Is reverse sandbagging wrong?

[hockeyplayer21]

I have a friend who is sitting at a 2.X handicap, however he does not input all of his rounds, only his "good rounds" or as he puts it the "rounds he feels he played to his standard." I tell him he's a cheater and the "standard" of your play is the average of every round, and his explanation is he is only hurting himself when it comes to handicapping. While I agree with this when it comes to him playing as a lower handicap in net tournaments/matches etc. he's only hurting himself. He is also using this strategy as a venue to get into state amateur qualifiers that he wouldn't necessarily be qualified for. I have been telling him it's cheating and not fair to other players who may not get an entry who actually qualify.

 

What is everyone's opinion on this? Should you put in every single round into your GHIN? Is he right or wrong?

[lookylookitzadam]

My stance is that every single round that is played in accordance with the rules of golf is to be recorded. 
 

 

[_chris]

He's only hurting himself. Someone will come along and feel he is sandbagging and take him for a wad. 

[kiawah]

As far as I know, the number of entries in most amateur tournaments, especially those with multiple qualifying sites, is probably not limited. I guess it depends. I think the only people he would really be hurting would be his playing partners if he truly has no business being there. If, per se, he's really a 5 handicap and he needs to be 4.4 or something to be eligible, then I would say go ahead, life is short, you only get so many chances to qualify, blah blah blah. 

 

The inherent problem with amateur golf is that the majority of the rounds people play are so low stakes. I simply don't believe or expect that A. every single guy posts all of their scores and B. that all of their scores are legitimate USGA rounds with every putt finished out, no mulligans, no preferred lies, no gimmes/concessions, etc. In my personal opinion, as long as your friend doesn't cheat in the tournament itself, it probably isn't the biggest deal in the world. 

 

I guess my question is this: how good does a round have to be for him to post it? I agree that if he's really only posting his top 50% of rounds, that his index is completely inflated and that he probably shouldn't waste someone else's time if and when he plays poorly. But I am of the impression that most people scrap a few rounds here or there (especially in winter/early spring when greens are punched and the weather is terrible).

[Mudguard]

Reverse sandbagging? Vanity Cap? 

 

I don't know how much you can do about it other than give them grief for not submitting cards. Probably the best thing is to get paired up and groan that you have no chance as their handicap is basically fictional. 

[Hawkeye77]

Yes. 

[hockeyplayer21]

19 minutes ago, kiawah said:

As far as I know, the number of entries in most amateur tournaments, especially those with multiple qualifying sites, is probably not limited. I guess it depends. I think the only people he would really be hurting would be his playing partners if he truly has no business being there. If, per se, he's really a 5 handicap and he needs to be 4.4 or something to be eligible, then I would say go ahead, life is short, you only get so many chances to qualify, blah blah blah. 

 

The inherent problem with amateur golf is that the majority of the rounds people play are so low stakes. I simply don't believe or expect that A. every single guy posts all of their scores and B. that all of their scores are legitimate USGA rounds with every putt finished out, no mulligans, no preferred lies, no gimmes/concessions, etc. In my personal opinion, as long as your friend doesn't cheat in the tournament itself, it probably isn't the biggest deal in the world. 

 

I guess my question is this: how good does a round have to be for him to post it? I agree that if he's really only posting his top 50% of rounds, that his index is completely inflated and that he probably shouldn't waste someone else's time if and when he plays poorly. But I am of the impression that most people scrap a few rounds here or there (especially in winter/early spring when greens are punched and the weather is terrible).

 

The tournaments are limited fields. So a "qualified" entrant may not make it because the subject in question took the spot... That's the issue I have with it more than anything.

 

Subject also brings up a good point. Wouldn't taking a gimme putt technically make a round not count towards handicap? Should true "ball in hole" be the only handicap rounds?

[MattM97]

Definitely should enter all scores but let your buddy get rocked in the mid am events and see what he does from there. 

[PJE]

Is it incorrect? Yes. 
Does it matter for club events? No, he’s making it harder for himself to successfully compete. 
Does it matter for high level gross events? Yes, because it’s a drag  and can be a distraction for truly qualified competitors to play with a guy who doesn’t belong. 
(Assuming it’s an event that anyone under x handicap can play in and he’s not otherwise taking someone’s spot. )
Not to be harsh towards your friend, but if he selectively posts round scores,  it makes one wonder just how accurately he keeps hole scores in the rounds he does post. 

Edited March 25 by PJE

[OnTheBag]

43 minutes ago, _chris said:

He's only hurting himself. Someone will come along and feel he is sandbagging and take him for a wad. 

I used to take these vanity cap guys to the bank.  Those are also the guys that like to brag about their index at the first tee.  $$$$$

[vandyfan]

59 minutes ago, hockeyplayer21 said:

While I agree with this when it comes to him playing as a lower handicap in net tournaments/matches etc. he's only hurting himself.

