Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[StewartBannatyne]

Damn Stew....I like your style. And I don't think I have disagreed with a single thing you've said. Good posts.

I've been VERY lucky to work with VERY good teachers, and I've always been open to learning as much as I can!

 

Thanks for the compliments!

Stew

[Dariusz J.]

I really enjoyed reading your posts, Stewart. You said a lot wise things, IMO, especially about the cupped wrist which are in accordance with the conclusion of a special thread that was devoted to this phenomenon.

 

There are some really slight differences in my view of Mr.Hogan's swing comparing to yours, however, I am nowadays so deep in the subject of automating the motion that I stopped to analyze his swing just for pleasure but rather took it as a main model to confirm or negate my biokinetic theories. Therefore, I'd rather prefer to remain silent since I simply may be not objective.

 

Cheers

[hackdog]

I know it seems strange, but the clubshaft actually rotates around the sweetspot of the clubhead. If you don't believe me, hold a club vertically as light as you can over a floor that has some markings in it so that the sweetspot is over a mark. As you rotate the club about its axis, the sweetspot will stay over the mark and the shaft will rotate around it. For some people this helps them to know and understand this. It is also part of the reason that in general a golf club will try and square itself up in a swing all by itself. If you are trying to manipulate the clubface around the shaft, then knowing this and learning how to use it should improve your ballstriking.

[HoganAfficianado]

"I think it is a misconception that when the clubface is pointing towards the sky that it is closed... It is virtually impossible to literally close down the clubface on the backswing"

RJC why do you think is a misconception? I can show you a bunch of players that close the clubface during the backswing.

[Poke]

Objects in motion will remain in motion, and if they are rotating, they will rotate around an axis. In the golf club, the shaft acts as the axis of the swing. The head of a golf club is designed to rotate around the shaft, and the face will open on the way back, and close on the way down, if it is not manipulated to do anything else. The club also rotates around the hub, the body. When the club is moved unmanipulated down plane, the face will begin to close due to gravity, and the fact that the toe is lighter than the heel. If there are no excess forces acting on the shaft (arms swinging out to the right and away from the hub, closing of the face due to aggressive right hand), as the club swings closer and closer to low point, the physics of the golf club will cause the face to square.

 

I'm no physicist, but objects in motion tend to stay in motion—it a straight line. Abscent of a force, centripetal to keep an object rotating around its axis, a rotating object will flee its orbit on the tangent to the curve—or something like that.

 

It seems to me that it is supination with the left hand, a move that has to be learned ("educated hands", Homer Kelley) plus power added from the right hand is need to overcome the fleeing force in a rotary swing. As these moves become ingrained (become automatic through the subconscious) it feels like plain old physics is doing the work.

 

If I start my swing from this position and:

 

 

 

 

 

1. Continue to supinate hard through impact with my left hand

 

2. Hit the ball hard with my right hand – instinctively it feels like I'm hitting down on the ball. My right hand rotating on top of my left hand with my right arm straightening, it is not a conscious squaring, but instinctive force following the lead of the left.

 

3. Continue to rotate everything from the ground up -- my left hip exploding up and around with my arms and hands following.

 

4. Finish with my hands at or below my shoulders.

 

I can sting the ball at my target. Even if I release my right wrist fully, my arms never cross nor does the toe pass the heel. In fact, if I hold my finish then place the club back down in impact position (forward shaft lean) the face is near perfectly square.

 

The hands/arms are a unit are fighting the centrifugal force created by the cores rotation, if I let up with either hand it's like playing roulette—bloops, pulls, shanks, wipes…you name it.

[c010r4d0g01f3r]

"I think it is a misconception that when the clubface is pointing towards the sky that it is closed... It is virtually impossible to literally close down the clubface on the backswing"

RJC why do you think is a misconception? I can show you a bunch of players that close the clubface during the backswing.

 

 

Do you mean close the clubface from the perspective of IMPACT or the perspective of being SQUARE TO THE LINE on the backswing...because it seems to me that it would be pretty hard to actually rotate your arms counterclockwise on the backswing and make a good swing...just IMHO of course though...

[Poke]

You are talking about your swing and feel I hope.

 

Yes...hitting the ball from that position: no back swing.

