Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[KOC]

For reference only...

 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=M_GP4NVZxcw

[KevCarter]

For reference only...

 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=M_GP4NVZxcw

 

Do you older guys remember a teacher named Joe Nichols? His claim to fame was the "Rotor" and he taught many tour players. This falling back discussion reminds me of one of the funniest things I ever heard during a lesson. I was watching Joe teach a former US Women's Open Champion on my practice tee around 1980. She was hitting these beautiful little 50 yard pitches. Her swing looked a little strange though... after every swing she would fall back on her right foot.

 

Player: "Joe, this just doesn't feel right to me?"

 

Joe "What do you mean, it's PERFECT!"

 

Player "But Joe, I'm falling back on my right foot?"

 

Joe "It's PERFECT. You are hitting the ball so solid, the compression is literally knocking you back."

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I'll never forget that line!!!

 

Kevin

[Swoosh-Thud]

Exactly..

 

 

step drill ??

 

 

It was Schlee who when paired with Gary Player at the GGO who inspired the walk through. Player had been hittin em poorly.. Schlee told him you're hanging back, go left young man- Player went to the range and has walked through ever since.

[biscuity]

Use the pivot to release the club, not the hands. That IMHO is the key to the secret.

 

Sure, the pivot sets you up, but Hogan did not have passive hands. Hogan released the club HARD manually, you can see it in the slow motion swings on the beach in Florida. He hit as hard as he could with both hands, on purpose, and not simply a release via the pivot.

 

The key to his Secret was that he set himself up so that no matter how hard he released the club he couldn't hook it. Weak grip, short left thumb, fan the club open as much as he could, shorter backswing, cup the left wrist at the top of the backswing. In that position he could hit as hard as he could and still not hook it. It gave him a power fade and consistency, and removed the smothered hook from his game. That gave him the confidence, under pressure, to win the big ones.

[asmooth7]

Rotating the club open during the backswing allowed him to use his hands, HARD, without the toe passing the heel IMO. He certainly had hand action, and said "hit the ball as hard as you can with both hands". (page 99, Five Lessons.)

[Swoosh-Thud]

Use the pivot to release the club, not the hands. That IMHO is the key to the secret.

 

Sure, the pivot sets you up, but Hogan did not have passive hands. Hogan released the club HARD manually, you can see it in the slow motion swings on the beach in Florida. He hit as hard as he could with both hands, on purpose, and not simply a release via the pivot.

 

The key to his Secret was that he set himself up so that no matter how hard he released the club he couldn't hook it. Weak grip, short left thumb, fan the club open as much as he could, shorter backswing, cup the left wrist at the top of the backswing. In that position he could hit as hard as he could and still not hook it. It gave him a power fade and consistency, and removed the smothered hook from his game. That gave him the confidence, under pressure, to win the big ones.

 

First bold statement: Absolutely wrong. To the point of not discussing.

 

Second statement: Mantra

 

But one and two cannot live together.

 

He hit the snot out of it with both the right and the left sides not the hands. The left release allows you to use the right side without any fear of going left....as long as you 1. get left and 2. don't stall the core.

 

But......(w/out nitpicking and being purposefully naive) in a classic DTL (is it CF? dunno my TGM) the body slows down arms go DTL to release the club.

 

Hogan had very fast hands, but he didn't use them to release the club. And if he did in Florida, guess what: arthrirtis backy no turny. But that swing ain't even close to his comptetitive swings.

[eightiron]

Sevam here are the 4 different driver swings...the first was called a fade..next was a hook..next 2 not sure but here is the shoulder/hip locations redone

My Question ....Is the "Move..Hogan's Secret in the Dirt" creating an inside off plane takeaway and getting your hip/shoulder slants out of position compared to Mr Hogan

[asmooth7]

What does that tell you? Interpret it how you want; I read it as i need to figure out a way to not turn over the toe and hit it as hard as I want............................ie how do I release the club w/out letting the toe catch the heel. Use the pivot to release the club, not the hands. That IMHO is the key to the secret.

 

No matter what method you use to get left you still have to deal with the clubface. The right foot doesn't do that, it get's you left but it doesn't cure the hooks, which is what the secret did.

