Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[Squish]

Gents

 

You Pharasies of the PGA with your vast knowledge have debunked the move, and I must agree it is not the secret, but I believe part of it.

Great job!

 

But here is my take. I believe Ben Hogan had a secret, and it did involve rotation of the feet, more so the left foot and leg.

 

Now before you crucify my Idea please Try it.

Without a club in your hands, you will still get the idea as I did when I discovered it.

 

 

I stated on the Monster thread at the beginning, that when I had my 3 magic scratch rounds, (as a +15 capper) my only thought was inverting the left foot.

Rotating the tibia around the fibias clockwise, as I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

Every shot was a long narrow fade, driver through wedge.

 

I learned this from a Bobby Jones sybervision vcr tape my lovely wife purchased perusing through a dollar store, the night before.

As we were on vacation at the beach.

I will post the tiny section where Jones states this.

 

As I made this queeer little movement with the the left foot. I thought of Hogan stating "The great players play from the ground up".

I practiced the foot work in front of the mirror at the condo, woke up and went to the course range with an eight iron, it worked perfectly.

Including the right foot drag.

I powered my entire motion around that inverting left foot. I muffed only one shot off the tee with a 2 Iron on a bet.

I had trouble in the sand The only time I went in, missing the green on a drive. I two putted the whole time.

 

I distinctly remember my release.

It was clockwise, then right over left.

 

Yes you can clockwise invert the left foot and swing like a pro.

 

These were remarkable rounds witnessed by locals.

 

That was the secret for me.

My scores and ball flight proved it.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

PS I am wearing a Flack Jacket.

 

Please comment on this.

[Squish]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

[KevCarter]

Gents

 

You Pharasies of the PGA with you vast knowledge have debunked the move, and I must agree it is not the secret, but I believe part of it.

Great job!

 

...

 

PS I am wearing a Flack Jacket.

 

Please comment on this.

 

You Pharasies of the PGA

 

Squish,

 

 

Where did that come from?

 

:lol:

 

Kevin

[eightiron]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

[Squish]

Gents

 

You Pharasies of the PGA with you vast knowledge have debunked the move, and I must agree it is not the secret, but I believe part of it.

Great job!

 

...

 

PS I am wearing a Flack Jacket.

 

Please comment on this.

 

You Pharasies of the PGA

 

Squish,

 

 

Where did that come from?

 

:lol:

 

Kevin

 

 

I guess I didn't come off like I wanted it to.

No, I appriciate all of you opinions, and you guys do this for a living.

I respect that, and you gents did a Great Job taking it apart.

I however am not PGA certified, and always fear the wrath of traditional teaching methods.

 

I am with ya, not again ya. I like the truth.

 

No harm intended Sir.

[KevCarter]

Gents

 

You Pharasies of the PGA with you vast knowledge have debunked the move, and I must agree it is not the secret, but I believe part of it.

Great job!

 

...

 

PS I am wearing a Flack Jacket.

 

Please comment on this.

 

You Pharasies of the PGA

 

Squish,

 

 

Where did that come from?

 

:lol:

 

Kevin

 

 

I guess I didn't come off like I wanted to to.

No, I appriciate all of you opinions, and you guys do this for a living.

I respect that, and you gents did a Great Job taking it apart.

I however am not PGA certified, and always fear the wrath of traditional teaching methods.

 

I am with ya, not again ya. I like the truth.

 

No harm intended Sir.

 

No harm taken Squish, it's just that for the most part, the PGA guys don't have a dog in this fight. I think Mike has done great work for the same reasons as you.

 

Kevin

[Swoosh-Thud]

Hogan held the face open through impact and released his body. The club it's self did not turn over till just before it came out under the left shoulder, this is why his right shoulder went so far out over the ball and made the club come out low.

 

 

 

[Squish]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

eight

 

Did you read my post?

 

I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

[fats]

Hogan held the face open through impact and released his body. The club it's self did not turn over till just before it came out under the left shoulder, this is why his right shoulder went so far out over the ball and made the club come out low.

