Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[Squish]

Why not rotation?

A rotation causes a rotation.

 

I did not read that report.

 

Shear forces of the feet are twisting actions against the ground,

using the inside muscles of the leg.

The torso responds.

 

They can do that because you have a set of bones down there.

The tibia and fibula. The muscles gastrock and solus etc.. move those bones.

The protagonist against the antagonist. Same as the forearms.

They have the ability to snap.

 

The others can't.

 

Knees and feet follow shoulders and hips. Pivot correctly and the knees and feet will follow and do their part. Whatever works for you, if rotating the feet works for you that's fine. Fact is if the hips and shoulders rotate properly back and through the feet will rotate and the shear forces will be created.

 

AhHa!

 

There are three types of shearing the one I use is Torsion.

 

If you properly rotate the hips and shoulders, straighten the right knee and bend the left, you will create the same shear forces as Hogan. Maybe not as strong, but they'll be there.

 

Well what moves the hips?

 

The ankles and knees.

 

The ankles knees and hips move the torso.

If you had no arms and legs you roll around like a weiner.

[Tiltswing]

Why not rotation?

A rotation causes a rotation.

 

I did not read that report.

 

Shear forces of the feet are twisting actions against the ground,

using the inside muscles of the leg.

The torso responds.

 

They can do that because you have a set of bones down there.

The tibia and fibula. The muscles gastrock and solus etc.. move those bones.

The protagonist against the antagonist. Same as the forearms.

They have the ability to snap.

 

The others can't.

 

Knees and feet follow shoulders and hips. Pivot correctly and the knees and feet will follow and do their part. Whatever works for you, if rotating the feet works for you that's fine. Fact is if the hips and shoulders rotate properly back and through the feet will rotate and the shear forces will be created.

 

AhHa!

 

There are three types of shearing the one I use is Torsion.

 

If you properly rotate the hips and shoulders, straighten the right knee and bend the left, you will create the same shear forces as Hogan. Maybe not as strong, but they'll be there.

 

Well what moves the hips?

 

The ankles and knees.

 

The ankles knees and hips move the torso.

If you had no arms and legs you roll around like a weiner.

 

Not on the backswing they don't. Hogan said multiple times in Five Lessons "Turn the hips to start the downswing." The knees and hips reacted to this command, to allow the hips to turn the knees and feet move into the correct positions. I'm standing here, making backswings, and just trying to turn my hips to start the downswing (Hogan could do this because his weight was already left). My knees and feet get in the right positions, no problem. Again, we're talking about 2 different ways to do the same thing.

[sevam1]

Sevam i do believe the info from TPI is quite different from your "move" and there is no active turning of feet..shear forces are a byproduct of the correct functioning of the pivot zone. Downward pressure is in play because a player is standing on their feet. The shear forces alluded to are a clockwise pressure from the right foot from pushing off the right foot in the golfswing and anticlockwise in the left foot from the weight moving left in transition through to impact. Again ..these forces are not Active Motionsof the player.

Now evidence has been presented that the left foot slipped to produce the hook at Olympic...How does this information fit into the Equation? And how does this fit into being Mr Hogan's Secret?

 

eithiron,

 

That is true, TPI does not go into what I call the move at all. The only thing there that I have seen is information about the the rotational forces in the feet created during the swing. TPI has nothing to say about the move. Just feelings in the swing in general. My feelings about the nature of these shear forces is different than what TPI has to say. In my view of the swing shear forces are used to motivate things. In the TPI model they are effects that are felt. This is very major difference between what TPI is noting and what I am saying. There is a fundamental difference in the cause and effect chain. MY views are almost diametrically opposed to what to the TPI view. My view is that the shear forces are not effects but the source of motivation for several key moves in the swing.

 

The SI quote is about the left foot slipping is interesting and now it seems that different sources now point to different feet as the source of the slip. I will have to follow up on that one and find out which sources say what. Th SI quote is one I have not seen until today. It is interesting and I will investigate this.

 

Sevam1

[Squish]

Why not rotation?

A rotation causes a rotation.

 

I did not read that report.

 

Shear forces of the feet are twisting actions against the ground,

using the inside muscles of the leg.

The torso responds.

 

They can do that because you have a set of bones down there.

The tibia and fibula. The muscles gastrock and solus etc.. move those bones.

The protagonist against the antagonist. Same as the forearms.

They have the ability to snap.

 

The others can't.

 

Knees and feet follow shoulders and hips. Pivot correctly and the knees and feet will follow and do their part. Whatever works for you, if rotating the feet works for you that's fine. Fact is if the hips and shoulders rotate properly back and through the feet will rotate and the shear forces will be created.

