Sandbagging? I need help!

[DoctorPal]

Am I missing something or is this guy sandbagging?

Let me posit this real-life situation as I'm a bit confused (diplomatic language for "skeptical as hell") as to how this can happen:

In a recent tournament, a guy shots a gross 73 on a par-70 layout that has a slope rating of 121. His net score ends up being 62, which wins him the tournament (out of nearly 100 guys). Thus, his course handicap was 11, right? Using the USGA Course Handicap Calculator and calculating backwards from his course handicap and factoring in the slope rating, this gives him a handicap rating of 10. If I have screwed up this calculation at all, I'd love for someone to correct me.

My question is the obvious: Is this guy sandbagging? My current handicap is 11.5 and I've never broken 80, even on courses with slope ratings below 130. I've shot a bunch of low- to mid-80s, including 81 twice this summer and an 80 last summer - and that's the closest I've ever come. However, I'm capable of going out the day after I shoot 81 and, on the same course, post a 94. Any of you with similar handicaps know that lovely feeling... I guess it's possible :jester: for a 10 handicap to shoot a 73 when everything is working, but I've never seen it from anyone whom I know to have a legit handicap in the 9-12 range. It just seems fishy to me.

I didn't play in the tournament in question, so him winning doesn't cheese me off directly, but if I were some of the other guys who played, I might have some questions.

If I've completely missed something, let me know. I've probably spent more time thinking about this than I should, but such an apparent disregard for the integrity of the game really horks me off.

[greengolfhippo]

There are a lot of thing to factor in. My index is 15.3 and my home course has 36 holes. If I play the green tees the slope is 135 and 138 and it plays to 6800 yards. If I play the blue tees the slope is 128 and 129 and plays to 6350.

Now I have played courses with a 121 slope at 6000 yards and have shot in the mid 70's. Also you need to study the course, wide open vs tight, number of bunkers and lenght of par 3', 4's and 5's. I hit my driver pretty straight and and good with my short and mid irons. So a course that was mid par 3's (around 150-160) and serveral par 4's less than 370 I can post a pretty good score. My problem is playing par 3's over 170 d's and par 4's over 390.

[Dizz]

Whats the course rating...I saw slope is 121. He could be a sandbagger, example I played yesterday on a course rated 74.1/139 and I shot 81 and I'm a +2 handicap. On my page, that score is listed as 5.6, they course couldnt be too difficult if he shot 73 and you figrued his cap as 10...

[wwhitehead]

I've played with 11s, 12s, and higher who have posted scores in the low 70s.

 

At my club, a guy went on a tear this summer....was a 15, started posting scores in the mid 70s, and won net divisions of two or three tournaments before his handicap adjusted.

 

The guy may have had a good day.

 

A related question might be: Could it be said that a third of guys only post their bad scores, a third of guys post only their good ones, and just a third of guys post all scores as they're supposed to?

 

WW

[oliversax]

I read somewhere (Golf Digest maybe?) that the chances of someone shooting 10 shots below his handicap is > 12,000:1. So that guy is either having the best round of his life or he's bagging...

 

Remember that handicap is the avg of your best 50%, it's a measure of your potential, not your avg. If his potential is +11 and he legitimately shot a +1, then he's having an out of body experience. :jester:

[HackerD]

A net 62 is indeed a great score. Though if the course rating is well below 70, it's not unbelievably great. What score finished 2nd?

 

FWIW the USGA handicap system has a special adjustment when someone's tournament scores are substantially lower than the handicap would predict.

[HackerD]

Definitely need to take course rating into account. It's par 70 so if course rating is 68 then he is only 6 shots under handicap (68+11=79 vs 73).

[Johnny]

that slope is pretty low.. it's certainly possible for it to happen. Hell I just need a good driving day and I'll do that.

[DoctorPal]

I thought there might be other things at play - that's why I asked.

Thanks.

[kiwidave]

I cant say much. I had net 62 in the weekend. 68 off a 6 but I have been on scratch before, but going through a swing change. Wasn't the hardest course in the world but it is possible.