 

 

 

 

 

Finally we are making progress...Thanks guys.

Love his left hip here...

[fats]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

 

 

LOL..the had the extra spike on the wrong foot...LOL

[Squish]

sevam is the man!

 

I use the move as I believe Hogan did.

I use the right eversion to evert the hip.

 

I use the left inversion to control. It's a two sided game.

[Tiltswing]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

eight

 

Did you read my post?

 

I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

Squish,

 

The left knee rotates to the top as a result of the hip turn:

 

 

 

The left knee is flexed inward at the top as a result of turn, you don't need to turn the foot to do this. On the downswing the left knee flexs outward and the position of the foot has changed. Shear forces, like Sevam talks about, are always created in the swing as a result of rotation (specifically knee rotation). I was experimenting with "pre-torquing" my right foot yesterday, and realized the only way to do it was rotate my knee clockwise to some degree at address. Makes no sense to do that, because the knees rotate on the backswing anyway, and create the shear forces in a clockwise direction as a result of the position of the right foot and clockwise pivot. Then on the downswing, weight goes left+the rotation of the left knee creates anticlockwise shear forces. This creates torque forces which move inward and speed the rotation of the hips. This has all been published by an engineer, it's nothing new. The feet create shear forces as a result of the proper pivot, there is no need to do all this pre-setting/torquing/turning etc. with the feet. Look it up on TPI.

[Squish]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

eight

 

Did you read my post?

 

I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

Squish,

 

The left knee rotates to the top as a result of the hip turn:

 

 

 

The left knee is flexed inward at the top as a result of turn, you don't need to turn the foot to do this. On the downswing the left knee flexs outward and the position of the foot has changed. Shear forces, like Sevam talks about, are always created in the swing as a result of rotation (specifically knee rotation). I was experimenting with "pre-torquing" my right foot yesterday, and realized the only way to do it was rotate my knee clockwise to some degree at address. Makes no sense to do that, because the knees rotate on the backswing anyway, and create the shear forces in a clockwise direction as a result of the position of the right foot and clockwise pivot. Then on the downswing, weight goes left+the rotation of the left knee creates anticlockwise shear forces. This creates torque forces which move inward and speed the rotation of the hips. This has all been published by an engineer, it's nothing new. The feet create shear forces as a result of the proper pivot, there is no need to do all this pre-setting/torquing/turning etc. with the feet.

 

Of course its nothing new.

 

This happened to me in 1996.

"my only thought was inverting the left foot.

Rotating the tibia around the fibias clockwise, as I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot".

 

It made sense to me, it worked.

Try it Sir, let me know what you think.

Clockwise rotate the left foot, then backshift into the braced left knee then release it.

 

Thanks for responding.

[moefan]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

 

 

LOL..the had the extra spike on the wrong foot...LOL

 

Hogan had an extra spike on both shoes

 

Moefan

[Tiltswing]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

eight

 

Did you read my post?

 

I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

Squish,

 

The left knee rotates to the top as a result of the hip turn:

 

 

 

The left knee is flexed inward at the top as a result of turn, you don't need to turn the foot to do this. On the downswing the left knee flexs outward and the position of the foot has changed. Shear forces, like Sevam talks about, are always created in the swing as a result of rotation (specifically knee rotation). I was experimenting with "pre-torquing" my right foot yesterday, and realized the only way to do it was rotate my knee clockwise to some degree at address. Makes no sense to do that, because the knees rotate on the backswing anyway, and create the shear forces in a clockwise direction as a result of the position of the right foot and clockwise pivot. Then on the downswing, weight goes left+the rotation of the left knee creates anticlockwise shear forces. This creates torque forces which move inward and speed the rotation of the hips. This has all been published by an engineer, it's nothing new. The feet create shear forces as a result of the proper pivot, there is no need to do all this pre-setting/torquing/turning etc. with the feet.

 

Of course its nothing new.

 

This happened to me in 1996.

"my only thought was inverting the left foot.

Rotating the tibia around the fibias clockwise, as I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot".

