the sand bunker...

[Marrrk]

how severe of a penalty is it supposed to be?

so, when your shot lands in a huge footprint in a bunker, or, all the bunkers at a particular course you are playing at are riddled with footprints, do you feel cheated? or, do you say to yourself, this is a bunker, it's a hazard, it's not supposed to be easy, footprints and nasty depressions are part of their very fiber.

now, i know rules-wise what the deal is, but it seems as if there is a general expectation that bunkers should be well-raked and you should expect a clean lie... unless you've buried it yourself with the shot. is that true? when bunkers were originally devised were they supposed to be uneven and inconsistent, virtually assuring a lost shot? or, were smoothly raked bunkers that leave you a chance for a strong shot out what was always strived for?

i only ask because somehow, i've managed to remove all angst from myself that accompanies a footprint lie in the bunker. it's a pit of sand, i expect massive inconsistency. i think the whole rake thing itself is actually a quite surprising development.

or, am i way off and missing the point of the bunker? is a bad lie an unnecessary double penalty, as the plain bunker shot itself is already challenge enough? if rakes are provided and expected to be used, aren't we then leaving ourselves to the mercy and consideration of those who are playing ahead of us? and if so, why not rake and replace; sort of like lift, clean, and place?

this also brings up the fact that we have to play out of fairway divots left behind by others, as if they are a natural part of the course anymore than a water hose or a port-a-potty. not being able to drop out of a fairway divot must be the stupidest requirement in the entire game.

[PingG10]

Amen

 

I'm generally o.k. with the unraked bunkers, I expect it most of the time.

 

I'm totally against hitting out of unrepaired divots on the fairway but I do because of the inane interpretation of abnormal ground conditions by the USGA-courses tell you to repair your divots, so if it is obviously unrepaired (i.e. no sign of sand/seed, no obvious signs of turf replacement nearby) then it should be considered an abnormal ground condition and free relief provided for under the rules

[Ronzo]

Marrrk, I recall playing the Queens munis as a kid, and when I moved to Long Island, Eisenhower Park seemed like heaven. But I can't remember the last time a bunker there saw a rake. (On the White course, especially.) Learning to play the "hatchet shot" out of a footprint in a steep-sided bunker to an elevated green makes most bunker shots I see down in South Florida look easy. As opposed to some of my playing partners, I yell at the ball to go IN the bunker on my (many) misses, rather than having to chip from Bermuda rough. But that's just me.

[greengolfhippo]

It is just stupid me but I say play it as it lies. Divots, footprints or what ever it is the rub of the green as they say. So play it as it is and move on.

[Marrrk]

Marrrk, I recall playing the Queens munis as a kid, and when I moved to Long Island, Eisenhower Park seemed like heaven. But I can't remember the last time a bunker there saw a rake. (On the White course, especially.) Learning to play the "hatchet shot" out of a footprint in a steep-sided bunker to an elevated green makes most bunker shots I see down in South Florida look easy. As opposed to some of my playing partners, I yell at the ball to go IN the bunker on my (many) misses, rather than having to chip from Bermuda rough. But that's just me.

 

sounds EXTREMELY familiar. i played Eisenhower a couple times this summer and the bunkers were by far the worst i'd seen in a long time. both consistency and upkeep were poor. for a complex that hosts a Senior tour event, it's a shame.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Agreed as above posters have said play it like its right off of frankenstiens freaking foot.

 

Rant time

 

People when at all possible which is at least 90% of the time walk into a bunker at the low point of entry, stop being lazy and walk a few extra feet or pick up a rake. I am sick and tired of having to hit out of your size 10 craters in the face of the bunker. It really sucks when you have to hit out of a huge footprint on an uphill bunker shot againsty a lip with a foot of sand in front of your ball because some lazy person cant rake a trap or enter a bunker on the low side. Now I have to hit out of a crater the size of Lake Michigan, when normally my ball would have rolled back to a nice flat spot.

Ok rant over

 

With the exception of the above I actually enjoy greenside bunkers, and the challenge they present.