[ryanandrew_golf]

Objects in motion will remain in motion, and if they are rotating, they will rotate around an axis. In the golf club, the shaft acts as the axis of the swing. The head of a golf club is designed to rotate around the shaft, and the face will open on the way back, and close on the way down, if it is not manipulated to do anything else. The club also rotates around the hub, the body. When the club is moved unmanipulated down plane, the face will begin to close due to gravity, and the fact that the toe is lighter than the heel. If there are no excess forces acting on the shaft (arms swinging out to the right and away from the hub, closing of the face due to aggressive right hand), as the club swings closer and closer to low point, the physics of the golf club will cause the face to square.

 

I'm no physicist, but objects in motion tend to stay in motion—it a straight line. Abscent of a force, centripetal to keep an object rotating around its axis, a rotating object will flee its orbit on the tangent to the curve—or something like that.

 

It seems to me that it is supination with the left hand, a move that has to be learned ("educated hands", Homer Kelley) plus power added from the right hand is need to overcome the fleeing force in a rotary swing. As these moves become ingrained (become automatic through the subconscious) it feels like plain old physics is doing the work.

 

If I start my swing from this position and:

 

 

 

 

 

1. Continue to supinate hard through impact with my left hand

 

2. Hit the ball hard with my right hand – instinctively it feels like I'm hitting down on the ball. My right hand rotating on top of my left hand with my right arm straightening, it is not a conscious squaring, but instinctive force following the lead of the left.

 

3. Continue to rotate everything from the ground up -- my left hip exploding up and around with my arms and hands following.

 

4. Finish with my hands at or below my shoulders.

 

I can sting the ball at my target. Even if I release my right wrist fully, my arms never cross nor does the toe pass the heel. In fact, if I hold my finish then place the club back down in impact position (forward shaft lean) the face is near perfectly square.

 

The hands/arms are a unit are fighting the centrifugal force created by the cores rotation, if I let up with either hand it's like playing roulette—bloops, pulls, shanks, wipes…you name it.

 

 

 

 

I tried this drill today it's the 9 to 3 from Slice.

 

Seem to be a point less drill and very elementary for those who want to swing like Hogan did..

 

I do not see how that drill would fit into this thread since Slice swing is nothing like Hogan's motion.

 

Might be a good drill for a high handicap player or some one new to the game, by helping them develop the timing and hand eye.

 

 

No offense, but it doesn't sound like you've researched how to do Slice's 9-3 well if you think it's pointless for a more advanced player! Done correctly it will ingrain the proper pivot and how to release the club via the pivot. In fact, I consider myself fairly advanced and it's all I've done for the last 3 weeks and I've been getting instuction (in person) from Slice for over 2 years. Practicing fundamentals never goes outta style.

 

My $0.02

[RJC59]

San Antonio golfer Matt Loving set a course record Friday with an 8-under-par 62.

 

 

ehh i dont think it matters much

[dminn23]

pgascooby...still waiting for you to post a swing of someone who more closely resembles Hogan, especially from hip high to hip high. And if like you say, "i'd loose my lunch" after viewing your swing than you might be in the category of people who could benefit immensely from any simple drill. But please, more than anything I'd just like to see some video of one of your students or someone you think more closely resembles hogan than Slices student. Just a guess but if you happened to find yourself next to Knucklefade on the range I can pretty much guarantee you would be watching hard, the kid can flat out hit it.

 

 

 

 

One more time "I do not teach golf".

 

I will try to find a video of some one.

 

One of my friends here with me plays the mini tours with one of Jeff Jones students Matt Loving.

 

He is telling me that he looks nothing like Hogan.

 

 

So because your friend told you that he looks nothing like Hogan, that means you just repeat that on a forum without really seeing it for yourself? Thats like me saying that because i rode on a plane with the Papa Johns guy, I'm now some kind of expert on how to make a good pizza.

 

Like RJC said, it doesn't really matter. But FYI, from the top of the back swing and on, the similarities are impressive. Before that there ARE some differences.

 

Oh well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[xiaoxiong]

I tried this drill today it's the 9 to 3 from Slice.

 

Seem to be a point less drill and very elementary for those who want to swing like Hogan did..

 

I do not see how that drill would fit into this thread since Slice swing is nothing like Hogan's motion.

 

Might be a good drill for a high handicap player or some one new to the game, by helping them develop the timing and hand eye.

 

 

One more time "I do not teach golf".

 

I will try to find a video of some one.

 

One of my friends here with me plays the mini tours with one of Jeff Jones students Matt Loving.

 

He is telling me that he looks nothing like Hogan.

 

If I were you, I'd start reading 9-to-3 thread and practice the drill immediately and diligently everyday....

 

Did you watch the frame-by-frame comparison between Matt and Hogan in 9-to-3 video on youtube? Or you trust your friend's eye better?