 

PS That's me, sneakers and all. And yes I'm fat, a major obstacle as that 80# in front of my spine causes lift, sway and gets in the way........destroyed my old swing and rebuilt/-ing in March.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FfizZ6tPC_A

 

Trying to release the club with a pivot only...that swing thought may be a large part of the weak contact (no ball compression) shown in your swing. Just a thought,

[downtoscratch]

For reference only...

 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=M_GP4NVZxcw

 

Do you older guys remember a teacher named Joe Nichols? His claim to fame was the "Rotor" and he taught many tour players. This falling back discussion reminds me of one of the funniest things I ever heard during a lesson. I was watching Joe teach a former US Women's Open Champion on my practice tee around 1980. She was hitting these beautiful little 50 yard pitches. Her swing looked a little strange though... after every swing she would fall back on her right foot.

 

Player: "Joe, this just doesn't feel right to me?"

 

Joe "What do you mean, it's PERFECT!"

 

Player "But Joe, I'm falling back on my right foot?"

 

Joe "It's PERFECT. You are hitting the ball so solid, the compression is literally knocking you back."

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I'll never forget that line!!!

 

Kevin

 

Kevin,

That's a great line and it takes me back a long way. I may still have the only thing

that I ever saw on Joe........ a spread in Golf magazine eons ago. Seems like Howard Twitty

was mentioned as a student of Joe's. I always liked Joe's approach especially from the point

of using both sides of the body in a force meets resistance fashion. dts

[asmooth7]

Sevam here are the 4 different driver swings...the first was called a fade..next was a hook..next 2 not sure but here is the shoulder/hip locations redone

My Question ....Is the "Move..Hogan's Secret in the Dirt" creating an inside off plane takeaway and getting your hip/shoulder slants out of position compared to Mr Hogan

 

Appears to be much about posture don't you think? The amount of bend at the hips, looks like Sevam1 is using a posture that is comfortable for his build, nothing to do with a move...

[Swoosh-Thud]

I'd rather not talk about my swing here. Put it in the othe thread and have at it, don't care.

 

But that is a 60* which I hit 90 yds. But you're wrong: post impact my club head hits 4" in front of the ball on that swing, almost grazing the board up front.

 

Compression has to do with angle of attack, regardless of release.

[asmooth7]

I'd rather not talk about my swing here. Put it in the othe thread and have at it, don't care.

 

But that is a 60* which I hit 90 yds. But you're wrong: post impact my club head hits 4" in front of the ball on that swing, almost grazing the board up front.

 

Compression has to do with angle of attack, regardless of release.

 

oh yeah?...guess it must be an illusion.

 

Release certainly has a whole lot to do with compression btw...release early, what's the 'angle of attack'?

 

Edit: Just saw your edit...not trying to be combative, and I don't take sides, plenty of that here already, just commenting on swings. I enjoy discussing such.

[Ezgolfer]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FfizZ6tPC_A

 

Good swing....

 

Looks quite like slicefixer's students. Definite improvement over the 9 to 3 drill pics saw in last thread few months ago..

[Swoosh-Thud]

Thanks EZ. Ya shoulda seen where I started.

 

But PLEASE STOP talking of my swing here.

 

Someone said post it: I did. Nothing more or less.

 

Saw the edit: None taken as I said ya shoulda seen where I started. But YES I haven't worked on that yet. I've done nothing but 9-3s haven't hit a full throttle shot all year: no wrist **** therefore early release- rebuilding, not done. Only saw Slice in person 3 times.

 

I guess this has merit: as far as rebuilding swings, doesn't that pertain to the secret?

 

I didn't change everything all at once. I worked on my pivot first and going left, but more emphasis on the former. I didn't care what the arms were doing. Then once that foundation was layed I started working on the arms: BS etc

 

Hogan did the same, I assume. One can conclude the secret was/is multifaceted and evolving.....No?

[ryanandrew_golf]

I'd rather not talk about my swing here. Put it in the othe thread and have at it, don't care.

 

But that is a 60* which I hit 90 yds. But you're wrong: post impact my club head hits 4" in front of the ball on that swing, almost grazing the board up front.

 

Compression has to do with angle of attack, regardless of release.

 

oh yeah?...guess it must be an illusion.

 

Release certainly has a whole lot to do with compression btw...release early, what's the 'angle of attack'?

 

Edit: Just saw your edit...not trying to be combative, and I don't take sides, plenty of that here already, just commenting on swings. I enjoy discussing such.