[Marrrk]

i'd like to hear more thoughts about the history of the bunker as it relates to this, if anyone has any. i think we're all in agreement that you're supposed to play it as it lies, that's a given. i'd like to talk more about the seemingly contradictory nature of the bunker, the rake, and our expectations.

[xan_user]

so, when your shot lands in a huge footprint in a bunker, or, all the bunkers at a particular course you are playing at are riddled with footprints, do you feel cheated? or, do you say to yourself, this is a bunker, it's a hazard, it's not supposed to be easy, footprints and nasty depressions are part of their very fiber.

 

now, i know rules-wise what the deal is, but it seems as if there is a general expectation that bunkers should be well-raked and you should expect a clean lie... unless you've buried it yourself with the shot. is that true? when bunkers were originally devised were they supposed to be uneven and inconsistent, virtually assuring a lost shot? or, were smoothly raked bunkers that leave you a chance for a strong shot out what was always strived for?

 

i only ask because somehow, i've managed to remove all angst from myself that accompanies a footprint lie in the bunker. it's a pit of sand, i expect massive inconsistency. i think the whole rake thing itself is actually a quite surprising development.

 

or, am i way off and missing the point of the bunker? is a bad lie an unnecessary double penalty, as the plain bunker shot itself is already challenge enough? if rakes are provided and expected to be used, aren't we then leaving ourselves to the mercy and consideration of those who are playing ahead of us? and if so, why not rake and replace; sort of like lift, clean, and place?

 

this also brings up the fact that we have to play out of fairway divots left behind by others, as if they are a natural part of the course anymore than a water hose or a port-a-potty. not being able to drop out of a fairway divot must be the stupidest requirement in the entire game.

 

The pros on TV get to hit to safe, fluffy, consistent bunkers as targets. "Whew, glad thats in the bunker, not the rough" " Wow, that player really caught a break landing in that bunker, Jhonny."

 

We get deer tracks, cat poop, rocks, mud and foot prints made by Sasquatch.

 

They get fore caddies and trampled flat rough, if your lucky enough to have a wayward shot land over the ropes. And free drops from grandstands ant TV equipment. (back stops)

 

We get barking dogs and poorly marked hazards, ground repair and OB.

 

When your pro or a trump you can afford to not have those things effect your score.

 

Today I realized the yardages on the score card don't even add up right at my muni! If you add each holes yardages up, it comes out to less than the stated total course yardage. :lol:

[One_Putt_Blunder]

i'd like to hear more thoughts about the history of the bunker as it relates to this, if anyone has any. i think we're all in agreement that you're supposed to play it as it lies, that's a given. i'd like to talk more about the seemingly contradictory nature of the bunker, the rake, and our expectations.

 

 

Per USGA Etiquette section

 

Care of the Course

 

Bunkers

 

Before leaving a bunker, players should carefully fill up and smooth over all holes and footprints made by them and any nearby made by others. If a rake is within reasonable proximity of the bunker, the rake should be used for this purpose.

View Bunker Etiquette Animation

 

Repair of Divots, Ball-Marks and Damage by Shoes

 

Players should carefully repair any divot holes made by them and any damage to the putting green made by the impact of a ball (whether or not made by the player himself). On completion of the hole by all players in the group, damage to the putting green caused by golf shoes should be repaired.

View Divot Repair Etiquette Animation

[Ronzo]

sounds EXTREMELY familiar. i played Eisenhower a couple times this summer and the bunkers were by far the worst i'd seen in a long time. both consistency and upkeep were poor. for a complex that hosts a Senior tour event, it's a shame.

 

Nevertheless, it still beats Douglaston and Kissena Park. There was no grass at all in the tee boxes, and you needed a cordless electric drill with your tee chucked in it to get the ball teed up. Cutting screw threads into it helped.

[Ronzo]

Repair of Divots, Ball-Marks and Damage by Shoes

 

Players should carefully repair any divot holes made by them and any damage to the putting green made by the impact of a ball (whether or not made by the player himself). On completion of the hole by all players in the group, damage to the putting green caused by golf shoes should be repaired.

