Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[magnum184]

Yep, one/two plane is a misleading name; there is no single or one plane in golf, there are always zillions of parallel different planes in a full swing. The term "one plane" means no more that just the lead arm at the top is not higher than the shoulder line at the top. Can be also lower, as in case of post-secret Hogan, but it is also not a single/one plane swing from a mechanical point of view.

 

Cheers

 

 

Yep. Awful name. Very misleading and confusing. It does an injustice to the plane of a golf swing, IMOP. Something that, if it were to be understood better, could really help a lot of golfers.

 

How's your plane?

Oh, I'm a ONE PLANE swinger. I'm always on plane. Just one plane.

 

How do you know?

Look at my arms. They're even with my shoulders.

 

But why is your clubhead all over the place?

Huh????????????????What do you mean?

 

Unfortunately, that is a true conversation, more or less.

[JD3]

I was just wondering, can anybody guess as to how many secrets do we think Hogan had? So far from what I remember it's the cupped wrist, pivot action, grip, foot torque with an extra spike, elbows pointing towards hips, shoot.....I guess I'll throw in Hogan's cap. There was something inside that cap........alien mind control? :nea:

Off the top of my head, here's what I recall seeing:

 

- tom bertrand claims to have special access from a hogan confidant named schlee, who says the secret was turning the left elbow to the left hip during impact;

- VJ Trolio seems to be saying his special access provided with him the info it was the frontward pressing of weight at the top that put 80% of his weight on front foot, remaining 20% on ball of rear foot (i think anyway, haven't read his book, won't either);

- Ballard claimed special access through sam byrd and he says hogan's key was always keeping the left elbow pointed at the ground at all points during the swing, like "thumbing a ride";

- Jim Hardy says he switched from an underhand to an over hand throwing motion by keeping his right elbow up and back at the start of the downswing and pronating his right forearm;

- of course there's the Life Magazine wrist cupping and bowing where many think Hogan bared it all;

- Sevam1 says it's the eversion torquing action of the rear foot and keeping the mass back until the hands start passing the rear foot in the downswing.

 

From the biography on hogan by Dodson, when polled by Life magazine in 1954, seven of hogan's contemporaries listed his "secret" as follows:

 

Walter Burkemo: dropping of hands at the top of the backswing

Fred Gronauer: his pivot

Mike Turnesa: a grip that allowed the face to open on the backswing preventing a hook

Claude Harmon: right hip turn

George Fazio: shoulders maintaining level attitude

Sarazen: he thinks better than anyone who ever played the game

Snead: didn't believe he had a secret, implying he was messing with everyone

 

I may have misstated some of the above views, but that's generally correct and I'm sure there are plenty of others. My personal favorite is Sevam1's.

 

Be interested if others could post views I've missed.

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

Hogan's secret...well T-Bird/Texan G/Burley etc etc..What's the Secret In Your Opinion?

 

 

If you are asking my idea to what Hogan did in achieving a movement in his swing that by far out preformed other players, then I would answer it was his pivot. To predict or conclude he had a special secret my thought would be there was no secret at all. Hogan made his movements different and that was the major difference. He found a way that worked for him in what he felt would keep the ball from going left.

 

But Hogan said you could see the secret if I tell you where to look!! Surely the pivot was obvious to everyone looking..so was the slight "cuo"...Was he right eye dominant post accident?

[eightiron]

I do not know if he had a right eye dominance pre accident but one would think no for the mentioning of it so much after. Referring back to the pivot you might be correct and by no means am I saying that I have the correct answer. That is IMHO the answer I choose to give and being that the golf swing is so fast anyone not on tour would not see this. Maybe this is the reasoning behind why so many professionals have commented on Hogan's swing and not to many outside the circle back then.

 

 

Well from info gathered it seems Hogan was left eye dominant but the Bus took care of that...so all of a sudden maybe he's looking from a different perspective out of the right eye and still manages not to show his face to the camera from a DTL view

[Swoosh-Thud]

Hogan's secret IMHO dealt with how he timed the release of the club in a non stall/constant rotation swing. Not what starts the pivot.

 

The right shoulder moves targetward so in essence making a counterclockwise rotation. One can start that rotation via two vectors:

1. the right leg pushes the bottom of the core to the left, starting rotation.

2. the left leg pushes the front of the core upwards starting rotation.

 

 

Sevam/DTS et al (as I see it) subscribe to a Ballard-like approach whereby the right pushes towards left, core rotates. Fine, it works, no big deal.

