Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[martinez]

martinez,

Add this batter image to your pitcher's images. I think you will appreciate the insights

added to the image..... dts

 

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/heal...transition.html

That guy has some interesting thoughts^^.

 

Yeah the pitching is not meant to be the entire swing, a be all and end all answer. It was my starting place. The takeaway is key.

[psd]

Nice to see some civility come to this thread. for those interested, I found the article that refers to Ben Hogan at Olympic Club in 1955 re: which foot slipped. Enjoy:

 

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...78646/index.htm

[downtoscratch]

martinez,

Add this batter image to your pitcher's images. I think you will appreciate the insights

added to the image..... dts

 

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/heal...transition.html

That guy has some interesting thoughts^^.

 

Yeah the pitching is not meant to be the entire swing, a be all and end all answer. It was my starting place. The takeaway is key.

 

I agree, martinez................ you do too. Check out Kel's articles that run in the sidebar of the one posted, especially the one about how Tiger squares the clubface. dts

[Lake]

Nice to see some civility come to this thread. for those interested, I found the article that refers to Ben Hogan at Olympic Club in 1955 re: which foot slipped. Enjoy:

 

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...78646/index.htm

 

Nice find psd... if you scroll down on that link there is this link to some of his videos:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...12-31/index.htm

[Ezgolfer]

Not very clear whether it was the right or the left ...

 

 

Here is someone saying right foot .

 

http://www.majorsofgolf-digital.com/majors..._usoopen

 

/?pg=40://http://www.majorsofgolf-digital.com...soopen

 

/?pg=40

 

 

Another one with right foot .....

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=fzOqaAo3O...5&ct=result

[sevam1]

Not very clear whether it was the right or the left ...

 

 

Here is someone saying right foot .

 

http://www.majorsofgolf-digital.com/majors..._usoopen

 

/?pg=40://http://www.majorsofgolf-digital.com...soopen

 

/?pg=40://http://www.majorsofgolf-digital.com...soopen

 

/?pg=40://http://www.majorsofgolf-digital.com...soopen

 

/?pg=40

 

 

Another one with right foot .....

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=fzOqaAo3O...5&ct=result

 

I had always heard right foot. The SI article referenced earlier is the first story I have seen in that conflicts with that. I guess the only thing that can resolve this one now is a quote from Hogan or perhaps from someone close enough to witness it. Fleck perhaps.

 

Sevam1

[Ezgolfer]

http://books.google.com/books?id=txoptDvRO...1&ct=result

 

 

Here is Byron hitting a hook after his right foot slipped .

 

( Too much wine tonight ....)

[dminn23]

Most people will hook if their right foot slips. I've watched my buddy do it. I've done it on wet tee boxes with broken scorpions in the shoe. It makes it so your body can't open up, which causes a bad sling and then you hit a nasty leftward diving hook that makes you nauseous. Not to mention you kinda freak mid swing when it happens. I'm willing to bet it was his right foot slipped.

[Poke]

Nice to see some civility come to this thread. for those interested, I found the article that refers to Ben Hogan at Olympic Club in 1955 re: which foot slipped. Enjoy:

 

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...78646/index.htm

 

This article would carry more weight if it was a report on the '55 tournament, not a preview of Olympic before the '66 US open.

[Tigersworld]

"He still falls back". Yes, and therein lies the truth. In order to fall back, consider that he falls back from WHERE?

Just as surely as Bubba Watson ( a Fred Couples on steroids!!) today, Hogan is rebounding from a forceful momentum shift into and onto his left leg /side. Hang back on the other hand implies never reaching the front leg. dts

Do you older guys remember a teacher named Joe Nichols? His claim to fame was the "Rotor" and he taught many tour players. This falling back discussion reminds me of one of the funniest things I ever heard during a lesson. I was watching Joe teach a former US Women's Open Champion on my practice tee around 1980. She was hitting these beautiful little 50 yard pitches. Her swing looked a little strange though... after every swing she would fall back on her right foot.

 

Player: "Joe, this just doesn't feel right to me?"

