Tips="Championship Tees" ...not "MEN'S" tees, right?

[ezra76]

The tips are black. I play them in the evenings when I play with a kid who is a Div 1 player. Only difference is one par 4 I hit 3W instead of 5W off the tee and the par 3's are 10yds. longer. Every other hole the blacks and blues are the same tees on the front. On the back a few are 10yds. longer but they are elevated more so the distance is the same. On the finishing par 5 I actually hit it longer off the blacks since they are only 5yds. back but 10ft. higher up.

 

Seems to be like that at all the courses that have champ. tees. The blacks are only really longer on the par 3's.

[frozen_rope]

Actually, relatively few players have ever struck a pitching wedge truly solid, or for that matter struck a putt truly square-solid.

However, since there is a large margin for error with short irons and putters, people mistakenly think the "playable" mishits they make are actually solid shots.

When I suggest a player develop and groove his swing to strike solid shots with wedges and short irons ; I mean solid, truly square ball contact. This is much more challenging to do than most amateurs realize. Without a doubt if a player is actually striking solid short irons then he can pick up a fairway wood or driver and get excellent results.

 

 

If that were truly the case, than anyone who could hit a solid pitching wedge could hit a 48" LDA driver no problem. As everyone with any knowledge of the game knows, that just isnt true. Trying to justify a statement such as people who cannot break 90 should play only par 3 courses just isnt going to happen.

[gjjdemarco]

From what I understand, handicap/gender/age has nothing to do with which tees you should be hitting from.

 

I think the last place I saw this formula was Golf Digest (but I have seen it in a bunch of places), but you should take your average 5-iron distance and multiply it by 36. And you should be playing the tees that represent that total distance.

 

ex. If you hit your 5i 170, that would be 6120. Whichever teebox is closest to that yardage, that's the one you should be playing from.

 

Naturally, low cappers can generally hit the ball farther/better/more consistently than the highs, so GENERALLY lows would play 'longer' tees than a 20hcp, but that is not always the case.

 

If a 20hcp can beat the $*!^ out of it, he should play longer tees than the 4hcp who is right down the middle, but only 150 w/ a 5i.

 

Pace of play is the only issue here. If you play the tees that your YARDAGE says you should, and as long as you keep up pace, you should finish on time. ex. If you are a 20hcp and SHOULD be playing from the blues b/c you hit very long, then what would be the difference if you hit it in the woods from the blues or the whites? Nothing. Just keep up pace and keep playing the blues, that's where you should be.

 

The colors began to represent names almost as stereotypes as to the people who played to those distances. I have played with plenty 'seniors' and 'juniors' who can hit a hell of a lot farther than me, but I had to play from the 'mens' while my 15yr old nephew smashes it from the 'juniors' about 85yds past me. :shout: He still brings that up. Punk.

[Pepperturbo]

Let's put some perspective to this. There’s a point where handicap, tee color or label plays second to actual length of the course and tees. I play in multiple states and to this day have only encountered a few hacks playing from 7000+ tees’; course I typically choose difficult sloped 135+ and in some cases over 139 because I like the challenge. Hacks don’t typically choose long tee’s or choose difficult courses.

 

I frequent a 75/145 championship tour qualifying track and typically play Blue tee’s which are 73/139 but venture to the back now and again which is over 7000yds. Anyways, I seldom encounter anyone choosing the back tees but do regularly on the Blue tees.

 

When I walk up after introductions I typically ask if they are familiar with the course; 95% of the time the answer is NO; that’s when I ask what motivated them to pick the blue tees’ answer is the yardage of 6500+. Not once have I heard anyone reference the challenge or difficulty. Fact is most folks don’t understand the rating system, while many don’t even know about its influence until they've played plenty of courses

 

Their thinking is based on some internal mechanism that says anything over “X” is to long and anything under “X” won’t be challenging enough. I’ll watch and listen closely and note what’s in their bag. Contrary to the implications surrounding profiling people, it has its advantages. Its not below me to choose to announce my index and walk up to the White tee’s 71/131; saying I want to be easy on myself and practice my iron game.

 

After looking at each other for a few moments, most of the time they follow immediately, some hang on for a few holes but eventually move forward. Of those that have hung back on the Blue tees, most look :angry: on every hole and card 90-low 100 scores walking off 18 :o while saying their a mid-index; yea, right.

 

Using my own measuring instincts seems +/- 6600yds is when average Joe hacker lets his ego walk him to the tips. We hear the word “tips” or “championship” tees regularly here and elsewhere. What amuses me is even people I know talk about playing the tips, when in fact their really talking about 6000-6200yd tees. Hence my reasoning this subject is really about how long the course is, seldom how difficult it is.

 

My advice, choose harder and longer courses and you’re less likely to walk on the 1st tee and meet Mr. Hacker. If you want to banter about a low index but want to play mildly easy and moderate length tracks you have pay the consequences with a :D

[noahwein]

Hackers scoring 100 are not having fun on the golf course, or at least not near as much as they would have with some control over their golf ball.

