Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[fats]

I seem to recall Hogan saying "until you have trajectory you have nothing"

Moefan

 

 

So what does that mean...he didn't care where it came down? Ben Hogan we're talking about here not Sam Sausage...LOL

 

In addition MOEFAN...Moe liked trajectory also...did he have to come back in the afternoon to make it go where he wanted it to go?

 

 

Hi Fats

Just something I remembered when he was talking about trajectory.

Moefan

 

Funny thing is I thought it was Jack Nicklaus that said he didn't worry too much about direction at the start of his warm-up?

 

 

That's because Jack practices the same way all the time...little PWs and then hits a bunch of different distance 8 irons until he's loose then he goes on up to longer shots.....All these great players were very very good Moefan...not choppers...LOL

[resist_hard.]

Thats some oppurtunity Fats. Not many people can say they hit golf balls next to Ben Hogan. I had no idea you was even in the same generation as hogan.. Judging through your forum posts you seem like a full of life 20year old. [No offense i assure you its a good thing]

[fats]

I'm comfortable with my original statement also.

 

[fats]

Thats some oppurtunity Fats. Not many people can say they hit golf balls next to Ben Hogan. I had no idea you was even in the same generation as hogan.. Judging through your forum posts you seem like a full of life 20year old. [No offense i assure you its a good thing]

 

 

Well...golf is a game...fun...Bolt was a very close friend who helped me once I got on the Senior Tour...we talked endlessly about Hogan...or more correctly he talked about Hogan as they were very good friends...I played mostly part time on the tour in the old days...you could do that then as qualifying was easy...make the cut and you were in the next week...no money to play for unless you were outstanding...Bolt would have impressed you as much younger if you couldn't see the old face...same with me.

 

Instruction is better now...so is the equipment...amazing...no regrerts...I had a good time, now I enjoy watching Tiger Woods.

[asmooth7]

Fair enough friend, I didn't think I was gonna change your mind. LOL...

 

No disrespect intended, the whole witch-hunt atmosphere is unsavory at times, but I understand the cause of frustration also.

 

Hit 'em good.

 

 

 

 

I'm comfortable with my original statement also.

 

[sevam1]

Thats some oppurtunity Fats. Not many people can say they hit golf balls next to Ben Hogan. I had no idea you was even in the same generation as hogan.. Judging through your forum posts you seem like a full of life 20year old. [No offense i assure you its a good thing]

 

 

Well...golf is a game...fun...Bolt was a very close friend who helped me once I got on the Senior Tour...we talked endlessly about Hogan...or more correctly he talked about Hogan as they were very good friends...I played mostly part time on the tour in the old days...you could do that then as qualifying was easy...make the cut and you were in the next week...no money to play for unless you were outstanding...Bolt would have impressed you as much younger if you couldn't see the old face...same with me.

 

Instruction is better now...so is the equipment...amazing...no regrerts...I had a good time, now I enjoy watching Tiger Woods.

 

 

fats,

 

I just want to know two things. How far could Bolt really throw a club and what did Moe tell you in Hamilton?

 

Sevam1

[scores]

Fats you should have your own thread...impressive..

[ryanandrew_golf]

Mr. Fats, since i don't know who you are do you mind telling me? If that's inappropiate I apologize!

[Ezgolfer]

What up Fats ...

Come on ...get naked ...

It 's bout time now ..

 

Jim thorpe .. no.., can't be hale ..may be Mccnulty ... No .. langers .. may be John Cook ..

[Ezgolfer]

Dfw ..

 

If getting on to the left pivot and left release was Hogan 's secret ..

Why can't rotary swing players on tour play like and have the same ball striking ability ?

[golfbulldog]

What up Fats ...

Come on ...get naked ...

It 's bout time now ..

 

Jim thorpe .. no.., can't be hale ..may be Mccnulty ... No .. langers .. may be John Cook ..

He said - first Doral.... that = 1962

 

He said 6 days...assuming he made the cut....narrows the field a bit....

 

He is still alive....what's that make....maybe 40 guys?

[Tiltswing]

What up Fats ...

Come on ...get naked ...

It 's bout time now ..

 

Jim thorpe .. no.., can't be hale ..may be Mccnulty ... No .. langers .. may be John Cook ..

 

 

Fats has only told a few people who he is, the best approach is probably not to harass him as that's how he wants it.

[sevam1]

What up Fats ...

Come on ...get naked ...

It 's bout time now ..

 

Jim thorpe .. no.., can't be hale ..may be Mccnulty ... No .. langers .. may be John Cook ..

 

 

Fats has only told a few people who he is, the best approach is probably not to harass him as that's how he wants it.

 

I think we finally found something to agree on Tiltswing.