 

Joe "What do you mean, it's PERFECT!"

 

Player "But Joe, I'm falling back on my right foot?"

 

Joe "It's PERFECT. You are hitting the ball so solid, the compression is literally knocking you back."

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I'll never forget that line!!!

 

Kevin

 

I know softball guy but look at the tripping angles don't they look very very similar and check out the rebound effect also with a great power. He breaks down his swing up to the 3:15 mark then swing footage. Maybe Joe Nichols is softball guy now?

 

JuNiOR

 

[RJC59]

hogans secret imo:

 

he gave us the first part... the cupping of the left wrist..

 

 

2nd part was cupping of right wrist on downswing...

 

had to cup left on way back in order to be able to have the luxury of cupping right wrist on downswing, otherwise his right wrist would have achieved a maximum cup already.

 

It gave him such an extreme angle/lag at a very late part in the swing, so basically it would be impossible for the clubhead to outrace his hands until well after impact.. it also automated the bowing in his left wrist. You can see in his grip and address position that his right wrist is extremely straight or bowed, or as homer kelly wrote in TGM a "strong single action" type of positon of the right hand, so that the range of motion in the right wrist was at its fullest potential. As he does his waggle it seems the only thing hes concerned about is accentuating a cupping in his right wrist, basically automating it for later in the swing.

 

 

just My opinion

 

its clear to me he did it in this video: especially in the shorter swings wearing a white shirt. everyone please keep in mind the video is slowed down a bit.

 

 

[Squish]

Thank you Squish,

 

Took me 2 solid months on this site to finally get this.

 

I invert left on backswing. Inversion creates tremendous leverage allowing me to literally pull my entire body through the shot from the ball of my left foot. I believe the ball of the left foot is what the other end of Hogan's elastic strap was tied to. Left foot is the only constant as right foot position varies.

 

I've always been told that a pull is better than a push when it comes to power. My only right side function now is the right buttock pushing leftward immediately following the beginning of the pull forward - and my right hand hitting as hard as I can.

 

This is a new move for me, but I'm feeling amazing leverage. As a check, my navel moves targetward faster than it ever has. I can't move my navel as fast and as consistent doing it with the right. Pulling with the left gives me the right amount of forward and around every time (so far). I don't even have to focus on pushing the left knee outward in transition - pulling force does that for me and also creates a "snap" to the top as the left knee wants to straighten.

 

This makes great sense to me now hearing that Hogan's left foot slipped - certainly would create a pull hook. I think this is what was happening also as they say 5 Lessons created a world of "hip spinners". Their elastic band wasn't "attached" to anything.

 

Thanks

 

Yes Sir,

 

That is what I found.

The way you explain it, I really think you got it.

The leading left shoulder connection becomes a breeze.

 

You will find the faster you do it, it delofts and lowers the trajectory, also the ball checks quicker on the green.

Try an under hand lobbing release, you get a tight medium fade. A nice parabolic arching flight.

[Squish]

hogans secret imo:

 

he gave us the first part... the cupping of the left wrist..

 

 

2nd part was cupping of right wrist on downswing...

 

had to cup left on way back in order to be able to have the luxury of cupping right wrist on downswing, otherwise his right wrist would have achieved a maximum cup already.

 

It gave him such an extreme angle/lag at a very late part in the swing, so basically it would be impossible for the clubhead to outrace his hands until well after impact.. it also automated the bowing in his left wrist.

 

 

just My opinion

 

its clear as day he did it in this video: especially in the shorter swings wearing a white shirt. everyone please keep in mind the video is slowed down a bit.

 

By far my favorite Hogan video. RJC59

[NINEBALL]

Yes Sir,

 

That is what I found.

The way you explain it, I really think you got it.

The leading left shoulder connection becomes a breeze.

 

You will find the faster you do it, it delofts and lowers the trajectory, also the ball checks quicker on the green.

Try an under hand lobbing release, you get a tight medium fade. A nice parabolic arching flight.

 

 

Will do - Austin karate chop

 

Thanks

[moehogan]

hogans secret imo:

 

he gave us the first part... the cupping of the left wrist..