 

I used to think this was the case. Then I started playing in these team competitions (Ryder Cup style at our club) and we had a couple of known vanity caps on our team. They got wrecked and it hurt our team as well. One guy basically got yelled at in front of several other people along the lines of "if you aren't going to keep a real handicap, don't play on my team" etc. Obviously sandbagging is worse but vanity handicaps can really sink a team event as well. 

[Shilgy]

21 minutes ago, hockeyplayer21 said:

 

The tournaments are limited fields. So a "qualified" entrant may not make it because the subject in question took the spot... That's the issue I have with it more than anything.

 

Subject also brings up a good point. Wouldn't taking a gimme putt technically make a round not count towards handicap? Should true "ball in hole" be the only handicap rounds?

No

 

Most likely score: When a hole is started but a player doesn’t hole out

Let’s say the result of the hole has already been decided, or maybe you’ve benefited from a concession in match play. Perhaps your partner has already posted a better score than you in fourball and you’ve picked up.

Maybe you’ve been playing Stableford and you’ve already hit the net double bogey limit. Rule 3.3 in the USGA Rules of Handicapping covers what to do when a hole is started but a player doesn’t hole out.

We may be very familiar with the last example but, in various parts of the World Handicap System universe, if you have started a hole but don’t hole out “for a valid reason”, you can still enter a score on the hole for handicapping purposes.

That’s because Rule 3.3 says that, subject to other provisions set out in the rules, “the player must record their most likely score or net double bogey, whichever is lower, as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play”.

What is ‘most likely score’?

To work this out, you consider three things:

 

The number of strokes you’ve already taken to reach your position on the hole

– How many strokes you would most likely need to complete the hole from that position

– And any penalty shots you’ve already racked up while playing the hole

How many strokes is it going to need to get it down? Rule 3.3 provides a trio of guidelines for players to follow. If your ball is on the green, and is no more than five feet from the hole, you add one additional stroke.

If your ball is between five feet and 20 yards from the hole, you add two or three additional strokes – “depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player”.

If your ball is more than 20 yards from the hole, you add three or four additional strokes, again taking the ball’s position, the green and your ability into account.

 

[North Butte]

It's pathetic, like all other forms of posing as something you wish you were but are not.

[D0ch0l1d4y]

17 minutes ago, PJE said:

Is it incorrect? Yes. 
Does it matter for club events? No, he’s making it harder for himself to successfully compete. 
Does it matter for high level gross events? Yes, because it’s a drag  and can be a distraction for truly qualified competitors to play with a guy who doesn’t belong. 
(Assuming it’s an event that anyone under x handicap can play in and he’s not otherwise taking someone’s spot. )
Not to be harsh towards your friend, but if he selectively posts round scores,  it makes one wonder just how accurately he keeps hole scores in the rounds he does post. 

 

I've had direct experience with comment in bold. State Am qualifier and the three HCs in my group were 1.3, +1.8, +3.4. 

The +3.4 was much closer to a 34 than he was a 3.4...much less a +3.4. The other guy and I in our group stopped caring what he shot about the 4th hole when he hit double-digits over par for the round. We got put on the clock, and out of politeness and trying to expedite the round - spent a lot of unnecessary energy looking for his ball. 

 

Both of us missed qualifying by 1 shot and having Mr. Vanity cap certainly contributed at least that one shot.

[miami1023]

1 hour ago, lookylookitzadam said:

My stance is that every single round that is played in accordance with the rules of golf is to be recorded. 
 

 

There'd be no rounds to post for most players

[kiawah]

34 minutes ago, hockeyplayer21 said:

 

The tournaments are limited fields. So a "qualified" entrant may not make it because the subject in question took the spot... That's the issue I have with it more than anything.

 

Subject also brings up a good point. Wouldn't taking a gimme putt technically make a round not count towards handicap? Should true "ball in hole" be the only handicap rounds?

In my opinion, if your friend actually plays a 100% honest-to-goodness round that happens to be good enough to qualify, more power to him. I don't think that's totally unfair. The odds of him beating out an entire field of guys who should be better than him are not high. Come to think of it, one of my friends posted a BS score to get his cap down by 0.5 so it would be low enough to get into US Open locals and missed by a shot.

 

As long as your friend plays by the letter of the rules in the qualifier and wouldn't be a complete detriment to his playing partners, I think it's ok. If you follow Monday Q info on Twitter, you'll see a ton of instances of guys who are probably not even single-digit caps trying to qualify for pro events alongside guys fighting to make a living. I think that's absolutely terrible. But if your buddy wants to punch above his weight class and see what he can do in an am event, I don't mind it as long as he is honest. If he's totally new to tournaments, though, he should abstain and play in registration-entry events until he gets his bearings so as not to bother guys who have a real shot. 

