting so many shots that the rust is no longer a 'rough' surface. Mine wears down and I know if only has effect on likely the first couple shots. If you have an extreme amout of rust on your club, it WILL spin more for exactly the reasons "Classic" and the folks at Titleist said. Since it is unlikely that anyone has an extreme amount of rust, and if they do, chances are they do not play very much (hence the buildup of actual meaningful amount of rust) and I would hazard to 'generalize' that if they do not play much they 'MAY' not be a high level player (since it usually takes regular practice to be really good except for those fortunate enough to be blessed with great natural ability - which I am not one counted in that group). If they are not a high level player, they likely also do not get the maximum advantage of the extra spin benefits these are meant to provide.

 

For me, I like the looks of it not being a shiny new looking club (prefer to let the shots do the talking - and at an 8.7 index, they do not really say much) as there are many people who love the materialistic element of "look what I got" that I really hate. So I like being a little more 'under the radar' in that regard, and my index already does an adequate job of keeping me under any radar...lol. Also, and more importantly, I like the anti-glare effect of it. I know many of the spin milled also come in reduced glare but I avoid the spin milled mainly because I lose enough balls at my level of play that I do not need to shred balls when I am fortunate enough to be hitting from the fairway. Balls are very expensive, especially with MY play!

[dlygrisse]

Does anyone know of a study that shows spin on partial wedge shots vs. full shots. Personally I don't like a lot of spin on full wedge shots, I just want the ball to sit down and stop, but like a lot of spin 40 yards in so I can hit the low burner and make it kinda skid, spin and check

[Hathstauwk]

Does anyone know of a study that shows spin on partial wedge shots vs. full shots. Personally I don't like a lot of spin on full wedge shots, I just want the ball to sit down and stop, but like a lot of spin 40 yards in so I can hit the low burner and make it kinda skid, spin and check

 

 

This is a shot I actually want to learn. I have been playing teh pitch style or bump and run in actual play. Unfortunately, I cannot find a decent place to practice the skid and stop shot that has greens of a practice area that are mown close to "real" greens so never really get to practice on the public places I play.

 

Curious though........what is the generally accepted proper technique to hit this shot? I would guess something like back in stance, low finish (to avoid popping it up) almost like a punch shot but I suppose to generate that much spin, you need to realyl come down on the club. Is that generally right or have I missed some elements here? Like I said, never tried it.

[dlygrisse]

Does anyone know of a study that shows spin on partial wedge shots vs. full shots. Personally I don't like a lot of spin on full wedge shots, I just want the ball to sit down and stop, but like a lot of spin 40 yards in so I can hit the low burner and make it kinda skid, spin and check

 

 

This is a shot I actually want to learn. I have been playing teh pitch style or bump and run in actual play. Unfortunately, I cannot find a decent place to practice the skid and stop shot that has greens of a practice area that are mown close to "real" greens so never really get to practice on the public places I play.

 

Curious though........what is the generally accepted proper technique to hit this shot? I would guess something like back in stance, low finish (to avoid popping it up) almost like a punch shot but I suppose to generate that much spin, you need to realyl come down on the club. Is that generally right or have I missed some elements here? Like I said, never tried it.

I personally play it like this:

1. Use a wedge with a lot of loft, I use a 58* and a urethane ball.

2. Narrow slightly open stance

3. ball off of inside of right heel

4. hands forward in normal off of inside of left thigh

5. break the wrists pretty quickly and hit it with a decending blow, feel like you are really squeezing the ball, I almost feel like the heel of the club is leading the way since I usually open the face slightly. Almost like a masse shot in pool.

6. Only attempt the shot off of a fairly tight lie, if any grass gets between the clubface and the ball it will tend to squirt on you and not check.

7. make sure you dont decel through the shot you have to trust the fact it will check up.

8. It will usually come out low, skip twice, and spin to a stop.

9. Practice is required.

 

I am not the greatest golfer in the world 6-8 handi depending......but the strength of my game is my wedge/short game. My buddies always love it when I pull this shot off because it is not a shot that the average guy can pull off. Works great when the pin is up front and the bump and run is not an option.

[NYGOLF]

Glad you two are working things out and talking nicely now :russian_roulette:

[Hathstauwk]

Does anyone know of a study that shows spin on partial wedge shots vs. full shots. Personally I don't like a lot of spin on full wedge shots, I just want the ball to sit down and stop, but like a lot of spin 40 yards in so I can hit the low burner and make it kinda skid, spin and check

 

 

This is a shot I actually want to learn. I have been playing teh pitch style or bump and run in actual play. Unfortunately, I cannot find a decent place to practice the skid and stop shot that has greens of a practice area that are mown close to "real" greens so never really get to practice on the public places I play.

 

Curious though........what is the generally accepted proper technique to hit this shot? I would guess something like back in stance, low finish (to avoid popping it up) almost like a punch shot but I suppose to generate that much spin, you need to realyl come down on the club. Is that generally right or have I missed some elements here? Like I said, never tried it.