 

I thought it was a pretty decent move. I guess I don't know enough about the swing to be commenting if you can tell how well it's compressed from that youtube vid with no sound...

[asmooth7]

Like I said, it must be an illusion from the camera angle, wasn't trying to be negative. And since it was asked not to talk about that swing, I won't.

[joecu]

why are you not allowed to talk about your morad knowledge ? this is for tiltswing.

[Gxgolfer]

This is the absolute last warning and I'm making it public. Certain members cannot seem to move on after repeated warnings and management intervention so their will be no more warnings from this point forward. Discussion about Hogan's swing yes. Anything else is off topic and now warrants automatic suspensions.

[BogeyTrain]

This digital animation of his swing, seems to capture the essence of Hogan's fundamentals.

 

Face on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDiwpfQ6OvQ...feature=related

 

Notice his hip and shoulder turn, working together, straight out of 5 lessons.

 

 

DTL:

 

A great illustration of his one piece takeway.

 

 

Overhead:

 

At the top of his swing, the club seems to be pointing a little left of target, almost laid back.

[golfpunk]

A nice try but whoever created this model didn't get it right. Hogan was definitely much more open at impact than what this model shows. Overhead shows a square shoulder girdle at impact. I could guess that Hogan was maybe 30-40 degrees open with his shoulders and maybe even more with his hips. DTL also shows square shoulders at impact. Maybe Jim Flick designed this. :russian_roulette:

[eightiron]

:man_in_love: Hogan at 1967 Masters in tournament...check out the right foot at p6 pretty far off the ground and check out the posting up through

[Tiltswing]

This is the absolute last warning and I'm making it public. Certain members cannot seem to move on after repeated warnings and management intervention so their will be no more warnings from this point forward. Discussion about Hogan's swing yes. Anything else is off topic and now warrants automatic suspensions.

 

 

Ok, discussing only Hogan's swing, I'm pretty sure his pre-secret fall-back was the result of his head motion on the downswing. His head starting tilting way back because he didn't know what to do with all the lag he had created and that was the way he released it. Hogan doesn't post left as well pre-secret because his spine is tilted away from the target at finish, even before his falls back on his right foot.

[Dariusz J.]

A nice try but whoever created this model didn't get it right. Hogan was definitely much more open at impact than what this model shows. Overhead shows a square shoulder girdle at impact. I could guess that Hogan was maybe 30-40 degrees open with his shoulders and maybe even more with his hips. DTL also shows square shoulders at impact. Maybe Jim Flick designed this. :russian_roulette:

 

Although you have exaggerated a bit with those shoulders being 30-40* open at impact, you are spot on. The DTL animation is flawed the most of the three.

The best of the three IMO is the top view one where the small X-factors theory as well as the SPC concept can be confirmed despite a bit wrong sequencing. If the author improved these vids according to reality they could be a great learning tool for golfers.

 

Cheers

[moehogan]

:man_in_love: Hogan at 1967 Masters in tournament...check out the right foot at p6 pretty far off the ground and check out the posting up through

 

 

Mr. eightiron,

 

I enlarged the picture on the left and what I noticed was that the inside ball of the foot, the joint connecting the foot and big toe, could easily still be retaining downward pressure with the ground. Unfortunately, the picture is blurry and face on, so it is hard to be sure.

 

Then I tried a slo mo swing ala Mr. Hogan at George Coleman's and I was able to keep pressure on that point with my heel everting three to four inches off of the ground. In this same picture, Mr. Hogan's hands are just about to reach his right leg, the point where the pressure will be lost.

 

Just my two cents.

 

MH

[Tiltswing]

:man_in_love: Hogan at 1967 Masters in tournament...check out the right foot at p6 pretty far off the ground and check out the posting up throughI enlarged the picture on the left and what I noticed was that the inside ball of the foot, the joint connecting the foot and big toe, could easily still be retaining downward pressure with the ground. Unfortunately, the picture is blurry and face on, so it is hard to be sure.

 

 

Mr. eightiron,

 

 

Then I tried a slo mo swing ala Mr. Hogan at George Coleman's and I was able to keep pressure on that point with my heel everting three to four inches off of the ground. In this same picture, Mr. Hogan's hands are just about to reach his right leg, the point where the pressure will be lost.