 

It made sense to me, it worked.

Try it Sir, let me know what you think.

Clockwise rotate the left foot, then backshift into the braced left knee then release it.

 

Thanks for responding.

 

I have tried it, doesn't do anything. During the backswing, the left knee rotates clockwise, which creates the clockwise shear forces of the left foot. The left knee also flexes as a result of the pivot. Any extra thought on the foot etc. is just more information=more confusion. Why bother? The pivot takes care of it.

[fats]

Thanks Moefan...poor guy, if he added any more spikes with the heavy steel in those days his shoes could be used as divers weighted boots. LOL

[sevam1]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

eight

 

Did you read my post?

 

I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

Squish,

 

The left knee rotates to the top as a result of the hip turn:

 

 

 

The left knee is flexed inward at the top as a result of turn, you don't need to turn the foot to do this. On the downswing the left knee flexs outward and the position of the foot has changed. Shear forces, like Sevam talks about, are always created in the swing as a result of rotation (specifically knee rotation). I was experimenting with "pre-torquing" my right foot yesterday, and realized the only way to do it was rotate my knee clockwise to some degree at address. Makes no sense to do that, because the knees rotate on the backswing anyway, and create the shear forces in a clockwise direction as a result of the position of the right foot and clockwise pivot. Then on the downswing, weight goes left+the rotation of the left knee creates anticlockwise shear forces. This creates torque forces which move inward and speed the rotation of the hips. This has all been published by an engineer, it's nothing new. The feet create shear forces as a result of the proper pivot, there is no need to do all this pre-setting/torquing/turning etc. with the feet. Look it up on TPI.

 

 

 

Tiltswing,

 

That's correct and in fact it is exactly what I have been saying. Because something has been published by an engineer and mentioned in passing does not, however, mean that it is being properly integrated into teaching methods. For the most part it is not. It is assumed that the legs will work a certain way, but I think you will agree that most golfer do not manage their connection with the ground particularly well. That is what I have been trying to draw attention to.

 

People, generally do not move properly into the right leg especially in terms of rotational aspect and the creation of resitance and shear forces. The pretorque is nothing more than setting up at address the feeling that should build on a proper backswing. It is a way to feel what it means to move down and move rotationally into the right leg on the backswing. It is just a guarantee built in to address for people who have no idea of how to move into the right leg in the correct manner. This is exactly what I have said about the pretorque:

 

"The Pretorque had got me to feel for the first time the pressure that great ballstrikers build into the right side on the backswing. Most do it naturally as part of a finely managed backswing."

 

Building that feeling is early is sort of like insurance to make sure it happens, but more importantly it is an instructional device. TPI does in fact confirm the presence of these forces. These forces and their use and the use and awareness of the ground and managing your relationship with the ground has been what I have been on about in this whole exercise. Ben Hogan I believe, build significantly greater than average shear forces. You will be surpirsed until you experiment with and test the limits of how much this pressure can be built. If you toy with it you will be amazed.

 

Modern instruction in general has very little to say about how to use the ground. I think that that should change and I think that it is. No one in the history of golf used the ground better than Ben Hogan. Everything else about the mechanics of his swing flows from that.

 

Sevam1

[Squish]

Tilt

 

"I have tried it, doesn't do anything"

 

How about stability of the upper, so your swing circle remains true.

 

"Any extra thought on the foot etc. is just more information=more confusion. Why bother?"

 

That is the only thought.

It drives the entire swing.

[Tiltswing]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

eight

 

Did you read my post?