 

 

2nd part was cupping of right wrist on downswing...

 

had to cup left on way back in order to be able to have the luxury of cupping right wrist on downswing, otherwise his right wrist would have achieved a maximum cup already.

 

It gave him such an extreme angle/lag at a very late part in the swing, so basically it would be impossible for the clubhead to outrace his hands until well after impact.. it also automated the bowing in his left wrist. You can see in his grip and address position that his right wrist is extremely straight or bowed, or as homer kelly wrote in TGM a "strong single action" type of positon of the right hand, so that the range of motion in the right wrist was at its fullest potential. As he does his waggle it seems the only thing hes concerned about is accentuating a cupping in his right wrist, basically automating it for later in the swing.

 

 

just My opinion

 

its clear to me he did it in this video: especially in the shorter swings wearing a white shirt. everyone please keep in mind the video is slowed down a bit.

 

RJC59,

 

I think you are spot on. My question is was the 2nd part a deliberate action or a reaction to motion created by the backswing or transition? Perhaps, generated by the proper pivot?

 

MH

[Squish]

hogans secret imo:

 

he gave us the first part... the cupping of the left wrist..

 

 

2nd part was cupping of right wrist on downswing...

 

had to cup left on way back in order to be able to have the luxury of cupping right wrist on downswing, otherwise his right wrist would have achieved a maximum cup already.

 

It gave him such an extreme angle/lag at a very late part in the swing, so basically it would be impossible for the clubhead to outrace his hands until well after impact.. it also automated the bowing in his left wrist. You can see in his grip and address position that his right wrist is extremely straight or bowed, or as homer kelly wrote in TGM a "strong single action" type of positon of the right hand, so that the range of motion in the right wrist was at its fullest potential. As he does his waggle it seems the only thing hes concerned about is accentuating a cupping in his right wrist, basically automating it for later in the swing.

 

 

just My opinion

 

its clear to me he did it in this video: especially in the shorter swings wearing a white shirt. everyone please keep in mind the video is slowed down a bit.

 

RJC59,

 

I think you are spot on. My question is was the 2nd part a deliberate action or a reaction to motion created by the backswing or transition? Perhaps, generated by the proper pivot?

 

MH

 

 

Deliberate action.

 

Hogan states in five lessons, "supinate through impact".

 

That supination is a CCW rotation of the forearm.

 

The cupping (dorsal flexion) of the right in the downswing, puts the left in palmar flexion.

 

Opposite of how He went back.

[Tigersworld]

hogans secret imo:

 

he gave us the first part... the cupping of the left wrist..

 

 

2nd part was cupping of right wrist on downswing...

 

had to cup left on way back in order to be able to have the luxury of cupping right wrist on downswing, otherwise his right wrist would have achieved a maximum cup already.

 

It gave him such an extreme angle/lag at a very late part in the swing, so basically it would be impossible for the clubhead to outrace his hands until well after impact.. it also automated the bowing in his left wrist. You can see in his grip and address position that his right wrist is extremely straight or bowed, or as homer kelly wrote in TGM a "strong single action" type of positon of the right hand, so that the range of motion in the right wrist was at its fullest potential. As he does his waggle it seems the only thing hes concerned about is accentuating a cupping in his right wrist, basically automating it for later in the swing.

 

 

just My opinion

 

its clear to me he did it in this video: especially in the shorter swings wearing a white shirt. everyone please keep in mind the video is slowed down a bit.

 

 

 

The Mexico video ahhhh still my favorite one and the best explanation RJC59.

 

JuNiOR

[NINEBALL]

RJC59,

 

I think you are spot on. My question is was the 2nd part a deliberate action or a reaction to motion created by the backswing or transition? Perhaps, generated by the proper pivot?

 

MH

 

 

Deliberate action.

 

Hogan states in five lessons, "supinate through impact".

 

That supination is a CCW rotation of the forearm.

 

The cupping (dorsal flexion) of the right in the downswing, puts the left in palmar flexion.

 

Opposite of how He went back.