I personally play it like this:

1. Use a wedge with a lot of loft, I use a 58* and a urethane ball.

2. Narrow slightly open stance

3. ball off of inside of right heel

4. hands forward in normal off of inside of left thigh

5. break the wrists pretty quickly and hit it with a decending blow, feel like you are really squeezing the ball, I almost feel like the heel of the club is leading the way since I usually open the face slightly. Almost like a masse shot in pool.

6. Only attempt the shot off of a fairly tight lie, if any grass gets between the clubface and the ball it will tend to squirt on you and not check.

7. make sure you dont decel through the shot you have to trust the fact it will check up.

8. It will usually come out low, skip twice, and spin to a stop.

9. Practice is required.

 

I am not the greatest golfer in the world 6-8 handi depending......but the strength of my game is my wedge/short game. My buddies always love it when I pull this shot off because it is not a shot that the average guy can pull off. Works great when the pin is up front and the bump and run is not an option.

 

 

Thank you - Awesome description and makes logical sense. Will try to find a place or maybe a semi-deserted course near dusk that I can practice on and empty hole. I would LOVE to have this in my aresnal.

 

You mention a front pin but wouldn't this work better with a back pin? I only ask because if you have a front pin, this seems to mean it would have to skip in front of the green....if tight there (maybe even baked out or hard pan) then would skip easily, otherwise, if spongy, would not have same effect.....is this right?

[dlygrisse]

Does anyone know of a study that shows spin on partial wedge shots vs. full shots. Personally I don't like a lot of spin on full wedge shots, I just want the ball to sit down and stop, but like a lot of spin 40 yards in so I can hit the low burner and make it kinda skid, spin and check

 

 

This is a shot I actually want to learn. I have been playing teh pitch style or bump and run in actual play. Unfortunately, I cannot find a decent place to practice the skid and stop shot that has greens of a practice area that are mown close to "real" greens so never really get to practice on the public places I play.

 

Curious though........what is the generally accepted proper technique to hit this shot? I would guess something like back in stance, low finish (to avoid popping it up) almost like a punch shot but I suppose to generate that much spin, you need to really come down on the club. Is that generally right or have I missed some elements here? Like I said, never tried it.

I personally play it like this:

1. Use a wedge with a lot of loft, I use a 58* and a urethane ball.

2. Narrow slightly open stance

3. ball off of inside of right heel

4. hands forward in normal off of inside of left thigh

5. break the wrists pretty quickly and hit it with a decending blow, feel like you are really squeezing the ball, I almost feel like the heel of the club is leading the way since I usually open the face slightly. Almost like a masse shot in pool.

6. Only attempt the shot off of a fairly tight lie, if any grass gets between the clubface and the ball it will tend to squirt on you and not check.

7. make sure you dont decel through the shot you have to trust the fact it will check up.

8. It will usually come out low, skip twice, and spin to a stop.

9. Practice is required.

 

I am not the greatest golfer in the world 6-8 handi depending......but the strength of my game is my wedge/short game. My buddies always love it when I pull this shot off because it is not a shot that the average guy can pull off. Works great when the pin is up front and the bump and run is not an option.

 

 

Thank you - Awesome description and makes logical sense. Will try to find a place or maybe a semi-deserted course near dusk that I can practice on and empty hole. I would LOVE to have this in my aresnal.

 

You mention a front pin but wouldn't this work better with a back pin? I only ask because if you have a front pin, this seems to mean it would have to skip in front of the green....if tight there (maybe even baked out or hard pan) then would skip easily, otherwise, if spongy, would not have same effect.....is this right?

YMMV here......I personally like to use less loft and run it to the back of the green with less spin, but that is just me. I personally like to use the spinner when I want it to stop fairly quickly, so when going to a back pin you tend to come up short. It is good to have a arsenal of numerous shots around the green, and then use the shot that feels the best. Very subjective. This is where practice and experimentation come in. If you use the shot for the back pin you really have to trust yourself to hit it hard enough and not knock her over the back of the green and short side yourself as well. It just all depends on feel and visualization and what you are trying to do..........

[dlygrisse]

Glad you two are working things out and talking nicely now :russian_roulette:

 

Yeah....good thing we are on-line or it may have come to blows :russian_roulette: but the thing that sucks is that since we don't live in each others vicinity we can't buy each other a beer afterwards either. :hunter:

Maybe I will have an extra for myself after work just so I feel better about things. :russian_roulette:

[Hathstauwk]

Glad you two are working things out and talking nicely now :russian_roulette:

 

Yeah....good thing we are on-line or it may have come to blows :russian_roulette: but the thing that sucks is that since we don't live in each others vicinity we can't buy each other a beer afterwards either. :hunter:

Maybe I will have an extra for myself after work just so I feel better about things. :russian_roulette:

 

A beer is always a good thing. I never come to blows over anything. That never solves any issue.

 

Sometimes it is fun baiting, sometimes it is honest debates, sometimes it is pig-headedness in refusing to accept another explanation, sometimes it is just plain being right. I will let all the readers determine what they think was my primary driver or combinations of these drivers in my threads. Either way, why beat a dead horse.