 

I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

Squish,

 

The left knee rotates to the top as a result of the hip turn:

 

 

 

The left knee is flexed inward at the top as a result of turn, you don't need to turn the foot to do this. On the downswing the left knee flexs outward and the position of the foot has changed. Shear forces, like Sevam talks about, are always created in the swing as a result of rotation (specifically knee rotation). I was experimenting with "pre-torquing" my right foot yesterday, and realized the only way to do it was rotate my knee clockwise to some degree at address. Makes no sense to do that, because the knees rotate on the backswing anyway, and create the shear forces in a clockwise direction as a result of the position of the right foot and clockwise pivot. Then on the downswing, weight goes left+the rotation of the left knee creates anticlockwise shear forces. This creates torque forces which move inward and speed the rotation of the hips. This has all been published by an engineer, it's nothing new. The feet create shear forces as a result of the proper pivot, there is no need to do all this pre-setting/torquing/turning etc. with the feet. Look it up on TPI.

 

 

 

Tiltswing,

 

That's correct and in fact it is exactly what I have been saying. Because something has been published by an engineer and mentioned in passing does not, however, mean that it is being properly integrated into teaching methods. For the most part it is not. It is assumed that the legs will work a certain way, but I think you will agree that most golfer do not manage their connection with the ground particularly well. That is what I have been trying to draw attention to.

 

People, generally do not move properly into the right leg especially in terms of rotational aspect and the creation of resitance and shear forces. The pretorque is nothing more than setting up at address the feeling that should build on a proper backswing. It is a way to feel what it mean to move down and mover rotationally into the right leg on the backswing. It is just a guarantee built in to address for people who have no idea of how to move into the right leg in the correct manner. This is exactly what I have said about the pretorque:

 

"The Pretorque had got me to feel for the first time the pressure that great ballstrikers build into the right side on the backswing. Most do it naturally as part of a finely managed backswing."

 

Building that feeling is early is sort of like insurance to make sure it happens, but more importantly it is an instructional device. TPI does in fact confirm the presence of these forces. These forces and their use and the use and awareness of the ground and managing your relationship with the ground has been what I have been on about in this whole exercise. Ben Hogan I believe, build significantly greater than average shear forces. You will be surpirsed until you experiment with and test the limits of how much this pressure can be built. If you toy with it you will be amazed.

 

Modern instruction in general has very little to say about how to use the ground. I think that that should change and I think that it is. No one in the history of golf used the ground better than Ben Hogan. Everything else about the mechanics of his swing flows from that.

 

Sevam1

 

 

I'd think Hogan did create greater shear forces as a result of his pivot. But you've been saying the secret of Hogan's swing was him pre-setting them at address, and I think that's false because Hogan clearly, always turned correctly into the right side:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8

 

Thus he always created shear forces, and this can be seen with any good (or even mediorcre) ball striker. Maybe Hogan did it better (creating shear forces that is), but there are so many, more important things that made Hogan unique, not the amout of shear forces he generated. He wouldn't need to preset anything because his pivot was great. Also, with regards to the idea that his secret was about keeping more pressure on his right foot, look at this picture (it is from the 1967 Masters):

 

 

You can pause pre-secret Hogan in the video I put here at the same spot. I think post-secret Hogan's foot is further off the ground, so the idea of getting more pressure on the right foot as being his secret doesn't make sense either. He wanted weight LEFT.

[sevam1]

Tilt

 

"I have tried it, doesn't do anything"

 

How about stability of the upper, so your swing circle remains true.

 

"Any extra thought on the foot etc. is just more information=more confusion. Why bother?"

 

That is the only thought.

It drives the entire swing.

 

That's right Squish.

 

"You can make a good swing from the waist up. You can make a good swing from the knees up. But you feel a great golfswing in your feet."

 

Sevam1

[Tiltswing]

Tilt

 

"I have tried it, doesn't do anything"

 

How about stability of the upper, so your swing circle remains true.

 

"Any extra thought on the foot etc. is just more information=more confusion. Why bother?"

 

That is the only thought.

It drives the entire swing.

 

 

I can do the same thing just by turning. I use a more centered pivot, so my swing circle remains true by the centered rotation of my shoulders. I feel perfectly balanced throughout the swing, both with and without the left foot action. If a golfer has a sound pivot, his upper body will be stable. You're just doing the same thing in a different way.

[Squish]

Tilt

 

"I have tried it, doesn't do anything"

 

How about stability of the upper, so your swing circle remains true.