 

AhHa!

 

There are three types of shearing the one I use is Torsion.

 

If you properly rotate the hips and shoulders, straighten the right knee and bend the left, you will create the same shear forces as Hogan. Maybe not as strong, but they'll be there.

 

Well what moves the hips?

 

The ankles and knees.

 

The ankles knees and hips move the torso.

If you had no arms and legs you roll around like a weiner.

 

Not on the backswing they don't. Hogan said multiple times in Five Lessons "Turn the hips to start the downswing." The knees and hips reacted to this command, to allow the hips to turn the knees and feet move into the correct positions. I'm standing here, making backswings, and just trying to turn my hips to start the downswing (Hogan could do this because his weight was already left). My knees and feet get in the right positions, no problem. Again, we're talking about 2 different ways to do the same thing.

 

Yep

If I tell you you put your hand atop the head, you used the shoulder. You did not use the hand.

It went for the ride.

[sevam1]

So you are now coming to the same conclusion as VJ Trolio? I think eightiron's question above this makes a very good point as well.

 

Actually, I agree with VJ Trolio about the significance of the pivot and backshift. I disagree with VJ Trolio with respect to how that backshift was motivated. I disagree about how Ben Hogan made that move happen and also about where the weight was at various points in the swing. I hope to meet with him and have a conversation with him soon about this.

 

Sevam1

[Tiltswing]

I think TPI would have a better idea of what's going on considering they measure everything electronically.

[fats]

Glad to see these endless and boring multiple quotes come to an end...Squish, wish you'd do the same or this will end up as difficult to read at the so-called mega thread.

[Squish]

Fats

Are you laughing so hard you are rolling around on the floor like a weiner.

[eightiron]

So you are now coming to the same conclusion as VJ Trolio? I think eightiron's question above this makes a very good point as well.

 

Actually, I agree with VJ Trolio about the significance of the pivot and backshift. I disagree with VJ Trolio with respect to how that backshift was motivated. I disagree about how Ben Hogan made that move happen and also about where the weight was at various points in the swing. I hope to meet with him and have a conversation with him soon about this.

 

Sevam1

 

 

Sevam the evidence has been presented that Hogan's Left Foot slipped at Olympic and you have based your claim that Hogan's Secret came from the fact that his Right Foot slipped...Seems that the hook was caused from his left side breaking down...Any answers for this?

 

Further your own pivot does not look at all like Mr Hogan...you don't have a Backshifting Pivot ala Mr Hogan

[sevam1]

Not on the backswing they don't. Hogan said multiple times in Five Lessons "Turn the hips to start the downswing." The knees and hips reacted to this command, to allow the hips to turn the knees and feet move into the correct positions. I'm standing here, making backswings, and just trying to turn my hips to start the downswing (Hogan could do this because his weight was already left). My knees and feet get in the right positions, no problem. Again, we're talking about 2 different ways to do the same thing.

 

You can execute the turn the hips from the ball of the right foot also. The weight distribution and setup angles and the rest were how he toyed with trajectory and all of the rest which is exactly how I was jerking those trajectories around in the Trajectory Talk video. Ben Hogan did the same. In fact my understanding is that when he practiced for anything important the first thing he worked on was trajectory, distance control and general stiking quality in the morning. He took a break for lunch and then zeroed in on the direction in the afternoon.

 

I believe that the more in tune you get with those feeling in your feet the better you will get. Whether you chose to motivate the action or simply monitor it you will improve. That is a big part of the whole thing.

 

Sevam1

[sevam1]

So you are now coming to the same conclusion as VJ Trolio? I think eightiron's question above this makes a very good point as well.

 

Actually, I agree with VJ Trolio about the significance of the pivot and backshift. I disagree with VJ Trolio with respect to how that backshift was motivated. I disagree about how Ben Hogan made that move happen and also about where the weight was at various points in the swing. I hope to meet with him and have a conversation with him soon about this.

 

Sevam1

 

 

Sevam the evidence has been presented that Hogan's Left Foot slipped at Olympic and you have based your claim that Hogan's Secret came from the fact that his Right Foot slipped...Seems that the hook was caused from his left side breaking down...Any answers for this?

 

Further your own pivot does not look at all like Mr Hogan...you don't have a Backshifting Pivot ala Mr Hogan

 

eightiron,

 

As I said above about the SI article it is news to me. The sources that I have about the right foot slip are books. I an't remember if it was the Dodson book or the Sampson book or what where the right foot info came from, so it is not right at hand. But like I said above when I find the other sources I will report back.