 

New line on the thread here and I am learning a new shot to try. I cannot wait to get out on the course and give it a try. I am playing a private course here in Houston tomorrow as a practice round for a tourney I have there next weekend (not my course as I am not a member anywhere but they let us on for a practice round). Hopefully there will not be many people out and I can practice this nifty shot.

 

On a totally unrealted front - I just got a call from a eyeglasses shop and my prescription Oakley Flak Jacket XLJ G30s just arrived so I get to try them tomorrow!!! Woo hoo!!!! No more normal eyeglasses with me squinting in the sun all the time! Oh yeah...and actually protecting my eyes on the course finally! Hopefully I can read greens with them on, too! Small prescription but helps to see what tree my ball entered the woods near. :(

 

DLGrisse...if you are down the Houston, way, I WILL buy you a beer. Call me on it sometime.

[dlygrisse]

Tiger had a track career at college also and even toyed witht he idea of a track career. He may be in the minority woth Golfers but he has incredible natural athetism as others on the tour do also. Not all footballers are supreme athletes for example and there will always be a variety of ability in participants even in the same sport. forevery Craig Stadler theres a Tiger Woods

 

Wow I have never heard Tiger had a track career do you know what events he competed in. Has anyone else heard this?

 

 

Glad you two are working things out and talking nicely now :russian_roulette:

 

Yeah....good thing we are on-line or it may have come to blows :russian_roulette: but the thing that sucks is that since we don't live in each others vicinity we can't buy each other a beer afterwards either. :hunter:

Maybe I will have an extra for myself after work just so I feel better about things. :russian_roulette:

 

A beer is always a good thing. I never come to blows over anything. That never solves any issue.

 

Sometimes it is fun baiting, sometimes it is honest debates, sometimes it is pig-headedness in refusing to accept another explanation, sometimes it is just plain being right. I will let all the readers determine what they think was my primary driver or combinations of these drivers in my threads. Either way, why beat a dead horse.

 

New line on the thread here and I am learning a new shot to try. I cannot wait to get out on the course and give it a try. I am playing a private course here in Houston tomorrow as a practice round for a tourney I have there next weekend (not my course as I am not a member anywhere but they let us on for a practice round). Hopefully there will not be many people out and I can practice this nifty shot.

 

On a totally unrealted front - I just got a call from a eyeglasses shop and my prescription Oakley Flak Jacket XLJ G30s just arrived so I get to try them tomorrow!!! Woo hoo!!!! No more normal eyeglasses with me squinting in the sun all the time! Oh yeah...and actually protecting my eyes on the course finally! Hopefully I can read greens with them on, too! Small prescription but helps to see what tree my ball entered the woods near. :(

 

DLGrisse...if you are down the Houston, way, I WILL buy you a beer. Call me on it sometime.

I would love to call you on it, BTW Grease was my nickname all thorugh school, so you weren't the first.........

[Arafel]

Glad you two are working things out and talking nicely now :russian_roulette:

 

Yeah....good thing we are on-line or it may have come to blows :russian_roulette: but the thing that sucks is that since we don't live in each others vicinity we can't buy each other a beer afterwards either. :(

Maybe I will have an extra for myself after work just so I feel better about things. :russian_roulette:

 

A beer is always a good thing. I never come to blows over anything. That never solves any issue.

 

Sometimes it is fun baiting, sometimes it is honest debates, sometimes it is pig-headedness in refusing to accept another explanation, sometimes it is just plain being right. I will let all the readers determine what they think was my primary driver or combinations of these drivers in my threads. Either way, why beat a dead horse.

 

New line on the thread here and I am learning a new shot to try. I cannot wait to get out on the course and give it a try. I am playing a private course here in Houston tomorrow as a practice round for a tourney I have there next weekend (not my course as I am not a member anywhere but they let us on for a practice round). Hopefully there will not be many people out and I can practice this nifty shot.

 

On a totally unrealted front - I just got a call from a eyeglasses shop and my prescription Oakley Flak Jacket XLJ G30s just arrived so I get to try them tomorrow!!! Woo hoo!!!! No more normal eyeglasses with me squinting in the sun all the time! Oh yeah...and actually protecting my eyes on the course finally! Hopefully I can read greens with them on, too! Small prescription but helps to see what tree my ball entered the woods near. ;)

 

DLGrisse...if you are down the Houston, way, I WILL buy you a beer. Call me on it sometime.

 

I will call you on it. :hunter:

 

You got nice and amiable when you got proven wrong.

 

You go from name calling to lets have a beer buddy. :D

 

Rodney King would be proud.

[Falang_Golfer]

I feel like I just watched one of those enemies-turned-buddies movies starring "eagle-cub-scout" and the "grease-man". Sheesh.

 

So back on topic, if grooves help clean out debris would it make more sense to have them vertical and have them run off the face (not stop)? Like the car tire analogy (he he he...)