 

The left releasers say it is posting up of the left side, core rotates. (Slicefixer's two curve to one curve road [even Tiger says he snaps the left leg whenever he wants to hit the ball further.]) Fine it works, no big deal.

 

Hmmmm both feet in the dirt? They both work to start the pivot.

 

So what is it? Venturi, Burke, Harmon (though a touch DTL more than the others), Schlee (even a bit more DTL), Snead, DiVicenzo, Trevino, Daly etc all have the butt of the club go left like Hogan. Different swings, but left....

 

Hogan was 5'9" on a good day with long arms and a big a**. Yet he stood tall and had a low swing plane. So yes Hogan found a unique way to swing the club.

 

 

But the secret is not how he swung, but rather how he could swing without the ball going left.

 

 

 

It has absolutely nothing to do with how the pivot is started. Once your pivot is started with either method you can still go left. I think the left release is one more barrier, but even tossing that aside, what prevented him from going left once the throughswing was initiated?

 

 

 

One can argue pre/post secret pre/post accident pivots down to the minute details ad infinitum. Don't matter- what happens once the swing is started is the key.

 

But to the naked eye, the most obvious and glaring change pre/post is what he did with the upper body.

[downtoscratch]

He drank ginger ale so his fingers wouldn't get puffy.............. dts

[MGWP]

Jules Alexander once told me that he believed the whole "secret" was something suggested to Mr Hogan at one time...so Mr Hogan ran with the idea just to build up the aura and mystique...hence the books name.

 

He said the only secret was hard work and a "feeling" that came from within.

This I believe is closer to the truth than anything I have ever read or seen.

 

But I am in 100% agreement with the one plane /mutiple plane theories.

We swind around multiple pivot points which are not in alignement with one another..ie shoulders/hips/spine/..so how on earth can we ever be "one PLane" in a true biomechanical sense of the expression..

answer....we cannot!

[Dariusz J.]

I was just wondering, can anybody guess as to how many secrets do we think Hogan had? So far from what I remember it's the cupped wrist, pivot action, grip, foot torque with an extra spike, elbows pointing towards hips, shoot.....I guess I'll throw in Hogan's cap. There was something inside that cap........alien mind control? :nea:

Off the top of my head, here's what I recall seeing:

 

- tom bertrand claims to have special access from a hogan confidant named schlee, who says the secret was turning the left elbow to the left hip during impact;

- VJ Trolio seems to be saying his special access provided with him the info it was the frontward pressing of weight at the top that put 80% of his weight on front foot, remaining 20% on ball of rear foot (i think anyway, haven't read his book, won't either);

- Ballard claimed special access through sam byrd and he says hogan's key was always keeping the left elbow pointed at the ground at all points during the swing, like "thumbing a ride";

- Jim Hardy says he switched from an underhand to an over hand throwing motion by keeping his right elbow up and back at the start of the downswing and pronating his right forearm;

- of course there's the Life Magazine wrist cupping and bowing where many think Hogan bared it all;

- Sevam1 says it's the eversion torquing action of the rear foot and keeping the mass back until the hands start passing the rear foot in the downswing.

 

From the biography on hogan by Dodson, when polled by Life magazine in 1954, seven of hogan's contemporaries listed his "secret" as follows:

 

Walter Burkemo: dropping of hands at the top of the backswing

Fred Gronauer: his pivot

Mike Turnesa: a grip that allowed the face to open on the backswing preventing a hook

Claude Harmon: right hip turn

George Fazio: shoulders maintaining level attitude

Sarazen: he thinks better than anyone who ever played the game

Snead: didn't believe he had a secret, implying he was messing with everyone

 

I may have misstated some of the above views, but that's generally correct and I'm sure there are plenty of others. My personal favorite is Sevam1's.

 

Be interested if others could post views I've missed.

 

Cheers

 

Noone ever knew or knows Hogan's "secret" (maybe some were smart enough to identify some parts of the secret though - that is, in fact useless, because it lacks the sequence of events). When I can see a guy whose swing looks identical from all possible aspects of the biomechanical perspective, I'd be the first to say that this is the man who has found Mr.Hogan's "secret". Have not seen ANYONE so far. Period.

 

Cheers

 

Cheers

[juansky]

One plane two plane blah blah blah..I thought from another thread a while back it wasn't the best way to classify swings. Steep(or High) ...Shallow (or Low) seem to work much better.

 

Maybe if we had 3 legs, we would have a three plane swing. The only thing with a one plane swing is the Iron Byron.