 

 

Sevam1 gives a wonderful description of this in his book - tripping the shaft

[psd]

Nice to see some civility come to this thread. for those interested, I found the article that refers to Ben Hogan at Olympic Club in 1955 re: which foot slipped. Enjoy:

 

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...78646/index.htm

 

This article would carry more weight if it was a report on the '55 tournament, not a preview of Olympic before the '66 US open.

 

Yes, I agree. Someone earlier (Tilt or 8-iron perhaps?) claimed this as "evidence" that the foot that slipped was the left. I merely posted the article so people could read for themselves. As you see, other "evidence" supports the right foot slipping.

 

A few questions for the participants here:

 

Tiltswing:

1. Early in this thread you appeared very pre-occupied with the position of Ben Hogan's head, particularly as it moved back in the downswing. Why? Do you believe this was a conscious movement?

 

All:

1. How could Mr. Hogan, literally months removed from a major accident, utilize a left side so prominently when it was the side that absorbed the brunt of the damage? How could he post and turn on damaged, painful body parts without utilizing the power stored in his right side?

[Squish]

All:

1. How could Mr. Hogan, literally months removed from a major accident, utilize a left side so prominently when it was the side that absorbed the brunt of the damage? How could he post and turn on damaged, painful body parts without utilizing the power stored in his right side?

fcavallo:

1. Kid Rock as a reference? ...and your wear Crocs? :man_in_love: Just having some fun with you!

 

 

Because you post left, then turn around the left, not on atop the left.

The body is behind the ball till post impact, then the weight rests, finishes upon the left.

Untill after the ball is struck, the weight of the upper body never shifts, the lower center of gravity does,

Using the legs.

[downtoscratch]

psd,

You who expressed pleasure in the restored civility are NOW throwing gasoline on the fire. Ask that question in a PM and leave this thread as you found it. The second question is a good one but it too will only serve to fan the fires in a contentious manner if recent history serves as any example of how diverse opinions are conveyed. Please consider the EDIT option and take the this one vs. that one question down. dts

[downtoscratch]

hogans secret imo:

 

he gave us the first part... the cupping of the left wrist..

 

 

2nd part was cupping of right wrist on downswing...

 

had to cup left on way back in order to be able to have the luxury of cupping right wrist on downswing, otherwise his right wrist would have achieved a maximum cup already.

 

It gave him such an extreme angle/lag at a very late part in the swing, so basically it would be impossible for the clubhead to outrace his hands until well after impact.. it also automated the bowing in his left wrist.

 

 

just My opinion

 

its clear as day he did it in this video: especially in the shorter swings wearing a white shirt. everyone please keep in mind the video is slowed down a bit.

 

By far my favorite Hogan video. RJC59

 

Here's a bit of an original perspective extracted from an article by Kel Miyahira that addresses your point in regard to the right wrist. I love the "traffic cop" analogy.

 

His (Tiger's) right palm twists outwards as he starts the downswing. The motion is as if you are directing traffic to stop coming from your right side. There is a little straightening of the right arm along with the palm rotating to face away from you. This is the little secret that no one says much about. Yet it happens in most good golf swings.

 

FULL TEXT below.......... dts

 

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/heal...r-clubface.html

[psd]

psd,

You who expressed pleasure in the restored civility are NOW throwing gasoline on the fire. Ask that question in a PM and leave this thread as you found it. The second question is a good one but it too will only serve to fan the fires in a contentious manner if recent history serves as any example of how diverse opinions are conveyed. Please consider the EDIT option and take the this one vs. that one question down. dts

 

 

Done. It wasn't my intent to ruffle any feathers and didn't see it as inflammatory, but if others do, then I respect that and stand corrected.

[Swoosh-Thud]

Squish. fo shizzle

 

We don't make a turn with the body perp. to the ground. There is a rearward tilt in all swings regardless of the type. Look at the base of the center of rotation (sacrum) and the spine lines up over/aimed at (whatever you want to say) the left pivot point, in the follow through mighty mo takes everything over the heel.