 

I guess CH III is a high handicapper since he is practicing 9-to-3 ? eh.. ROFL

 

In short, The drill's point is to instill body release --- which is the essence of Hogan swing.

oh, well, it may help someone's hand eye coordination as well :rolleyes:

 

Cheers,

[TheWoat]

Ive seen the 9to3 video, and I see the similarities. Maybe if someone pulled his pants up like an old man, wore a kangol hat, and incorporated more movement in the backswing and transition, maybe then, maybe they could look like Hogan, but who would want to?

[ryanandrew_golf]

San Antonio golfer Matt Loving set a course record Friday with an 8-under-par 62.

 

 

ehh i dont think it matters much

 

 

Easy to play with no pressure for good players.

 

I looked at tournaments he has won TSO means he's a decent player.

 

He is a streaky player though and his stats have gotten worse this 2008.

 

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/...en.324047a.html

 

http://agpts.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/agpts8/...23/tresults.htm

 

 

Stats from one event tell you he has gotten worse? Regardless, there is a lot more to playing competitive golf than swinging like Mr. Hogan (or not from your prespective).

[ryanandrew_golf]

Sorry, no spin intended! I have no idea what his stats are...I've only seen him hit balls in person once and never seen him play. But you said they were worse in '08 and I clicked on the link and saw one tourney....

[TheNatural72]

This guy looks and swings as close to Hogan as anyone I have ever seen. He told me personally he knows the REAL SECRET............here is the link

 

[Lake]

This guy looks and swings as close to Hogan as anyone I have ever seen. He told me personally he knows the REAL SECRET............here is the link

 

 

I don't know what's worse....136 folks gave that five stars or that I almost watched the whole thing :)

[breakinpar]

Please stay on topic.

[ryanandrew_golf]

Sevam has a good swing and his videos are funny. It ain't Hogan though it has a similiar "flow". The release is soooo different.

 

Oh c*&p, it's midnight and I have school in the AM! I'm out!

 

LOL, We just got Rick Rolled!!!

[TheWoat]

This guy looks and swings as close to Hogan as anyone I have ever seen. He told me personally he knows the REAL SECRET............here is the link

 

 

I don't know what's worse....136 folks gave that five stars or that I almost watched the whole thing :)

 

Whats worse is the dance moves the guy does in the beginning... CLASSIC.

[martinez]

 

Ummmm, that's pretty pure right there. Can someone link me to this guys swing in real time. I know the positions are great etc....I just want to see his motion at speed.

 

This is kind of off topic, but in College we had a guy we nicknamed scooby-dooless (shortened to scooby) cause he was totally f-ing clueless. Not implying anything, just got reminded of it and thought i'd share.

[TheWoat]

Here is the 9-3 youtube video

 

 

I think the man named Matt is in there in the beginning.

 

Gee Scoob, ya beat me to it.

[eightiron]

 

Ummmm, that's pretty pure right there. Can someone link me to this guys swing in real time. I know the positions are great etc....I just want to see his motion at speed.

 

This is kind of off topic, but in College we had a guy we nicknamed scooby-dooless (shortened to scooby) cause he was totally f-ing clueless. Not implying anything, just got reminded of it and thought i'd share.

 

ROFL..yep clueless

Hogan was a great dancer which equals light on your feet....how on earth could you have a heavy right foot and have your a** up and back with that hip slant

[eightiron]

 

Ummmm, that's pretty pure right there. Can someone link me to this guys swing in real time. I know the positions are great etc....I just want to see his motion at speed.

 

This is kind of off topic, but in College we had a guy we nicknamed scooby-dooless (shortened to scooby) cause he was totally f-ing clueless. Not implying anything, just got reminded of it and thought i'd share.

 

 

 

 

MATT LOVING

 

Hands are higher than Hogan at the top.

 

Club is not behind him as much on the DS.

 

Hold on to the angle to long through impact.

 

Some minor variations for sure Texan Golf/ Burley Golf/ Pga scooby however the bloke you think looks like Mr Hogan does not match one position /alignment/pivot motion/release so learn to draw lines and in particular learn how to track the sweetspot plane :russian_roulette:

[Ezgolfer]

This is guy has a very good motion ...

 

 

I do n't think rotary swing = Ben Hogan 's swing , quite a few similarities though .

 

He is selling rotary swing versions 1 , 2, 3 DVD's .

[Cloran]

This is guy has a very good motion ...

 

 

I do n't think rotary swing = Ben Hogan 's swing , quite a few similarities though .