 

I think people's anonymity should be respected. There are many contributors here at golfwrx that would probably disappear if that element of it were not a part of all of this. Nothing wrong with a little mystery.

 

Sevam1

[Ezgolfer]

Are you serious??

 

Why??

 

What is this training aid ?

[martinez]

I recognize the grip, it's the Shark.

 

edit;

The shirt, glove and white arm hair help a little too. :P

[Poke]

Texan,

 

Thanks for putting all of the bs'ing into practice.

 

Poke

[Swoosh-Thud]

Bayou city brother.

 

You're right about the butt going back. What you are trying to do is get your tailbone (the base of the spine) ie the centerpoint of your rotation over your left pivot point. Once your there just let er go.

 

I think once your center of rotation is over the pivot point, when you post up the left side you've now turned the rotational swing into a swing door ie right sided swing.

 

Even though there is rotation (ie left side going back while the right goes targetward) posting up the left allows you to swing as hard as you want with the right w/out any fear of going left.

 

Why? You can't.

 

Since the body does not stall and continuously rotates, and the butt of the club goes left, the core rotation squares the club: it is impossible for the toe to pass the heel w/out a stall.

[biscuity]

Hogan held the face open through impact and released his body. The club it's self did not turn over till just before it came out under the left shoulder, this is why his right shoulder went so far out over the ball and made the club come out low.

 

 

 

 

There's a subtle yet crucial difference between what you are saying and what Hogan said. Hogan didn't hold the club face open, he did the opposite, he tried as hard as he could to close it. His set-up prevented him from closing it too far and to fast, no matter how hard he tried.

 

His Secret was an automatic move that gave him consistency and power. It eliminated timing issues, just open the face as far as possible, then close it as hard as possible. It gave him the green light to go at the ball as hard as he wanted. Imagine opening a door as far as it will go, then slamming it shut as hard as you can. That's easier and more consistent than trying to open the door partially, then trying to close it at just the right speed.

 

From the Foreward of 5 Lessons:

 

"It (the Secret) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."

[Swoosh-Thud]

I know nothing about the S&T other than what 8 & Tilt have to say. But they do know there stuff.

 

Look at Hogan's axis once it goes from address to the pivot point.

 

Just turn as fast as you want and as hard as you want with the right side. Impossible to go left w/out stalling.

 

 

[Swoosh-Thud]

There's a subtle yet crucial difference between what you are saying and what Hogan said. Hogan didn't hold the club face open, he did the opposite, he tried as hard as he could to close it.

 

Oh I agree, just emphasizing the core squared the clubface, not the hands. Once he got to his pivot point he could go after it as hard as he wanted and the toe would never catch the face with a left release.

[biscuity]

Hogan held the face open through impact and released his body. The club it's self did not turn over till just before it came out under the left shoulder, this is why his right shoulder went so far out over the ball and made the club come out low.

 

 

 

 

There's a subtle yet crucial difference between what you are saying and what Hogan said. Hogan didn't hold the club face open, he did the opposite, he tried as hard as he could to close it. His set-up prevented him from closing it too far and to fast, no matter how hard he tried.

 

His Secret was an automatic move that gave him consistency and power. It eliminated timing issues, just open the face as far as possible, then close it as hard as possible. It gave him the green light to go at the ball as hard as he wanted. Imagine opening a door as far as it will go, then slamming it shut as hard as you can. That's easier and more consistent than trying to open the door partially, then trying to close it at just the right speed.

 

From the Foreward of 5 Lessons:

 

"It (the Secret) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."

 

 

 

Hogan released his body hard not the club, this is why he shaved the heel's of his irons so they would lay open at address and if he happen to close the face a little this would hopefully help his chances of still catching it square. 5 lessons is like the bible there are so many interpretation's who's to say who is right of all the scholars. I am not saying I am right, but I know others who were very close to Hogan and that played with Hogan that said he tried to release the club after impact. This is why you see the hands and the club disappear but you continue to see the right should cover out over the ball.

 

 

You're getting stuck, I'm not saying that a full and hard release can only happen at impact.

[ryanandrew_golf]

Mr. Fats, I'm sorry I asked....please forgive me for being so stupid.

[Kumabjorn]

I've practiced next to him [ben Hogan] and even on game day he worked on shots and trajectory. Never in my life have I heard he didn't include accuracy along with everytyhing he worked on...he would deem it a failure otherwise.

 

 

That is without question the coolest posting I've eve read.

If there wasn't an ocean between us I would just give you one big hug and I don't care how gay that would seem.

 

You must have soooo many stories to tell. Wish you would share.

[Outpost31]

I've practiced next to him [ben Hogan] and even on game day he worked on shots and trajectory. Never in my life have I heard he didn't include accuracy along with everytyhing he worked on...he would deem it a failure otherwise.