[JD3]

Noone ever knew or knows Hogan's "secret" (maybe some were smart enough to identify some parts of the secret though - that is, in fact useless, because it lacks the sequence of events). When I can see a guy whose swing looks identical from all possible aspects of the biomechanical perspective, I'd be the first to say that this is the man who has found Mr.Hogan's "secret". Have not seen ANYONE so far. Period.

 

Cheers

 

Cheers

How about this guy? :secret:

 

front

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDiwpfQ6OvQ

 

back

 

top

[Poke]

Frank,

 

My interpretation of Sevam1's pivot is that it automates tuning into the right side then posting left; it is not based on pushing off of the right side. That is why Slice and Dan both say it is an excellent way of explaining what they are already teaching.

 

The CCW torque in the right leg--can be preset or not at address and is akin to Slice's turning into the right side—if maintained into transition with the left knee breaking towards the ball automates the backshift/counterfall.

 

The CW torque in the left leg automates the posting of the left hip on top of the left femur as weight shifts left.

 

You always keep some pressure/weight on the opposite side of the pivot until just before impact.

 

My interpretation of Slice's move is with the reverse k set-up you stay in much closer contact with the left post through the whole swing.

 

Both moves are Hoganesque, Sevam1 appears to have more lateral movement, where Slice's students seem to have less, but not perfectly Hogan.

 

I don't believe there is one secret. As I've stated before—selfishly, for me right now--the secret lies in how he set the club between transition and just before delivery, so he could swing through the ball with everything he had with no fear of going left.

Poke

[KevCarter]

How about this guy? :secret:

 

front

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDiwpfQ6OvQ

 

back

 

top

 

OhOh, that can of worms is open again! :lol:

 

Kevin

[juansky]

Off the top of my head, here's what I recall seeing:

 

- tom bertrand claims to have special access from a hogan confidant named schlee, who says the secret was turning the left elbow to the left hip during impact;

- VJ Trolio seems to be saying his special access provided with him the info it was the frontward pressing of weight at the top that put 80% of his weight on front foot, remaining 20% on ball of rear foot (i think anyway, haven't read his book, won't either);

- Ballard claimed special access through sam byrd and he says hogan's key was always keeping the left elbow pointed at the ground at all points during the swing, like "thumbing a ride";

- Jim Hardy says he switched from an underhand to an over hand throwing motion by keeping his right elbow up and back at the start of the downswing and pronating his right forearm;

- of course there's the Life Magazine wrist cupping and bowing where many think Hogan bared it all;

- Sevam1 says it's the eversion torquing action of the rear foot and keeping the mass back until the hands start passing the rear foot in the downswing.

 

From the biography on hogan by Dodson, when polled by Life magazine in 1954, seven of hogan's contemporaries listed his "secret" as follows:

 

Walter Burkemo: dropping of hands at the top of the backswing

Fred Gronauer: his pivot

Mike Turnesa: a grip that allowed the face to open on the backswing preventing a hook

Claude Harmon: right hip turn

George Fazio: shoulders maintaining level attitude

Sarazen: he thinks better than anyone who ever played the game

Snead: didn't believe he had a secret, implying he was messing with everyone

 

Snead and I think alike.....great quote! :drinks:

[MGWP]

jd

 

biomechanically replicate....absolutely..discover the secret within...no

but that is a cool model, thanks for sharing.

mwp

[PurePursuit]

Poke

"Both moves are Hoganesque, Sevam1 appears to have more lateral movement, where Slice's students seem to have less, but not perfectly Hogan."

 

I don't think so...the biggest difference is slices students come into impact with extreme leverage (like hogan)..have somewhat similar impact alignments..We've already put the Sevam looking like hogan thing to rest.

[eightiron]

Poke

"Both moves are Hoganesque, Sevam1 appears to have more lateral movement, where Slice's students seem to have less, but not perfectly Hogan."

 

I don't think so...the biggest difference is slices students come into impact with extreme leverage (like hogan)..have somewhat similar impact alignments..We've already put the Sevam looking like hogan thing to rest.

 

 

Poke here are 2 pictures to view...big difference ...Should I believe that the feet screwing is Hogan's secret..Or should I look elsewhere for the secret

[JD3]

Poke

"Both moves are Hoganesque, Sevam1 appears to have more lateral movement, where Slice's students seem to have less, but not perfectly Hogan."

 

I don't think so...the biggest difference is slices students come into impact with extreme leverage (like hogan)..have somewhat similar impact alignments..We've already put the Sevam looking like hogan thing to rest.