 

Getting to the pivot point and posting up allows you to go after the ball with the right....ie:

 

1. The whole left side in essence has cleared

2. This negates the need for a slowing the core rotation as in a DTL release

 

 

 

PS That's how I roll, Dude, been 'round the block a coupla-three times, could make a bunch of "entertaining" funny comments, but I'd get suspended :russian_roulette:

[creativegolfer]

hogans secret imo:

 

he gave us the first part... the cupping of the left wrist..

 

 

2nd part was cupping of right wrist on downswing...

 

had to cup left on way back in order to be able to have the luxury of cupping right wrist on downswing, otherwise his right wrist would have achieved a maximum cup already.

 

It gave him such an extreme angle/lag at a very late part in the swing, so basically it would be impossible for the clubhead to outrace his hands until well after impact.. it also automated the bowing in his left wrist.

 

 

just My opinion

 

its clear as day he did it in this video: especially in the shorter swings wearing a white shirt. everyone please keep in mind the video is slowed down a bit.

 

By far my favorite Hogan video. RJC59

 

Here's a bit of an original perspective extracted from an article by Kel Miyahira that addresses your point in regard to the right wrist. I love the "traffic cop" analogy.

 

His (Tiger's) right palm twists outwards as he starts the downswing. The motion is as if you are directing traffic to stop coming from your right side. There is a little straightening of the right arm along with the palm rotating to face away from you. This is the little secret that no one says much about. Yet it happens in most good golf swings.

 

FULL TEXT below.......... dts

 

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/heal...r-clubface.html

 

 

DTS, thank you for that post. Miyahira's article has been a real eye opener for me. It appears to me that a player could perform all the actions that RJ described and still approach the ball with an open clubface if the right hand doesn't give that little push during transition that makes the palm feel like it is rotating counter clockwise. So, basically the clubface is already closed (to some degree) early in the downswing and the rest of the squaring can be done with the pivot and holding the lag (reminds me of the shut face drill).

 

 

Right hand more on top of the shaft with a closed clubface

[Squish]

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------weight over left

[bentshaft]

Squish/Sevam/Anyone who might know,

 

I employed "the move" (tib/fib clockwise) and was killing it. Nice boring trajectory that started low and slowly climbed nice and high. Was hitting the back of the range with my Rescue 2 Hybrid. Every now and then I hit some NASTY hooks, though. I went to the weakest grip possible and still hooked it. I wonder....., could I be hooking from STOPPING my hip rotation? I had a nice draw when I pushed off my right foot, then PULLED my left hip BACK. When I hooked, I felt like I didn't "finish" w/ hips. Could I be on to something?

[Squish]

Squish/Sevam/Anyone who might know,

 

I employed "the move" (tib/fib clockwise) and was killing it. Nice boring trajectory that started low and slowly climbed nice and high. Was hitting the back of the range with my Rescue 2 Hybrid. Every now and then I hit some NASTY hooks, though. I went to the weakest grip possible and still hooked it. I wonder....., could I be hooking from STOPPING my hip rotation? I had a nice draw when I pushed off my right foot, then PULLED my left hip BACK. When I hooked, I felt like I didn't "finish" w/ hips. Could I be on to something?

 

 

YES!

 

If you stop the momemtum of the Hip Turn, the left upper arm disconnects and you Flip.

Keep the left knee flexed as you clear the hip. Don't snap it back.

When it straights the hips stop turning.

 

If you continue the turn with a hyper extended knee, you can over time stress crack the tibia.

That is a very common golf injury. Some just play with the pain in the shin.The fibula is made to rotate around the tibia, let it happen.

A proper move is to let left foot turn and reseat more open at the finish.

[Tigersworld]

I'm already anxious to watch the PGA this year and see who have made some changes in there swing over last two months from last years swing should be interesting. Educated eyes watching :beruo:

 

JuNiOR

[psd]

PS That's how I roll, Dude, been 'round the block a coupla-three times, could make a bunch of "entertaining" funny comments, but I'd get suspended :russian_roulette:

 

All in fun. I enjoy your perspective. No blood, no foul.