 

As for the pivot, I back targetward in before I turn. You can call that what you want.

 

Sevam1

[sevam1]

I think TPI would have a better idea of what's going on considering they measure everything electronically.

 

Yes I know, but unfortunately they didn't measure Ben Hogan.

[fats]

In fact my understanding is that when he practiced for anything important the first thing he worked on was trajectory, distance control and general stiking quality in the morning. He took a break for lunch and then zeroed in on the direction in the afternoon.

 

Sevam1

 

 

Where did you come up with that one?

[Tiltswing]

Sevam,

 

 

You are again pointing out common aspects of great ball strikers, what you're saying is definitely NOT Hogan's secret. There are so many unique things about Hogan's swing, and you choose things that can be seen in any acceptable golf swing, like shear forces and right foot pressure, and then claim it was Hogan's secret? Shear forces are not the secret, and they don't cause the backshifting pivot otherwise all good ball-strikers would backshift. You seem to think shear forces are calling the shots, I disagree. The pivot calls the shots, and the shear forces are just part of it. You didn't measure Ben Hogan either, TPI can study common characteristics of the swing and provide scientific reasons for why certain actions occur. You just state things like fact and leave it like that. I don't think there's a single, knowledgable person left who thinks Hogan's secret was shear forces. Watch this video:

 

 

The pivot is clearly pulling/lifting/rolling the feet, the feet are not being consciously manipulated. Also, Hogan's left COG transfer in the backswing (backshift) is clearly not necessary to get to the left leg and release left. Slicefixer's students rotate into the right leg, consciously turn on the downswing (although there in lateral motion as well) and arrive into the left leg which allows them to release left. If you had the footage, you'd see that post-secret pre-accident Hogan did the same thing.

[eightiron]

Am I the only one thinking stuff is being made up just for this Charade to continue????

[jaskanski]

How does anyone know with any degree of certainty exactly what Hogan's secret was?

 

 

Give it up guys - it's getting pretty boring now.

[sevam1]

In fact my understanding is that when he practiced for anything important the first thing he worked on was trajectory, distance control and general stiking quality in the morning. He took a break for lunch and then zeroed in on the direction in the afternoon.

 

Sevam1

 

 

Where did you come up with that one?

 

I can't remember if it was the Dodson book or one of the article about the guys who shagged for him like Wally Payne and Paul Darwin. I can't remember exactly where I read that.

 

Sevam1

[dfw1500]

Sevam1's secret is not a secret of Mr Hogan's swing, but it is a different way of saying how to use and stabilise the right leg in the backswing as Mr Hogan did........having many ways to say the same deal is always useful but it is def not the secret as it is something that many have taught for a LONG time, it is simply saying an old thing in a different way and an EXCELLENT way of saying it.

 

The key to Mr Hogan's swing IMOP was to allow him to get OVER his left pivot point as soon as possible........the sooner that he got there the sooner and faster he could turn around it......this is in Mr Hogan's pivot action, once he figured out that IF he got "into"/"over" his left side/left pivot point/left leg that he could unwind around it more "level left" rather than underneath and up......by doing this hhis arms would be PULLED around by the pivot/core unwinding.......

[dfw1500]

Sevam1's secret is not a secret of Mr Hogan's swing, but it is a different way of saying how to use and stabilise the right leg in the backswing as Mr Hogan did........having many ways to say the same deal is always useful but it is def not the secret as it is something that many have taught for a LONG time, it is simply saying an old thing in a different way and an EXCELLENT way of saying it.

 

The key to Mr Hogan's swing IMOP was to allow him to get OVER his left pivot point as soon as possible........the sooner that he got there the sooner and faster he could turn around it......this is in Mr Hogan's pivot action, once he figured out that IF he got "into"/"over" his left side/left pivot point/left leg that he could unwind around it more "level left" rather than underneath and up......by doing this hhis arms would be PULLED around by the pivot/core unwinding.......this PULLS the butt of the club "around low and left"........during the unwinding his upper left arm/both arms are PULLED tight against the chest, the butt of the club works "left" this turns the face down and squares "it"........the arms are perfectly related to the chest with the right side behind the blow as the face squares, (this is VERY different to Sevam's DTL release).....the KEY to his secret was the way he opened up the left arm/clubface in the backswing which cupped the wrist, then in the downswing, the combination of the core rotation and the connection of the upper left side "re-rotated" it for him which "slingshots the toe of the club" and squares the face for him without fear of a HOOK ;)

 

Mr Hogan had his right knee kicked in a bit (ive taught this for a LONG while) and the right foot squared up.....this creates the stretch ASAP and eliminates any lateral slide of the lower body in the backswing.......he KNEW if he got wound up and got to the left pivot pint with the fewest amount of moving parts then he could UNWIND/rotate AROUND.