 

Maybe the guy used to be lower than an 11

[AirTime23]

Two years ago I shot 74 on a par 71 layout (CR: 72 / Slope 130), and I was off 9 then...won me a trip to the Canary Islands ;-))

 

Never got closer than 2 shots ever again....go figure!

[Hathstauwk]

I cant say much. I had net 62 in the weekend. 68 off a 6 but I have been on scratch before, but going through a swing change. Wasn't the hardest course in the world but it is possible.

 

Maybe the guy used to be lower than an 11

 

The above is the key point. Maybe he used to be a lot better. I, like Kiwidave, did a similar thing several years back. I went through a huge swing change (entire swing, grip, posture, etc) and had been a 7 at the time. During the transition, as expected, I shot much higher scores as I tried to take my new swing to the course. My handicap went up to about 10.5 or something and then, 2 weeks befor our club championship, my new swing "clicked". I was immediately playing to a consistent 6 index but since this was after the last index revision prior to the tournament, I went into the tourney with a 10.5.

 

I was accused of sand bagging but I had a legitimate reason for playing better. Now, I never shot a net 62 but when talking of a 72 hole tourney, it is a lot harder to have a "fluke" net 62 and still place well. Plus, I was only a shot ahead of one other guy and we were both 3 clear of the next group of people. I won the tournament but legitimately posted every score I had but it was the swing change circumstance that had my handicap higher in the first place.

 

That said, there are a lot of sandbaggers out there and if they feel the need to cheat to win a tourney, then really, that is their issue. I am not playing this game for a living and while I love to win, if someone else beats me by cheating then so be it. Golf is a game you play between you and the course and later see how that matches up with others playing the same tournament.

 

The place where I have seen the most prolific examples of sandbagging: DuPont World Amateur Handicap Chapionships in Myrtle Beach, SC (not sure if still sponsored by DuPont but it used to be). It is one of the reasons I do not play in that tourney anymore. Good time but gets old when you see guys playing 72 holes averaging 6 shots under their index. It is possible but it is widely known that a large percentage of people sandbag in that tourney. Yes, they review, adjust and even DQ some that they find out but many guys outsmart them and it just makes for a fun 72 hole outing but the tournament is pretty much out of reach unless you fall into the "rejuvenated golf game" category as described above.

[The Ultimate Spin]

I read somewhere (Golf Digest maybe?) that the chances of someone shooting 10 shots below his handicap is > 12,000:1. So that guy is either having the best round of his life or he's bagging...

 

Remember that handicap is the avg of your best 50%, it's a measure of your potential, not your avg. If his potential is +11 and he legitimately shot a +1, then he's having an out of body experience. :jester:

 

 

I don't think this applies to players who are starting to take their game to the next level. It happens all the time. Assuming he has posted numerous scores recently I don't think you have much of a case.

 

Another possibility is that he is very inconsistent. If you look at his scores and you see very low scores and very high scores that could tell you something. He may never hit his handicap...I know a guy like that. (Note: if all the low scores are during tournaments, then you may have something)

[finalist]

a 9 handcp shot a 72 in my club's last stroke play tournament. He won low gross and low net. Seems to happen a lot. Low single digit players don't stand a chance in most club tournaments unless there is a scratch flight, but that's rare. Honestly I think these guys have been playing for decades and post lots of mid 80 scores because they are casual rounds, they don't try their hardest, and have a few beers or something. They've been playing golf for so long that they don't get excited over a casual round. When a tournament comes around they grind over every shot and then they shoot their real potential. it sucks.

[grabthepin]

Ever seen those ads with some fat guy turning totally ripped in 3 months, due to some training method or supplement? Well they're true, but those fat guys were ripped prior and just got out of shape. They know what they have to do and their body has been there before - it's relatively easy for them.

 

And it happens with golf. I was on 6, injury, many years off, had to reestablish a handicap and was put on 23. But it was true, I had trouble even playing to that, and no-one called me a sandbagger for many months.

 

But working on my game for a lot things are coming back. I shoot 8 over the other day and win by 4 strokes. But I was more pissed off that I 3-putted 5 times and could have lost 6 strokes off my handicap instead of only 4 (Aussie handicap system).