 

 

That is without question the coolest posting I've eve read.

If there wasn't an ocean between us I would just give you one big hug and I don't care how gay that would seem.

 

You must have soooo many stories to tell. Wish you would share.

 

 

+1

 

Mr. Fats is a Great Guy!!!

 

~Urkslaven~

[powerfade66]

Thanks Moefan...poor guy, if he added any more spikes with the heavy steel in those days his shoes could be used as divers weighted boots. LOL

 

this reminds me ... i heard of a guy getting suspended from his club for jumping off the lockers onto another guy's head. with his spikes on no less!!! ... i'm not suggesting hogan was a violent man but it would perhaps be as plausible as some of the ideas put forward recently! afterall, he was a rather gruff man and prone to anger when approached in his own spaces ...

[martinez]

Martinez, I really like your stuff about the hands, shoulder, heart stuff..not sure that I get the picture 100% - but it seems to have an interesting flavour - could you expand please - any slow mo pitching image which shows this?

 

Sorry it took so long, been meaning to post these..........

 

The Jim McClean DVD makes reference to Hogan throwing a ball at the target. I think he threw it at the ball. He intentionally walked the batter every time by opening the left foot, delaying the release. Obviously this is not exact, merely an image I found set me on a path that I'm still traveling 9 months later, and I have barely taken a turn in that whole time.

[downtoscratch]

martinez,

Add this batter image to your pitcher's images. I think you will appreciate the insights

added to the image..... dts

 

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/heal...transition.html

[Tigersworld]

martinez,

Add this batter image to your pitcher's images. I think you will appreciate the insights

added to the image..... dts

 

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/heal...transition.html

 

 

Really nice DTS!!!

 

JuNiOR

[NINEBALL]

Gents

 

You Pharasies of the PGA with your vast knowledge have debunked the move, and I must agree it is not the secret, but I believe part of it.

Great job!

 

But here is my take. I believe Ben Hogan had a secret, and it did involve rotation of the feet, more so the left foot and leg.

 

Now before you crucify my Idea please Try it.

Without a club in your hands, you will still get the idea as I did when I discovered it.

 

 

I stated on the Monster thread at the beginning, that when I had my 3 magic scratch rounds, (as a +15 capper) my only thought was inverting the left foot.

Rotating the tibia around the fibias clockwise, as I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

Every shot was a long narrow fade, driver through wedge.

 

I learned this from a Bobby Jones sybervision vcr tape my lovely wife purchased perusing through a dollar store, the night before.

As we were on vacation at the beach.

I will post the tiny section where Jones states this.

 

As I made this queeer little movement with the the left foot. I thought of Hogan stating "The great players play from the ground up".

I practiced the foot work in front of the mirror at the condo, woke up and went to the course range with an eight iron, it worked perfectly.

Including the right foot drag.

I powered my entire motion around that inverting left foot. I muffed only one shot off the tee with a 2 Iron on a bet.

I had trouble in the sand The only time I went in, missing the green on a drive. I two putted the whole time.

 

I distinctly remember my release.

It was clockwise, then right over left.

 

Yes you can clockwise invert the left foot and swing like a pro.

 

These were remarkable rounds witnessed by locals.

 

That was the secret for me.

My scores and ball flight proved it.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

PS I am wearing a Flack Jacket.

 

Please comment on this.

 

 

Thank you Squish,

 

Took me 2 solid months on this site to finally get this.

 

I invert left on backswing. Inversion creates tremendous leverage allowing me to literally pull my entire body through the shot from the ball of my left foot. I believe the ball of the left foot is what the other end of Hogan's elastic strap was tied to. Left foot is the only constant as right foot position varies.

 

I've always been told that a pull is better than a push when it comes to power. My only right side function now is the right buttock pushing leftward immediately following the beginning of the pull forward - and my right hand hitting as hard as I can.

 

This is a new move for me, but I'm feeling amazing leverage. As a check, my navel moves targetward faster than it ever has. I can't move my navel as fast and as consistent doing it with the right. Pulling with the left gives me the right amount of forward and around every time (so far). I don't even have to focus on pushing the left knee outward in transition - pulling force does that for me and also creates a "snap" to the top as the left knee wants to straighten.

 

This makes great sense to me now hearing that Hogan's left foot slipped - certainly would create a pull hook. I think this is what was happening also as they say 5 Lessons created a world of "hip spinners". Their elastic band wasn't "attached" to anything.

 

Thanks

[downtoscratch]

From Knucklefade's thread..... Interesting Article on how Sadlowski creates speed... Follows the most recent thoughts here. dts

 

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/heal...ger-drives.html