 

 

Poke here are 2 pictures to view...big difference ...Should I believe that the feet screwing is Hogan's secret..Or should I look elsewhere for the secret

I don't want to get into a protracted debate on this, but I will say that's a very unfair comparison. They are hitting different clubs, as far we know different shots and they have different body types. Most importantly, how quickly they release onto their left side post-impact is of little to no consequence as to what they were doing pre-impact.

 

If you really want to compare, critical points would be:

 

- top of backswing: in particular what are hips doing, what is spine angle and how is rear leg oriented;

- halfway down: where is rear elbow positioned vis a vis body, how much natural lag is created, what plane is shaft on, what is relationship of clubface to plane.

 

Look at this video Sevam made where he's trying to emulate Hogan if you want something to compare with ... it's in slow mo so you can easily stop at the critical times:

 

-

[eightiron]

Poke

"Both moves are Hoganesque, Sevam1 appears to have more lateral movement, where Slice's students seem to have less, but not perfectly Hogan."

 

I don't think so...the biggest difference is slices students come into impact with extreme leverage (like hogan)..have somewhat similar impact alignments..We've already put the Sevam looking like hogan thing to rest.

 

 

Poke here are 2 pictures to view...big difference ...Should I believe that the feet screwing is Hogan's secret..Or should I look elsewhere for the secret

I don't want to get into a protracted debate on this, but I will say that's a very unfair comparison. They are hitting different clubs, as far we know different shots and they have different body types. Most importantly, how quickly they release onto their left side post-impact is of little to no consequence as to what they were doing pre-impact.

 

If you really want to compare, critical points would be:

 

- top of backswing: in particular what are hips doing, what is spine angle and how is rear leg oriented;

- halfway down: where is elbow positioned vis a vis body, how much natural lag is created, what plane is shaft on, what is relationship of clubface to plane.

 

Look at this video Sevam made where he's trying to emulate Hogan if you want something to compare with ... it's in slow mo so you can easily stop at the critical times:

 

-

 

Well to be honest a frame by frame would show you how wrong you are about every single point of reference you just brought up but I will refrain from posting up the sequences and many differences. The point I was trying to allude to was how far Mr Hogan gets his belt buckle forward even past his left ankle...BTW That was a 5 Iron swing of Mr Hogan...amazing how far he gets on the left side

[JD3]

Well to be honest a frame by frame would show you how wrong you are about every single point of reference you just brought up but I will refrain from posting up the sequences and many differences. The point I was trying to allude to was how far Mr Hogan gets his belt buckle forward even past his left ankle...BTW That was a 5 Iron swing of Mr Hogan...amazing how far he gets on the left side

Would love to see your frame by frame analysis. Agree with belt buckle observation.

[eightiron]

Well to be honest a frame by frame would show you how wrong you are about every single point of reference you just brought up but I will refrain from posting up the sequences and many differences. The point I was trying to allude to was how far Mr Hogan gets his belt buckle forward even past his left ankle...BTW That was a 5 Iron swing of Mr Hogan...amazing how far he gets on the left side

Would love to see your frame by frame analysis. Agree with belt buckle observation.

 

 

Might open your eyes up

[Squish]

Mike Austin said that Hogan told him a story about a dream that Hogan had during his stay in hospital.

"In the dream, Hogan saw himself pivoting around his left foot and leg, just like Jay Broune...hit one superbly controlled power-fade shot after shot."

[juansky]

Poke

 

 

Poke here are 2 pictures to view...big difference ...Should I believe that the feet screwing is Hogan's secret..Or should I look elsewhere for the secret

 

The pic on the left, is that what you call humping the goat? :cheesy: I need to start practicing that move.

[JD3]

Poke

 

 

Poke here are 2 pictures to view...big difference ...Should I believe that the feet screwing is Hogan's secret..Or should I look elsewhere for the secret

 

The pic on the left, is that what you call humping the goat? :cheesy: I need to start practicing that move.

Don't forget Sevam is Canadian so that's a caribou he's humping. Much larger animal than a goat, need to approach from different angle.

http://www.funkman.org/animal/mammal/caribou.jpg

Fyi ... watch out for the antlers too! :drag:

[TheNatural72]

Does anybody else think this Eightiron guy has literally nothing to offer this forum except belittling other people?? There are a lot of posters who offer at least something positive from time to time, but not Eightiron. As a matter of fact I have yet to see any new or enlightening information come from him at all.