 

"Any extra thought on the foot etc. is just more information=more confusion. Why bother?"

 

That is the only thought.

It drives the entire swing.

 

That's right Squish.

 

"You can make a good swing from the waist up. You can make a good swing from the knees up. But you feel a great golfswing in your feet."

 

Sevam1

 

You can pull it through more accuratly using rotational forces, than pushing the body.

[sevam1]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

eight

 

Did you read my post?

 

I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

Squish,

 

The left knee rotates to the top as a result of the hip turn:

 

 

 

The left knee is flexed inward at the top as a result of turn, you don't need to turn the foot to do this. On the downswing the left knee flexs outward and the position of the foot has changed. Shear forces, like Sevam talks about, are always created in the swing as a result of rotation (specifically knee rotation). I was experimenting with "pre-torquing" my right foot yesterday, and realized the only way to do it was rotate my knee clockwise to some degree at address. Makes no sense to do that, because the knees rotate on the backswing anyway, and create the shear forces in a clockwise direction as a result of the position of the right foot and clockwise pivot. Then on the downswing, weight goes left+the rotation of the left knee creates anticlockwise shear forces. This creates torque forces which move inward and speed the rotation of the hips. This has all been published by an engineer, it's nothing new. The feet create shear forces as a result of the proper pivot, there is no need to do all this pre-setting/torquing/turning etc. with the feet. Look it up on TPI.

 

 

 

Tiltswing,

 

That's correct and in fact it is exactly what I have been saying. Because something has been published by an engineer and mentioned in passing does not, however, mean that it is being properly integrated into teaching methods. For the most part it is not. It is assumed that the legs will work a certain way, but I think you will agree that most golfer do not manage their connection with the ground particularly well. That is what I have been trying to draw attention to.

 

People, generally do not move properly into the right leg especially in terms of rotational aspect and the creation of resitance and shear forces. The pretorque is nothing more than setting up at address the feeling that should build on a proper backswing. It is a way to feel what it mean to move down and mover rotationally into the right leg on the backswing. It is just a guarantee built in to address for people who have no idea of how to move into the right leg in the correct manner. This is exactly what I have said about the pretorque:

 

"The Pretorque had got me to feel for the first time the pressure that great ballstrikers build into the right side on the backswing. Most do it naturally as part of a finely managed backswing."

 

Building that feeling is early is sort of like insurance to make sure it happens, but more importantly it is an instructional device. TPI does in fact confirm the presence of these forces. These forces and their use and the use and awareness of the ground and managing your relationship with the ground has been what I have been on about in this whole exercise. Ben Hogan I believe, build significantly greater than average shear forces. You will be surpirsed until you experiment with and test the limits of how much this pressure can be built. If you toy with it you will be amazed.

 

Modern instruction in general has very little to say about how to use the ground. I think that that should change and I think that it is. No one in the history of golf used the ground better than Ben Hogan. Everything else about the mechanics of his swing flows from that.

 

Sevam1

 

 

I'd think Hogan did create greater shear forces as a result of his pivot. But you've been saying the secret of Hogan's swing was him pre-setting them at address, and I think that's false because Hogan clearly, always turned correctly into the right side:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8

 

Thus he always created shear forces, and this can be seen with any good (or even mediorcre) ball striker. Maybe Hogan did it better (creating shear forces that is), but there are so many, more important things that made Hogan unique, not the amout of shear forces he generated. He wouldn't need to preset anything because his pivot was great. Also, with regards to the idea that his secret was about keeping more pressure on his right foot, look at this picture (it is from the 1967 Masters):

 

 

You can pause pre-secret Hogan in the video I put here at the same spot. I think post-secret Hogan's foot is further off the ground, so the idea of getting more pressure on the right foot as being his secret doesn't make sense either. He wanted weight LEFT.