 

I get called a sandbagger all the time but it doesn't bother me in the least because there's nothing I can do about it but patiently wait for it to come down and unfortunately my consistency at the moment means I either blitz my handicap or can't play to it.

 

What did piss me off was 3-putting from 1.5' at 16 in that round above and being accused of not wanting to win by too much.

[larrybud]

I give people the benefit of the doubt for 1 round. Anyone can get hot. While it might be true that it's a 1 in 12,000 chance of doing it, so is a hole-in-one. Just because the odds of something happening are remote, it doesn't mean they're zero. Look at lottery winners for in 1 100 million.

 

What matter is the trend of this particular player. If he's coming in the top 10 all the time in a net tourney, and his 'cap hasn't changed in 6 months, there's your sandbagger. However, if you see his handicap coming down each tournament, he's probably just getting better.

 

I only enter net tournies for the fun of it. I'm now a 2.7 and usually don't have a chance to win.

[DoctorPal]

I would say it is unusual for an 11 never to have broken 80. OK, maybe not often, but never?

 

Nope, never done it. I score in the 80s pretty much consistently. I just can't seem to get over that magical barrier.

[Ghost_Orchid]

a 9 handcp shot a 72 in my club's last stroke play tournament. He won low gross and low net. Seems to happen a lot. Low single digit players don't stand a chance in most club tournaments unless there is a scratch flight, but that's rare. Honestly I think these guys have been playing for decades and post lots of mid 80 scores because they are casual rounds, they don't try their hardest, and have a few beers or something. They've been playing golf for so long that they don't get excited over a casual round. When a tournament comes around they grind over every shot and then they shoot their real potential. it sucks.

 

 

I hate handicaps, i think all tourneys should be played straight up. On a different note, i'm a 8 HDCP and shot 80 and 74 in my club championship. Tied for 6th overall and 2nd for net. That 74 was by best score ever, i shot 74 again a week later. I actually felt guilty that as a legit 8 HDCP, I shot 74 and actually won some money. I'm sure some of the guys were thinking 'sandbagger'. I have the swing and long game of a scratch player, but my putting and short game is what makes me an 8 HDCP.

[lchang]

Just another data point: I have a close friend who, at the time, was an inconsistent 18 (now he's an inconsistent 13) and shot a legitimate 78 on a course he knows well. It wasn't a tournament round, but it would have been a net 59.

 

That was years ago and he's only broken 80 once since then, I think. So, I guess it does happen. I was glad for him that it didn't happen during a tournament round because everyone would have assumed he was sandbagging (and he wasn't!)

[larrybud]

I would say it is unusual for an 11 never to have broken 80. OK, maybe not often, but never?

Depends on the course, right? A local muni with a 67 rating, 112 slope, or a nice difficult track that's 73/136...

[rblmp32]

I never sniffed the low 70's til I was a low single digit 'cap. But then, I usually tend to play harder courses. I guess it's possible, but pretty unlikely. Every squirrel finds a nut I guess. :)

[Logie]

My offical HCP is 15.3, and i often go on course to shoot a mid 70's but i keep getting that bad hole or 2 hoels that bump me into the low 80's.

 

If i could cut them out then i would shoot mid to high 70's. I always hand my cards in, im really looking forward to getting a single digit handicap. But im often told im stupid, i should ONLY hand in cards that i have got from playing in club comps, because if i lower it i stand no chance of winning in competitions.

 

Now quite a few people have told me this, so im never supprised to see people shoot a crazy score of a HDCP which indicates that score should not be possible! Its done on purpose IMO to give them a chance of, if they want to turn on the swing. Can help them win!

 

Then theres the others like me who are trying, just have a bad hole or two and that puts that 70's score into the 80's. Hopefully there will be one day when i cut out that bad hole(s).

 

But i often hear people manipulate there handicap so they stand a chance in the comps. Using the UK system, its not so easy to get your HDCP up or down. Everytime i hand my card in i get .3 taken off per card under my HDCP, only +0.1 for a bad card