 

Eight, any of us can go out and read golf books and study videos and then come to the forum and repeat what we have seen, heard or read. Dude, you really act like a know it all, but offer nothing of substance. You need a reality check bro..

[iteachgolf]

Poke

 

 

Poke here are 2 pictures to view...big difference ...Should I believe that the feet screwing is Hogan's secret..Or should I look elsewhere for the secret

 

The pic on the left, is that what you call humping the goat? :cheesy: I need to start practicing that move.

 

I wouldn't say Hogan ever humped the goat. I'd say he did release the forward tilt of his hips, bu this is very different than humping the goat. I wouldn't say I've seen a Hogan swing at least post accident in which he early extends.

[juansky]

Does anybody else think this Eightiron guy has literally nothing to offer this forum except belittling other people?? There are a lot of posters who offer at least something positive from time to time, but not Eightiron. As a matter of fact I have yet to see any new or enlightening information come from him at all.

 

Eight, any of us can go out and read golf books and study videos and then come to the forum and repeat what we have seen, heard or read. Dude, you really act like a know it all, but offer nothing of substance. You need a reality check bro..

 

 

[PurePursuit]

I think he can offer up quality observations but thats really irrelevant..There are lots of guyskys on this board who might not offer up a lot but they are always welcome to share and post. The whole Sevam hogan comparison is off limits guys, its already been covered (He's more Moe..his impact (The MOST IMPORTANT position in golf) is nothing like hogans). So back to the secret. Can someone explain the belt buckle deal and what I should be gathering from that picture?

[PurePursuit]

HAHAHHA..Hogan "Humping the goat" post secret..Thats funny...

[juansky]

I think he can offer up quality observations but thats really irrelevant..There are lots of guyskys on this board who might not offer up a lot but they are always welcome to share and post. The whole Sevam hogan comparison is off limits guys, its already been covered (He's more Moe..his impact (The MOST IMPORTANT position in golf) is nothing like hogans). So back to the secret. Can someone explain the belt buckle deal and what I should be gathering from that picture?

 

Guyskys.........hmmm? sounds like a pun buddy boy. It's okay though, I'll let you have a cheap shot once in a while. :beach:

[TheNatural72]

Poke

"Both moves are Hoganesque, Sevam1 appears to have more lateral movement, where Slice's students seem to have less, but not perfectly Hogan."

 

I don't think so...the biggest difference is slices students come into impact with extreme leverage (like hogan)..have somewhat similar impact alignments..We've already put the Sevam looking like hogan thing to rest.

 

 

Poke here are 2 pictures to view...big difference ...Should I believe that the feet screwing is Hogan's secret..Or should I look elsewhere for the secret

 

 

Well to be honest a frame by frame would show you how wrong you are about every single point of reference you just brought up but I will refrain from posting up the sequences and many differences. The point I was trying to allude to was how far Mr Hogan gets his belt buckle forward even past his left ankle...BTW That was a 5 Iron swing of Mr Hogan...amazing how far he gets on the left side

Would love to see your frame by frame analysis. Agree with belt buckle observation.

 

 

Might open your eyes up

 

 

Ok,

I am ready to have my eyes opened. I am eagerly awaiting your side by side analysis. Please add a third picture of Moe Norman to the comparison if you would. If I recall Sevam never said he swung just like Hogan, he said he swung like a Moe Norman/Hogan/ hybrid of sorts. I think he certainly does, and Yes both Ben and Moe advocated using the right foot . So please get to work on your analysis..

 

 

About the right foot and Sevam's calling it the secret. In Ben Hogans Power Golf, on page 26 and 27 you will find that Ben talks about the Right foot..I will quote it...

 

" When Playing a tee shot, a fairway wood shot or a long iron shot I get a little something extra into it by the manner in which I utilize my right foot. Some say that I dig my right toe in when hitting tee shot, but that description isn't correct because it isn't my toe I dig into the ground.

 

At address for the above-mentioned shots I dig in with the cleats on the inside edge of the sole of my right shoe. This gives me a feeling of solidity to hit from and as a result I get more distance by giving a little shove with my right foot as the club approaches the ball.

 

Yet I don't dig in so solidly that my foot is ever locked to the ground. Nor does my "digging in" interfere with the proper motion of the feet and the shifting of my weight during the swing. Maybe it will take you a little time to get into the use of the little wrinkle I have described above, but it is the little variations which give me my extra power"

 

Right there in Power Golf on page 26-27.