 

Just my two cents.

 

MH

 

But didn't Hogan always do this?:

 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8

 

Pre-secret Hogan is on the left, you can see that he keeps pressure on his right foot until his hands get into the hitting zone.

[sevam1]

:man_in_love: Hogan at 1967 Masters in tournament...check out the right foot at p6 pretty far off the ground and check out the posting up through

 

Those pics are great , now if we could see two frames prior to the first pic we could see the hands passing the right toe. That is when it is safe for the last of the pressure to leave the ball of the right foot. That is the point where there is no longer any great need to preserve the ability to push. Is it possible to post a frame or two just befor the hands pass the big toe and then this one where the hands have passed the big toe so that we can clearly see what is happening at that moment in the swing? It is an important moment in the swing so I think that it would be beneficial to all on the thread to view this.

 

 

Sevam1

[moehogan]

:man_in_love: Hogan at 1967 Masters in tournament...check out the right foot at p6 pretty far off the ground and check out the posting up throughI enlarged the picture on the left and what I noticed was that the inside ball of the foot, the joint connecting the foot and big toe, could easily still be retaining downward pressure with the ground. Unfortunately, the picture is blurry and face on, so it is hard to be sure.

 

 

Mr. eightiron,

 

 

Then I tried a slo mo swing ala Mr. Hogan at George Coleman's and I was able to keep pressure on that point with my heel everting three to four inches off of the ground. In this same picture, Mr. Hogan's hands are just about to reach his right leg, the point where the pressure will be lost.

 

Just my two cents.

 

MH

 

But didn't Hogan always do this?:

 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8

 

Pre-secret Hogan is on the left, you can see that he keeps pressure on his right foot until his hands get into the hitting zone.

 

 

Mr. eightiron,

 

I looked at the pre-secret video and tried to stop it at the same point as the still picture. Again due to picture quality I cannot say for certain, but the video appears to show Mr. Hogan more into his left side as he appears to be on the outside of his left foot as his hands near his right leg. The still photo seems to show a pretty flat left foot. Could moving to the left side too early and losing right foot pressure have contributed to the fallback?

 

I guess we will really never know for sure since Mr Hogan took it to the grave. However, it is certainly fun to observe, deduce and speculate!

 

Good day sir,

 

MH

[sevam1]

:man_in_love: Hogan at 1967 Masters in tournament...check out the right foot at p6 pretty far off the ground and check out the posting up throughI enlarged the picture on the left and what I noticed was that the inside ball of the foot, the joint connecting the foot and big toe, could easily still be retaining downward pressure with the ground. Unfortunately, the picture is blurry and face on, so it is hard to be sure.

 

 

Mr. eightiron,

 

 

Then I tried a slo mo swing ala Mr. Hogan at George Coleman's and I was able to keep pressure on that point with my heel everting three to four inches off of the ground. In this same picture, Mr. Hogan's hands are just about to reach his right leg, the point where the pressure will be lost.

 

Just my two cents.

 

MH

 

But didn't Hogan always do this?:

 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8

 

Pre-secret Hogan is on the left, you can see that he keeps pressure on his right foot until his hands get into the hitting zone.

 

No Tiltswing. He sometimes left the right side too early. That was one of the sources of inconsistency. He overcame it by staying longer on the right side. He kept the hands lower via the pronation move on the backswing after 46. That move coincided with a longer more consistent stay on the ball of the right foot on the downswing. It was leaving early that was the problem. The solution is to not try to leave, but rather to turn the hips and let the last mass and pressure leave the ball of the right foot as the mass of the arms and hands enter the hitting area. Mass is moving into the leftleg. No question there. It has to. That is where he is heading, but the right leverage point is the security blanket in the equation. He is executing that turn of of the ball of the right foot. It all works together if the hands are kept low enough on the backswing.

 

Sevam1

[Tiltswing]

:man_in_love: Hogan at 1967 Masters in tournament...check out the right foot at p6 pretty far off the ground and check out the posting up throughI enlarged the picture on the left and what I noticed was that the inside ball of the foot, the joint connecting the foot and big toe, could easily still be retaining downward pressure with the ground. Unfortunately, the picture is blurry and face on, so it is hard to be sure.