 

I think that Hogan move right well always aswell, but he didn't always manage transition as well as he did later. Also what I have said was the secret was The Move or the Hogan pivot or more specifically a backshifting pivot which is unique. I found out that it would happened if I built certain shear forces into the right foot on the backswing. The presetting is merely a guarantee that these shear forces will build on the backswing. It is also a way to learn the feeling of it and to give the "live tension" that Hogan speaks of a clear and specific direction for people who likely have never felt these forces build. Everything that Hogan says and does flows from that pivot move.

 

Sevam1

[fats]

Thanks Moefan...poor guy, if he added any more spikes with the heavy steel in those days his shoes could be used as divers weighted boots. LOL

 

Hi Fats

How about this?

His extra spike was "easy to see if he told you where to look" and it was also "in the dirt."

I think I'm losing it!

 

Moefan

 

Laughing so hard I can't type!!! Great stuff!!

[eightiron]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

eight

 

Did you read my post?

 

I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

Squish,

 

The left knee rotates to the top as a result of the hip turn:

 

 

 

The left knee is flexed inward at the top as a result of turn, you don't need to turn the foot to do this. On the downswing the left knee flexs outward and the position of the foot has changed. Shear forces, like Sevam talks about, are always created in the swing as a result of rotation (specifically knee rotation). I was experimenting with "pre-torquing" my right foot yesterday, and realized the only way to do it was rotate my knee clockwise to some degree at address. Makes no sense to do that, because the knees rotate on the backswing anyway, and create the shear forces in a clockwise direction as a result of the position of the right foot and clockwise pivot. Then on the downswing, weight goes left+the rotation of the left knee creates anticlockwise shear forces. This creates torque forces which move inward and speed the rotation of the hips. This has all been published by an engineer, it's nothing new. The feet create shear forces as a result of the proper pivot, there is no need to do all this pre-setting/torquing/turning etc. with the feet. Look it up on TPI.

 

 

 

Tiltswing,

 

That's correct and in fact it is exactly what I have been saying. Because something has been published by an engineer and mentioned in passing does not, however, mean that it is being properly integrated into teaching methods. For the most part it is not. It is assumed that the legs will work a certain way, but I think you will agree that most golfer do not manage their connection with the ground particularly well. That is what I have been trying to draw attention to.

 

People, generally do not move properly into the right leg especially in terms of rotational aspect and the creation of resitance and shear forces. The pretorque is nothing more than setting up at address the feeling that should build on a proper backswing. It is a way to feel what it means to move down and move rotationally into the right leg on the backswing. It is just a guarantee built in to address for people who have no idea of how to move into the right leg in the correct manner. This is exactly what I have said about the pretorque:

 

"The Pretorque had got me to feel for the first time the pressure that great ballstrikers build into the right side on the backswing. Most do it naturally as part of a finely managed backswing."

 

Building that feeling is early is sort of like insurance to make sure it happens, but more importantly it is an instructional device. TPI does in fact confirm the presence of these forces. These forces and their use and the use and awareness of the ground and managing your relationship with the ground has been what I have been on about in this whole exercise. Ben Hogan I believe, build significantly greater than average shear forces. You will be surpirsed until you experiment with and test the limits of how much this pressure can be built. If you toy with it you will be amazed.

 

Modern instruction in general has very little to say about how to use the ground. I think that that should change and I think that it is. No one in the history of golf used the ground better than Ben Hogan. Everything else about the mechanics of his swing flows from that.

 

Sevam1

 

Sevam i do believe the info from TPI is quite different from your "move" and there is no active turning of feet..shear forces are a byproduct of the correct functioning of the pivot zone. Downward pressure is in play because a player is standing on their feet. The shear forces alluded to are a clockwise pressure from the right foot from pushing off the right foot in the golfswing and anticlockwise in the left foot from the weight moving left in transition through to impact. Again ..these forces are not Active Motionsof the player.

Now evidence has been presented that the left foot slipped to produce the hook at Olympic...How does this information fit into the Equation? And how does this fit into being Mr Hogan's Secret?

[Tiltswing]

To add insult to injury....here is a quote from SI about olympic.

 

Was it the right foot that slipped?

I think it was the left.