 

 

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this website. I scored a 112 today at the course in 4.5 hours and I had a blast. Deal with it.

[MoreGolfLessWork]

I played Doral (Blue Monster) a couple of years ago with a couple of blokes called Mike...easy to remember :)... they played off the front tees, I played off the back, we all had fun and it was challenging. Frankly I don't care which tees you play from as long as you enjoy yourself....as for the time it takes for a round, well course officials are trying to cram on so many people on their courses now that a 5 hour round on a good course is getting to be the norm.

 

If you don't have the game to play off the back and you want to, go for it....you pay for the round, and generally you pay a lot of money so you should get to play the course how you want....but you must be respectful of others on the golf course (this is my only real gripe on the golf course...people that have no respect for others around them).

[Pepperturbo]

people mistakenly think the "playable" mishits they make are actually solid shots.

 

When I suggest a player develop and groove his swing to strike solid shots with wedges and short irons ; I mean solid, truly square ball contact. This is much more challenging to do than most amateurs realize. Without a doubt if a player is actually striking solid short irons then he can pick up a fairway wood or driver and get excellent results.

 

My intention is not to hijack this thread... just to say the bold line is exactly what I think comes from playing game improvement CB's; what people think is happening is NOT.

 

They owe inherent forgiveness and the numbing enhancements of game improvement CB heads for shots going straight; NOT improved ball striking skills. As for your last line, you're reasoning is flawed. If it weren't flawed those able to strike an 8i well (which I've seen) should be able to strike a 3i just as well, many can't.

 

As for your earlier comment about people carding 100 not having fun; you're applying how you'd feel shooting 100 NOT how they actually feel which is frustration and challenge wrapped in having fun.

 

A good friend of mine posts over 100 when he want's to play from the blue tee's... Its not likely he'll ever be any better then he is at the game; but he has fun facing the challenges.

[mantan]

Let's put some perspective to this. There’s a point where handicap, tee color or label plays second to actual length of the course and tees. I play in multiple states and to this day have only encountered a few hacks playing from 7000+ tees’; course I typically choose difficult sloped 135+ and in some cases over 139 because I like the challenge. Hacks don’t typically choose long tee’s or choose difficult courses.

 

I frequent a 75/145 championship tour qualifying track and typically play Blue tee’s which are 73/139 but venture to the back now and again which is over 7000yds. Anyways, I seldom encounter anyone choosing the back tees but do regularly on the Blue tees.

 

When I walk up after introductions I typically ask if they are familiar with the course; 95% of the time the answer is NO; that’s when I ask what motivated them to pick the blue tees’ answer is the yardage of 6500+. Not once have I heard anyone reference the challenge or difficulty. Fact is most folks don’t understand the rating system, while many don’t even know about its influence until they've played plenty of courses

 

Their thinking is based on some internal mechanism that says anything over “X” is to long and anything under “X” won’t be challenging enough. I’ll watch and listen closely and note what’s in their bag. Contrary to the implications surrounding profiling people, it has its advantages. Its not below me to choose to announce my index and walk up to the White tee’s 71/131; saying I want to be easy on myself and practice my iron game.

 

After looking at each other for a few moments, most of the time they follow immediately, some hang on for a few holes but eventually move forward. Of those that have hung back on the Blue tees, most look :angry: on every hole and card 90-low 100 scores walking off 18 :o while saying their a mid-index; yea, right.

 

Using my own measuring instincts seems +/- 6600yds is when average Joe hacker lets his ego walk him to the tips. We hear the word “tips” or “championship” tees regularly here and elsewhere. What amuses me is even people I know talk about playing the tips, when in fact their really talking about 6000-6200yd tees. Hence my reasoning this subject is really about how long the course is, seldom how difficult it is.

 

My advice, choose harder and longer courses and you’re less likely to walk on the 1st tee and meet Mr. Hacker. If you want to banter about a low index but want to play mildly easy and moderate length tracks you have pay the consequences with a :D

 

 

'6500 yard guy' is my pet peeve. Scorecard yardage is a HORRIBLE indicator of how a course will play. How could you compare a 340 yard par 4 with a narrow landing area and shallow well protected green to a 420 yard downhill hole with a no trouble?

 

For most golfers slope is a MUCH better indicator than length (or even rating) of the right tee box. On our annual trip to Myrtle we always argued over which boxes to play. Many of the courses have up to 5 tee boxes with varying colors/names.

 

The first couple of years we foolishly tried to play to the 6500 yard or even worse (one tee from the tips) rule. The problem was there is a big of difference between a 126 and 136 slope course. Finally we got smart and started for a 'target slope' between 124-129. We found that gave us a more consistent challenge each day. And believe me, it was more fun playing a 6200 yard 126 slope course than trying to play the 6600 yard 136 yard course we used to gravitate to.

 

I also agree with above that ego comes into play when you have golfers of varying skills. Unfortunately it's more common for a higher handicap player to 'go along' and play more course than they want than for a stronger player to suck it up and play from a shorter tee for the day.