 

 

Mr. eightiron,

 

 

Then I tried a slo mo swing ala Mr. Hogan at George Coleman's and I was able to keep pressure on that point with my heel everting three to four inches off of the ground. In this same picture, Mr. Hogan's hands are just about to reach his right leg, the point where the pressure will be lost.

 

Just my two cents.

 

MH

 

But didn't Hogan always do this?:

 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8

 

Pre-secret Hogan is on the left, you can see that he keeps pressure on his right foot until his hands get into the hitting zone.

 

 

Mr. eightiron,

 

I looked at the pre-secret video and tried to stop it at the same point as the still picture. Again due to picture quality I cannot say for certain, but the video appears to show Mr. Hogan more into his left side as he appears to be on the outside of his left foot as his hands near his right leg. The still photo seems to show a pretty flat left foot. Could moving to the left side too early and losing right foot pressure have contributed to the fallback?

 

I guess we will really never know for sure since Mr Hogan took it to the grave. However, it is certainly fun to observe, deduce and speculate!

 

Good day sir,

 

MH

 

 

:man_in_love: Hogan at 1967 Masters in tournament...check out the right foot at p6 pretty far off the ground and check out the posting up throughI enlarged the picture on the left and what I noticed was that the inside ball of the foot, the joint connecting the foot and big toe, could easily still be retaining downward pressure with the ground. Unfortunately, the picture is blurry and face on, so it is hard to be sure.

 

 

Mr. eightiron,

 

 

Then I tried a slo mo swing ala Mr. Hogan at George Coleman's and I was able to keep pressure on that point with my heel everting three to four inches off of the ground. In this same picture, Mr. Hogan's hands are just about to reach his right leg, the point where the pressure will be lost.

 

Just my two cents.

 

MH

 

But didn't Hogan always do this?:

 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8

 

Pre-secret Hogan is on the left, you can see that he keeps pressure on his right foot until his hands get into the hitting zone.

 

No Tiltswing. He sometimes left the right side too early. That was one of the sources of inconsistency. He overcame it by staying longer on the right side. He kept the hands lower via the pronation move on the backswing after 46. That move coincided with a longer more consistent stay on the ball of the right foot on the downswing. It was leaving early that was the problem. The solution is to not try to leave, but rather to turn the hips and let the last mass and pressure leave the ball of the right foot as the mass of the arms and hands enter the hitting area. Mass is moving into the leftleg. No question there. It has to. That is where he is heading, but the right leverage point is the security blanket in the equation. He is executing that turn of of the ball of the right foot. It all works together if the hands are kept low enough on the backswing.

 

Sevam1

 

I posted the pre-secret video not eightiron. I dunno, I'd think if Hogan got to his left side quickly there'd be no fall-back. I see an early COG transfer, to the left leg, in his post-secret swings. Him being able to get his weight left quicker and then rotate is probably what allowed him to stop falling back, same thing can be seen in the Schlee quote I posted. Pre-secret, Hogan gets weight right going back but waits a while to transfer left, doesn't know how to release lag, stays back and that results in the fall back we all see. Earlier COG transfer left lets him rotate hard left in the downswing to release the lag.

 

Early COG transfer, post-secret:

 

 

 

I disagree Sevam, that's not what Mr. Hogan did. He clearly got to the left leg faster post-secret, compare with his pre-secret swing, COG shift is much later:

 

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8

 

 

Ben Hogan pre-secret fall-back (late COG shift in downswing):

 

[fats]

:man_in_love: Hogan at 1967 Masters in tournament...check out the right foot at p6 pretty far off the ground and check out the posting up through

 

Those pics are great , now if we could see two frames prior to the first pic we could see the hands passing the right toe. That is when it is safe for the last of the pressure to leave the ball of the right foot. That is the point where there is no longer any great need to preserve the ability to push. Is it possible to post a frame or two just befor the hands pass the big toe and then this one where the hands have passed the big toe so that we can clearly see what is happening at that moment in the swing? It is an important moment in the swing so I think that it would be beneficial to all on the thread to view this.

 

 

Sevam1

 

What you are trying to see Sevam is what virtually all players do...it is not exclusive to Hogan at all. Now, in no way am I trying to discredit your personal discovery...maybe it was a weak point in your swing and it helped...people say it has helped them so it is a good thing IMOP...It seems a huge stretch to me to call a common position Hogan's Secret.