 

Regarding what rounds should count for handicap, I think that if only true "ball in hole" rounds counted, you'd quickly eliminate at least a third or maybe even half of the rounds the guys in the field have played. There are some weird USGA rules about posting scores that indicate that you don't necessarily have to hole out every putt if they have been conceded by someone else in a match play/four ball/similar format, but I think you're just cheating yourself. Theoretically, if you just played match play every round, you could shave shots off of your handicap. When it comes to posting scores, only you know what is ok to pick up and what's not. I played yesterday and didn't finish every single putt, but I am trying to play primarily for enjoyment. I play a bunch with people I don't know, and out of courtesy and pace of play, there are times I don't bother hitting anything that's inside the leather. I still post those scores, and I don't think I'm really cheating anyone by doing so. My only caveat to this is that I can't and won't pick up a birdie putt even if it's 6 inches. Still, I don't think that should disqualify me from trying to qualify for amateur events altogether or invalidate my scores. I think if you have good judgment, good intentions, and a steadfast commitment to practice, you aren't really cheating anyone by picking up true "inside the leather" putts or playing the ball up in the winter/on wet days. 

[Pepperturbo]

It's not worth bothering with.  He's not hurting any field, just maybe himself on the days his game isn't up to his supposed standard.  Many of us do not set around thinking I am hurting myself, we raise to the occasion, others should try on confidence.

 

PS, this is Golfwrx DB.  NO one here is an authority on what's wrong or right, though some people like to think otherwise, and they would be wrong... LOL 

Edited March 25 by Pepperturbo

[st1800e]

Wrong? Yes.   Period.   

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, hockeyplayer21 said:

 

The tournaments are limited fields. So a "qualified" entrant may not make it because the subject in question took the spot... That's the issue I have with it more than anything.

 

Are you affected directly by his faux handicap in some way?

[hockeyplayer21]

16 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Are you affected directly by his faux handicap in some way?

 

Although I have played in some cash games with him as a partner where we've lost, I really haven't been. I just said the majority would feel that his "not posting" every score was more wrong than right and wanted to ask the masses. 

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, hockeyplayer21 said:

 

Although I have played in some cash games with him as a partner where we've lost, I really haven't been. I just said the majority would feel that his "not posting" every score was more wrong than right and wanted to ask the masses. 

 

The USGA handicap rules are what they are, seems obvious he doesn't follow them and you knew that from the outset, so what's this all about?

 

 

[tatertot]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Yes. 

'Nuff said.

[hockeyplayer21]

12 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

The USGA handicap rules are what they are, seems obvious he doesn't follow them and you knew that from the outset, so what's this all about?

 

 

He was stating what he was doing wasn't wrong at all by only posting his "low rounds"  vs. all rounds. He said people would agree with him. I told him he was wrong and they wouldn't if we left it to others.

[Treats]

3 hours ago, hockeyplayer21 said:

I have a friend who is sitting at a 2.X handicap,...

 

I tell him he's a cheater and the "standard" of your play....

 

He is also using this strategy as a venue to get into state amateur qualifiers that he wouldn't necessarily be qualified for.

I think your friend is a liar but not neccesarily a cheater.

 

There are a ton of golfers doing the same thing to enter high level events with handicap cutoffs...he's not the only doing it.

 

As he knows...his vanity cap is only hurting himself and that's his perogative.

 

There are 10x the numbers of vanity caps vs. sandbaggers (cheaters in net  & gambling events)

[Hawkeye77]

36 minutes ago, hockeyplayer21 said:

He was stating what he was doing wasn't wrong at all by only posting his "low rounds"  vs. all rounds. He said people would agree with him. I told him he was wrong and they wouldn't if we left it to others.

Obviously you were correct.

 

Rather then what "others" would think I'd just refer him to the USGA Rules regarding handicapping and a player's responsibilities, which include submitting all acceptable scores.

[Newby]

If there is strong evidence that a player is protecting an artificially low handicap many organisations will no longer accept their entry if there an upper limit and a ballot for entry. England Golf being one such.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, kiawah said:

As far as I know, the number of entries in most amateur tournaments, especially those with multiple qualifying sites, is probably not limited. I guess it depends.

 

It sure does depend. Around here all competitions have a maximum number of players accepted and if the list is full the normal way is to put players in the order of Handicap Indices and xxx players with lowest HI's will be accepted and the rest stay out. Thus reverse sandbagging is equally wrong as any sandbagging.

[rogolf]

We had a situation once where a player submitted a lower handicap than his actual in order to gain entry into a tournament (this was before computers and the ability to do online checks, an integrity thing).  The player played in the tournament before his actions were discovered.  He was banned from these competitions for two years.  It didn't do much for his reputation either.

Manipulating handicaps is an issue whether it's upwards or downwards, and there should be consequences taken by the Handicap Committees and the Committees running the competitions.

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, st1800e said:

Wrong? Yes.   Period.   

Posting when you picked up gimmes?  You should tell the USGA they’re wrong then. Not us.  
 

If it complies with the mandated posting rules then I have trouble seeing the issue.

 

If you’re saying the OP’s buddy is wrong in not posting all scores I 100% agree with you.

Edited March 26 by Shilgy

[st1800e]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Posting when you picked up gimmes?  You should tell the USGA they’re wrong then. Not us.  
 

If it complies with the mandated posting rules then I have trouble seeing the issue.

 

If you’re saying the OP’s buddy is wrong in not posting all scores I 100% agree with you.

Check the title of the topic.  I didn’t quote anyone.