 

He is selling rotary swing versions 1 , 2, 3 DVD's .

 

 

Nice swing. I'd love it if Slice' did something like this guy... pay a few bucks a month for online videos, etc... I'll just wait for the book. :rolleyes:

[redsoxall]

eightiron

What do you mean by tracking the sweet spot plane?

I've had some lessons about that.

Thanks

[xiaoxiong]

Lmao i love how this forum can have someone get banned for ranting and raving about a swing theory, only to not do anything about them coming back under a different name and saying the exact same s**t

 

 

Yeah, texan_golf=BurleyGolf . Same spelling errors, same baseless arguments.

 

Without going into details, don't worry we have it under control.

 

hmmm, interesting. You joined the forum on 1/5/09, right after DemolitionMan said he had it under control.

 

But does it ring a bell to anyone with those same spelling errors, same writing style, and same kind of arguments?? :russian_roulette:

[Lake]

Here is the 9-3 youtube video

 

 

I think the man named Matt is in there in the beginning.

 

Gee Scoob, ya beat me to it.

 

Matt looks like he is staying in his forward tilt thru impact compared to Ben...the little guy in that film has a beautiful motion.

[ryanandrew_golf]

 

Ummmm, that's pretty pure right there. Can someone link me to this guys swing in real time. I know the positions are great etc....I just want to see his motion at speed.

 

This is kind of off topic, but in College we had a guy we nicknamed scooby-dooless (shortened to scooby) cause he was totally f-ing clueless. Not implying anything, just got reminded of it and thought i'd share.

 

 

 

 

MATT LOVING

 

Hands are higher than Hogan at the top.

 

Club is not behind him as much on the DS.

 

Hold on to the angle to long through impact.

 

Some minor variations for sure Texan Golf/ Burley Golf/ Pga scooby however the bloke you think looks like Mr Hogan does not match one position /alignment/pivot motion/release so learn to draw lines and in particular learn how to track the sweetspot plane :russian_roulette:

 

 

I never said Matt look like Hogan in fact I said my friend said he did not.

 

As I am flattered that you think I am TG you are wrong and who is the other name I have not seen them on this thread.

 

I am not a teacher so my evaluation's are that my own conclusion's.

 

I would appreciate that you not talk down to me like I am beneath you.

 

We are discussing different beliefs here in Hogan's swing and I feel you are trying to belittle me.

 

Don't want to put words in someone else's mouth but I'm fairly certain he meant that the video you posted doesn't look like Hogan

[StewartBannatyne]

By no means am I calling this Mr. Hogan's "secret" but here's some food for thought.

 

I have no idea if this has been thought of or debated, but I was sitting around at work today and thinking about cause and effect in the golf swing. When Scooby posted the video of Chuck Quinton, the one glaring thing that stood out was the completely different lower body action from Mr. Hogan. CQ makes a very nice motion, but through the shot, he really straightens both legs and his release indicates that. He does swing the club fairly left, but the clubhead has begun to sling, and the CF forces have acted on it more.

 

So what does all this mean? My belief that this is caused by the upward movement and the loss of flex in the legs. Without flex in the legs, here is what happens:

 

- Raising of hands at address

- Club generally swings more down the line

- Wrists release earlier

- Right Arm Straightens

- More lateral motion and less rotation of the body

- Right Hip tends to work more "out" and pulls the right heel "out" towards the ball as well

 

These are all things that Mr. Hogan certainly would never accused of!

 

So when we are looking at the cause and effect of the swing, and what makes Mr. Hogan special, are we maybe looking at the minute things, and missing the big picture? When looking at Stack and Tilt, the players are (according to the GD article) instructed to raise up through the shot, which will lead to these five things I listed above happening.

 

Mr. Hogan returned the shaft to it's original plane, maintained the bend in the right elbow/arm, was very rotational, and released the club left better than anyone. Is this because he maintained his "squat" longer and deeper than others? When you look at players like Snead and Trevino, they also show this maintaining of the squat later into the swing as well. Other players like Tiger (with the driver), and Jack, are more inclined to raise up through the shot, and release the club more down the line.

 

Keeping the flex in the legs (or maintaining the squat) also gives the player more room (No "humping the goat" as Slice would say), to keep the club controlled by the body, and lets the CP Forces stay active much later into the swing.

 

Maybe that's what Hogan meant by "it is easy to spot, if you know where to look"... ;)

 

I think sometimes we look at the small things, and we can miss the big things.

 

Your thoughts, gentlemen!

 

Stew