 

If the right foot side was pushing off then he would not be able to relaese the club in the manner taht he did......you "cannot push against a pulling force".....in other words IF the left side is clearinf/accerating rotating then the right arm/side is following/reacting.....the pulling force must "slow/stall" for the right arm to "engage" and act on it;s own.........therefore the arms were simply along for the ride.

 

Lastly as Bob Torrance says (he spent a week with Mr Hogan) that in practicing a player will not feel his arms or upper body tired at the end of a session but will instead onlt feel tired in the legs as these are the govenors of the swing and are what are used to created leverage in the golfswing.......this he says he learnt from Mr Hogan, but this can all be used in the transition from the left side as the right side reacts and is the move Mr Hogan used.......he did pre-torque the right side but as MANY have said this IS NOT the secret, it may be Sevam's secret to his game and using theground but is not a revelation to many other's. ;)

 

Cheers Dan

[sevam1]

Sevam,

 

 

You are again pointing out common aspects of great ball strikers, what you're saying is definitely NOT Hogan's secret. There are so many unique things about Hogan's swing, and you choose things that can be seen in any acceptable golf swing, like shear forces and right foot pressure, and then claim it was Hogan's secret? Shear forces are not the secret, and they don't cause the backshifting pivot otherwise all good ball-strikers would backshift. You seem to think shear forces are calling the shots, I disagree. The pivot calls the shots, and the shear forces are just part of it. You didn't measure Ben Hogan either, TPI can study common characteristics of the swing and provide scientific reasons for why certain actions occur. You just state things like fact and leave it like that. I don't think there's a single, knowledgable person left who thinks Hogan's secret was shear forces. Watch this video:

 

 

The pivot is clearly pulling/lifting/rolling the feet, the feet are not being consciously manipulated. Also, Hogan's left COG transfer in the backswing (backshift) is clearly not necessary to get to the left leg and release left. Slicefixer's students rotate into the right leg, consciously turn on the downswing (although there in lateral motion as well) and arrive into the left leg which allows them to release left. If you had the footage, you'd see that post-secret pre-accident Hogan did the same thing.

 

 

Actually what I am saying is that I think that if TPI could have taken shear force measurements and weight transfer measurements of Ben Hogan his results would have been an anomoly when compared to the rest of the pro's that they gathered data from. I am fine that you don't believe that there's a single knowledgable person left who thinks Hogan's secret was shear forces. It still remains what I believe.

 

Sevam1

[fats]

In fact my understanding is that when he practiced for anything important the first thing he worked on was trajectory, distance control and general stiking quality in the morning. He took a break for lunch and then zeroed in on the direction in the afternoon.

 

Sevam1

 

 

Where did you come up with that one?

 

I can't remember if it was the Dodson book or one of the article about the guys who shagged for him like Wally Payne and Paul Darwin. I can't remember exactly where I read that.

 

Sevam1

 

 

I've practiced next to him and even on game day he worked on shots and trajectory. Never in my life have I heard he didn't include accuracy along with everytyhing he worked on...he would deem it a failure otherwise.

[Tiltswing]

Sevam1's secret is not a secret of Mr Hogan's swing, but it is a different way of saying how to use and stabilise the right leg in the backswing as Mr Hogan did........having many ways to say the same deal is always useful but it is def not the secret as it is something that many have taught for a LONG time, it is simply saying an old thing in a different way and an EXCELLENT way of saying it.

 

The key to Mr Hogan's swing IMOP was to allow him to get OVER his left pivot point as soon as possible........the sooner that he got there the sooner and faster he could turn around it......this is in Mr Hogan's pivot action, once he figured out that IF he got "into"/"over" his left side/left pivot point/left leg that he could unwind around it more "level left" rather than underneath and up......by doing this hhis arms would be PULLED around by the pivot/core unwinding.......

 

 

THANK YOU! EXACTLY! Isn't this what fcavallo/eightiron/I been saying this whole time?

[moefan]

I seem to recall Hogan saying "until you have trajectory you have nothing"

Moefan

[fats]

I seem to recall Hogan saying "until you have trajectory you have nothing"

Moefan

 

 

So what does that mean...he didn't care where it came down? Ben Hogan we're talking about here not Sam Sausage...LOL

 

In addition MOEFAN...Moe liked trajectory also...did he have to come back in the afternoon to make it go where he wanted it to go?