View Divot Repair Etiquette Animation

 

LOL! "Grass Side Up!" :lol:

[xan_user]

Repair of Divots, Ball-Marks and Damage by Shoes

 

Players should carefully repair any divot holes made by them and any damage to the putting green made by the impact of a ball (whether or not made by the player himself). On completion of the hole by all players in the group, damage to the putting green caused by golf shoes should be repaired.

View Divot Repair Etiquette Animation

 

LOL! "Grass Side Up!" :lol:

 

Damn, been doing it wrong all this time... ;)

 

Today someone left a fully embed ball on t#4 green. (That or stepped on it) Totally flush with the surface of the green.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Repair of Divots, Ball-Marks and Damage by Shoes

 

Players should carefully repair any divot holes made by them and any damage to the putting green made by the impact of a ball (whether or not made by the player himself). On completion of the hole by all players in the group, damage to the putting green caused by golf shoes should be repaired.

View Divot Repair Etiquette Animation

 

LOL! "Grass Side Up!" :lol:

 

hhahahaha didnt watch the video or I would have seen capitan obvious on that.

 

is it really that hard/time consuming to rake a bunker, replace/fill a divot with sand mix or repair ball marks on a green. I would love to hear from someone who does none of the above on why they cant take the time to do so.(not like anyone will own up to it though)

[xan_user]

Rather than wasting time with a rake i just drive the cart back and forth through the trap a few times, smooths it right out. Whats wrong with that? :lol:

[scs1070]

I actually had this conversation with a friend over the weekend, it stemmed from me saying that I would rather my ball land in a bunker than the rough. After a long talk about why (becuase bunkers tend to be more consistant than the rough and I feel like I have a better chance at up and down), the phrase "but it's suppose to be a hazard!" came out. That got us talking about when bunkers stopped being a hazard and beme a blessing.

[Marrrk]

I actually had this conversation with a friend over the weekend, it stemmed from me saying that I would rather my ball land in a bunker than the rough. After a long talk about why (becuase bunkers tend to be more consistant than the rough and I feel like I have a better chance at up and down), the phrase "but it's suppose to be a hazard!" came out. That got us talking about when bunkers stopped being a hazard and beme a blessing.

 

exactly my point!

[Bomb and Gouge]

For the most part, the margin for error from a bunker is greater than hitting from the rough.

[larrybud]

I was playing in my league championship last week and on the 8th hole, par 5, hit my ball into a greenside bunker. It rained the entire day before and some still had water in them. All of the sand was hard mud.

 

Now, I'm a pretty good bunker player, and can get out of all kinds of situtations. My opponent gets up to my ball before me and says "Wow, looks like you're plugged". I figure, no way I'm plugged, the bunkers are hard as a rock. I get up to the ball, and I'm sitting in a nice wedge shaped divot left by some real nice guy. The top of the ball is BARELY above the surface of the mud. Geesh. It was hard enough shot as it was because of the angle of the bunker and it was a good distance from the hole.

 

I get up there and come down super steep, ball comes out low, and amazing stayed on the green about 20' from the pin. I nearly holed it for birdie. One of the best shots I've ever made.

 

So we in the bar after the round, and ask the guys who were playing in front of us if anyone didn't rake a bunker on the 8th hole. I finally squeezed it out of one guy that he was the cause of the giant wedge of mud that was missing. He claimed he couldn't rake it, but I certainly had no problem doing so! I gave him some crap about it (all in fun), and luckily that shot didn't affect the outcome of the match. We still lost!

[Ronzo]

For the most part, the margin for error from a bunker is greater than hitting from the rough.

 

Absolutely true, but a lot of mid-cap amateurs are still terrified of them -- unnecessarily, IMO. I played a scramble where we had a ball in a bunker right in front of the green with a dead flat lie, excellent stance, and sitting right up, with 30 feet of green to work with and a low lip... but the foursome overruled me and took the chunky lie in 4" Bermuda rough over 50 feet away to chip from instead. The foursome got up and down, but I still think they cost us a chance at birdie. With four players hitting that shot with a preferred lie, somebody had a good chance to hole it out.