 

"People still talk about the awesome rough at the 1955 Open. During his playoff with Fleck, Hogan came to the 18th trailing by only a stroke. His left foot slipped when he hit his drive, the ball carried into the foot-high hay to the left and it took him three shots to get it back to the fairway, where he could take a normal swing at it. There is also the story about the golfer and his caddie who walked into the rough to help find a lost ball. The caddie dropped his player's bag, and later they could not find the bag."

 

 

Well well that's interesting...the LEFT foot slipped...so then you can clearly see Hogan moves his weight left early now?

 

eight

 

Did you read my post?

 

I flexed the left knee to the top, by clockwise rotating the left foot.

I pronated the left and supinated the right forearm in the classic Hogan manner to the top, cupping the left wrist.

The pulling pressure was still rotating left due to the clockwise screwing, I backshifted into into and against the flexed left knee, letting the right leg sag,

and did not let the flexed left knee break down.

In this manner

You will notice hogans left heel at the top does not rise in the traditional manner.

From there I simply turned the left knee out against the left foot clockwise rotation, as I let the right foot evert, pulling the right side around, letting the torso swing the arms.

 

I believe Hogan controlled his entire movement with the clockwise screwing of the left lower leg.

 

Squish,

 

The left knee rotates to the top as a result of the hip turn:

 

 

 

The left knee is flexed inward at the top as a result of turn, you don't need to turn the foot to do this. On the downswing the left knee flexs outward and the position of the foot has changed. Shear forces, like Sevam talks about, are always created in the swing as a result of rotation (specifically knee rotation). I was experimenting with "pre-torquing" my right foot yesterday, and realized the only way to do it was rotate my knee clockwise to some degree at address. Makes no sense to do that, because the knees rotate on the backswing anyway, and create the shear forces in a clockwise direction as a result of the position of the right foot and clockwise pivot. Then on the downswing, weight goes left+the rotation of the left knee creates anticlockwise shear forces. This creates torque forces which move inward and speed the rotation of the hips. This has all been published by an engineer, it's nothing new. The feet create shear forces as a result of the proper pivot, there is no need to do all this pre-setting/torquing/turning etc. with the feet. Look it up on TPI.

 

 

 

Tiltswing,

 

That's correct and in fact it is exactly what I have been saying. Because something has been published by an engineer and mentioned in passing does not, however, mean that it is being properly integrated into teaching methods. For the most part it is not. It is assumed that the legs will work a certain way, but I think you will agree that most golfer do not manage their connection with the ground particularly well. That is what I have been trying to draw attention to.

 

People, generally do not move properly into the right leg especially in terms of rotational aspect and the creation of resitance and shear forces. The pretorque is nothing more than setting up at address the feeling that should build on a proper backswing. It is a way to feel what it mean to move down and mover rotationally into the right leg on the backswing. It is just a guarantee built in to address for people who have no idea of how to move into the right leg in the correct manner. This is exactly what I have said about the pretorque:

 

"The Pretorque had got me to feel for the first time the pressure that great ballstrikers build into the right side on the backswing. Most do it naturally as part of a finely managed backswing."

 

Building that feeling is early is sort of like insurance to make sure it happens, but more importantly it is an instructional device. TPI does in fact confirm the presence of these forces. These forces and their use and the use and awareness of the ground and managing your relationship with the ground has been what I have been on about in this whole exercise. Ben Hogan I believe, build significantly greater than average shear forces. You will be surpirsed until you experiment with and test the limits of how much this pressure can be built. If you toy with it you will be amazed.

 

Modern instruction in general has very little to say about how to use the ground. I think that that should change and I think that it is. No one in the history of golf used the ground better than Ben Hogan. Everything else about the mechanics of his swing flows from that.