[moefan]

I seem to recall Hogan saying "until you have trajectory you have nothing"

Moefan

 

 

So what does that mean...he didn't care where it came down? Ben Hogan we're talking about here not Sam Sausage...LOL

 

In addition MOEFAN...Moe liked trajectory also...did he have to come back in the afternoon to make it go where he wanted it to go?

 

 

Hi Fats

Just something I remembered when he was talking about trajectory.

Moefan

 

Funny thing is I thought it was Jack Nicklaus that said he didn't worry too much about direction at the start of his warm-up?

[asmooth7]

Doesn't seem difficult to understand you can be working on trajectory, zeroing in trajectory even, and still have a target. Mr. Hogans shot dispersion would be tight regardless of what aspect of his game he was working on at the moment. Don't ya think?

Seems completely reasonable he could work on trajectory in the a.m. shot shapes etc in the afternoon. Either way, it's all speculation and hearsay...by ANYONE on this board.

[fats]

BTW...I played a few times up in Ormand Beach and Orlando with Moe...great guy and incredible ball striker.

 

I always admired him...stick around him any length of time and I s tarted talking l;ike him...not all bad...best

[dfw1500]

Sevam1's secret is not a secret of Mr Hogan's swing, but it is a different way of saying how to use and stabilise the right leg in the backswing as Mr Hogan did........having many ways to say the same deal is always useful but it is def not the secret as it is something that many have taught for a LONG time, it is simply saying an old thing in a different way and an EXCELLENT way of saying it.

 

The key to Mr Hogan's swing IMOP was to allow him to get OVER his left pivot point as soon as possible........the sooner that he got there the sooner and faster he could turn around it......this is in Mr Hogan's pivot action, once he figured out that IF he got "into"/"over" his left side/left pivot point/left leg that he could unwind around it more "level left" rather than underneath and up......by doing this hhis arms would be PULLED around by the pivot/core unwinding.......

 

 

THANK YOU! EXACTLY! Isn't this what fcavallo/eightiron/I been saying this whole time?

 

I HAVE finished my post with an edit and IMOP Sevam's move is simply a move that benefits him using the ground for leverage, BUT is not the secret and is simply a way of saying the same deal of the torque/stability/brace of the right side in the backswing in a dif way but it does NOT make him get OVER the left pivot point and turn level left around it......as Mr Hogan stated, once i understood how to get onot the left pivot point and turn level left then I could hit the ball with maximum power and accuracy.....the key was then the sooner I could get onto the pivot point the sooner and quicker/faster I could turn around it ;)

 

Cheers Dan

[fats]

Doesn't seem difficult to understand you can be working on trajectory, zeroing in trajectory even, and still have a target. Mr. Hogans shot dispersion would be tight regardless of what aspect of his game he was working on at the moment. Don't ya think?

Seems completely reasonable he could work on trajectory in the a.m. shot shapes etc in the afternoon. Either way, it's all speculation and hearsay...by ANYONE on this board.

 

Tuesday of the very first Doral I got to the practice tee and it was loaded...only two space availabe...one to Hogan's left the other to his right...I stepped in there to his right so I could watch him...He was hitting every type shot in the book and some I'd never thought about as a raw rookie...I decided what the heck, try to match him,...his balls landed right next to his ball shagger I chased my caddy all over the lot...It was fun...I played well that week...practiced next to him 3 times in the 6 days...He wasn't one to leave loose ends.

 

Signed ANYONE LOL

[asmooth7]

If it's an ego issue...I'm well aware of who you are...k?

 

And...I envy the opportunity you had, must of been a hell of an experience. Having said that...I'm comfortable with my original statement also.

 

 

 

Doesn't seem difficult to understand you can be working on trajectory, zeroing in trajectory even, and still have a target. Mr. Hogans shot dispersion would be tight regardless of what aspect of his game he was working on at the moment. Don't ya think?

Seems completely reasonable he could work on trajectory in the a.m. shot shapes etc in the afternoon. Either way, it's all speculation and hearsay...by ANYONE on this board.

 

Tuesday of the very first Doral I got to the practice tee and it was loaded...only two space availabe...one to Hogan's left the other to his right...I stepped in there to his right so I could watch him...He was hitting every type shot in the book and some I'd never thought about as a raw rookie...I decided what the heck, try to match him,...his balls landed right next to his ball shagger I chased my caddy all over the lot...It was fun...I played well that week...practiced next to him 3 times in the 6 days...He wasn't one to leave loose ends.

 

Signed ANYONE LOL