[Ronzo]

Rather than wasting time with a rake i just drive the cart back and forth through the trap a few times, smooths it right out. Whats wrong with that? :lol:

Three words for you: "Grass Side Up". ;)

[Marrrk]

when did rakes first appear? that's really what i'm looking for here...

[One_Putt_Blunder]

when did rakes first appear? that's really what i'm looking for here...

 

Mark this is the best I could find so far today.

Regarding the last category, the bunker rake as we know it today has only been a part of the game's recent history. Many courses did not use bunker rakes as late as the 1960s. Some top-ranked courses still do not use rakes as they deem it more penal to play from an un-raked area, and of course, some golfers may not use them even when they are available, making footprint lies an unfortunate reality for others who follow them.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2007/dec/09/Bunker-Lies/

also quoted on pga.com

http://www.pga.com/2008/instruction/featur...1207/index.html

[foxinsocks1]

Bunkers are not that penalizing at all. Assuming it has been decently raked you generally get a similar lie every single time besides the occasional fried egg. This is not true whatsoever in the rough. It is so much easier to predict how the ball will come out of the sand if you are a decent sand player. Let's face it, almost every pro would much rather be in the bunker than the rough. I think thick rough is at least 5x times worse than being in the bunker

[Marrrk]

when did rakes first appear? that's really what i'm looking for here...

 

Mark this is the best I could find so far today.

Regarding the last category, the bunker rake as we know it today has only been a part of the game's recent history. Many courses did not use bunker rakes as late as the 1960s. Some top-ranked courses still do not use rakes as they deem it more penal to play from an un-raked area, and of course, some golfers may not use them even when they are available, making footprint lies an unfortunate reality for others who follow them.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2007/dec/09/Bunker-Lies/

also quoted on pga.com

http://www.pga.com/2008/instruction/featur...1207/index.html

 

alright! now we're talking! anyone have any evidence of the first uses of rakes? i wonder if there was some greenskeeper mastermind behind it all.

 

it's fascinating that even in the 60's they still weren't fully standard fare. just goes to show.

 

EDIT: anyone know any courses that still dont use rakes?

[PurePursuit]

Just a guess but bunkers probably stopped being penal since the "Sand Wedge". Second you put some decent bounce on a higher lofted wedge you could do it with ease. I prefer bunkers because you can almost always spin the hell out of a ball from a bunker (unless its plugged).

[One_Putt_Blunder]

It is a little backwards here in az as we usually dont have any real rough so to speak of, however being in a bunker on most courses out here is like a crap shoot, you never know what is under the top layer of sand. Most of the time it is hard packed mud and the bounce of the wedge will hit that rebound and you will end up catching one thin.

[Ronzo]

when did rakes first appear? that's really what i'm looking for here...

 

Mark this is the best I could find so far today.

Regarding the last category, the bunker rake as we know it today has only been a part of the game's recent history. Many courses did not use bunker rakes as late as the 1960s. Some top-ranked courses still do not use rakes as they deem it more penal to play from an un-raked area, and of course, some golfers may not use them even when they are available, making footprint lies an unfortunate reality for others who follow them.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2007/dec/09/Bunker-Lies/

also quoted on pga.com

http://www.pga.com/2008/instruction/featur...1207/index.html

 

alright! now we're talking! anyone have any evidence of the first uses of rakes? i wonder if there was some greenskeeper mastermind behind it all.

 

it's fascinating that even in the 60's they still weren't fully standard fare. just goes to show.

 

EDIT: anyone know any courses that still dont use rakes?

 

Obvious answer, Marrrk: any NYC or Town of Hempstead muni! :lol:

[foxinsocks1]

Muirfield Village has used the modified rakes that make the gap between lines larger. I think Jack took them away for a while but brought them back in I believe, 2007. Boy did the players complain. Also, didn't they use similar rakes at Oakmont for the 07 US Open?

[AcesAZ]

Don't hit it in the bunker! :lol:

[Bomb and Gouge]

The bunkers at Olympia Fields are very penal! They're so deep that I couldn't get more than a 7-iron on any ball from the fairway traps.