 

Sevam1

 

 

I'd think Hogan did create greater shear forces as a result of his pivot. But you've been saying the secret of Hogan's swing was him pre-setting them at address, and I think that's false because Hogan clearly, always turned correctly into the right side:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8

 

Thus he always created shear forces, and this can be seen with any good (or even mediorcre) ball striker. Maybe Hogan did it better (creating shear forces that is), but there are so many, more important things that made Hogan unique, not the amout of shear forces he generated. He wouldn't need to preset anything because his pivot was great. Also, with regards to the idea that his secret was about keeping more pressure on his right foot, look at this picture (it is from the 1967 Masters):

 

 

You can pause pre-secret Hogan in the video I put here at the same spot. I think post-secret Hogan's foot is further off the ground, so the idea of getting more pressure on the right foot as being his secret doesn't make sense either. He wanted weight LEFT.

 

I think that Hogan move right well always aswell, but he didn't always manage transition as well as he did later. Also what I have said was the secret was The Move or the Hogan pivot or more specifically a backshifting pivot which is unique. I found out that it would happened if I built certain shear forces into the right foot on the backswing. The presetting is merely a guarantee that these shear forces will build on the backswing. It is also a way to learn the feeling of it and to give the "live tension" that Hogan speaks of a clear and specific direction for people who likely have never felt these forces build. Everything that Hogan says and does flows from that pivot move.

 

Sevam1

 

So you are now coming to the same conclusion as VJ Trolio? I think eightiron's question above this makes a very good point as well.

[Squish]

Why not rotation?

A rotation causes a rotation.

 

I did not read that report.

 

Shear forces of the feet are twisting actions against the ground,

using the inside muscles of the leg.

The torso responds.

 

They can do that because you have a set of bones down there.

The tibia and fibula. The muscles gastrock and solus etc.. move those bones.

The protagonist against the antagonist. Same as the forearms.

They have the ability to snap.

 

The others can't.

[Tiltswing]

Why not rotation?

A rotation causes a rotation.

 

I did not read that report.

 

Shear forces of the feet are twisting actions against the ground,

using the inside muscles of the leg.

The torso responds.

 

They can do that because you have a set of bones down there.

The tibia and fibula. The muscles gastrock and solus etc.. move those bones.

The protagonist against the antagonist. Same as the forearms.

They have the ability to snap.

 

The others can't.

 

Knees and feet follow shoulders and hips. Pivot correctly and the knees and feet will follow and do their part. Whatever works for you, if rotating the feet works for you that's fine. Fact is if the hips and shoulders rotate properly back and through the feet will rotate and the shear forces will be created.

[Squish]

Why not rotation?

A rotation causes a rotation.

 

I did not read that report.

 

Shear forces of the feet are twisting actions against the ground,

using the inside muscles of the leg.

The torso responds.

 

They can do that because you have a set of bones down there.

The tibia and fibula. The muscles gastrock and solus etc.. move those bones.

The protagonist against the antagonist. Same as the forearms.

They have the ability to snap.

 

The others can't.

 

Knees and feet follow shoulders and hips. Pivot correctly and the knees and feet will follow and do their part. Whatever works for you, if rotating the feet works for you that's fine. Fact is if the hips and shoulders rotate properly back and through the feet will rotate and the shear forces will be created.

 

AhHa!

 

There are three types of shearing the one I use is Torsion.

It does not displace as the others do.

[Tiltswing]

Why not rotation?

A rotation causes a rotation.

 

I did not read that report.

 

Shear forces of the feet are twisting actions against the ground,

using the inside muscles of the leg.

The torso responds.

 

They can do that because you have a set of bones down there.

The tibia and fibula. The muscles gastrock and solus etc.. move those bones.

The protagonist against the antagonist. Same as the forearms.

They have the ability to snap.

 

The others can't.

 

Knees and feet follow shoulders and hips. Pivot correctly and the knees and feet will follow and do their part. Whatever works for you, if rotating the feet works for you that's fine. Fact is if the hips and shoulders rotate properly back and through the feet will rotate and the shear forces will be created.

 

AhHa!

 

There are three types of shearing the one I use is Torsion.

 

If you properly rotate the hips and shoulders, straighten the right knee and bend the left, you will create the same shear forces as Hogan. Maybe not as strong, but they'll be there.