[Pepperturbo]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am glad :clapping: you and your friends choose tees based on slope, not yardage so much. I wish more golfers would or could realize the benefits of slope ratings, they'd have more fun.

[Blues Golfer]

the illusion is very simple.

 

Playing from the championship tees when you are overmatched for them, is not at all like playing from those tees if you are a true scratch golfer. Yes both players are putting a tee in the ground at the same place. But the similarity ends when those two players address the ball.

 

My index is a low five, and I don't kid myself that when I'm hitting a five iron 185 yards and my plus handicap friend is hitting a 7, that we are playing the same game. We aren't, and we both know it.

 

Nicklaus knew it when he saw Tiger play, and he was man enough to admit it.

[hack]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am glad :clapping: you and your friends choose tees based on slope, not yardage so much. I wish more golfers would or could realize the benefits of slope ratings, they'd have more fun.

 

The last Golf Digest that had the Hot List in it had a pretty generalized guide for selecting the slope for the tees you should play based on your handicap. The breakdown is as follows:

 

Handicap / Slope

Plus / 146+

0-5 / 140-145

6-10 / 135-139

11-15 / 130-134

16-20 / 125-129

21-25 / 120-124

26-30 / 115-119

31-36 / 110-114

37+ / 109 or less

 

Seems to be a pretty fair...

[Large David Hammer]

Not feeling attacked at all...and thanks for the clarification. No worries. :)

 

I'm sorry I mentioned the speed/pace factor at all, it was only a tiny portion of my objection...I play muni's with rounds so slow, the pace that the people around you are keeping, is almost always irrelevant. Slow or fast play was a minor concern to me, it is it's own issue.

 

I agree that a shorter hitter who hits it straight is way better than a shorter hitter who doesn't, especially from the back tees...I was much more interested in why players on this forum thought the "back" tees had become the "men's" tees. I would say that if you play a "normal" sized golf course and never have anything other than hybrids and woods, with an occasional mid or short iron, into the greens, move up a tee! No?

 

There are a lot of short hitters, who are not straight hitters (handicap does matter to a degree, as it reflects the likelihood of your hitting a well-struck shot frequently), who happen to be men, and who play the back tees, who IMO, shouldn't... and I can only assume it is because they think those are the men's tees.

 

Since when are the back tees the "men's"?

[hbear]

The tips are black. I play them in the evenings when I play with a kid who is a Div 1 player. Only difference is one par 4 I hit 3W instead of 5W off the tee and the par 3's are 10yds. longer. Every other hole the blacks and blues are the same tees on the front. On the back a few are 10yds. longer but they are elevated more so the distance is the same. On the finishing par 5 I actually hit it longer off the blacks since they are only 5yds. back but 10ft. higher up.

 

Seems to be like that at all the courses that have champ. tees. The blacks are only really longer on the par 3's.

Odd as over here there are pretty big differences between the champ and "blue/silver" tees. At our course one of the par 5s tacks on 110 yards, about 15-20 yards on the par 3s and a about 15-30 yards on the par 4s. Might not seem like much but that's 1-3 club difference, and puts a bit more stress on a good tee shot. There is a pretty big difference between "not quite catching" a tee shot but still having 8I in....and doing the same but having a 5I in.

And most courses here are along those same lines.

 

'6500 yard guy' is my pet peeve. Scorecard yardage is a HORRIBLE indicator of how a course will play. How could you compare a 340 yard par 4 with a narrow landing area and shallow well protected green to a 420 yard downhill hole with a no trouble?

 

For most golfers slope is a MUCH better indicator than length (or even rating) of the right tee box. On our annual trip to Myrtle we always argued over which boxes to play. Many of the courses have up to 5 tee boxes with varying colors/names.

 

The first couple of years we foolishly tried to play to the 6500 yard or even worse (one tee from the tips) rule. The problem was there is a big of difference between a 126 and 136 slope course. Finally we got smart and started for a 'target slope' between 124-129. We found that gave us a more consistent challenge each day. And believe me, it was more fun playing a 6200 yard 126 slope course than trying to play the 6600 yard 136 yard course we used to gravitate to.

 

I also agree with above that ego comes into play when you have golfers of varying skills. Unfortunately it's more common for a higher handicap player to 'go along' and play more course than they want than for a stronger player to suck it up and play from a shorter tee for the day.

Length is a good place to start, then go hole by hole on the par 4s to get a sense of how "long" the course plays. If you see a lot of 420-430 yard par 4s and short par 3s and 5s....it's going to play a lot tougher than a couse with 360-380 yard par 4s and most of the length made up on the par 5s and 3s.

Slope and rating are also good indicators....I normally go on course rating as slope seems to be more an indicator for the "toughness" of a course for a higher handicapper....while rating seems to be better for the scratch/low capper.

 

I've seen courses with a 126 slope rating at 7100 yards....trust me if you aren't a longish hitter 7100 yards is a pretty good chunk of real estate. On that note I've also played courses at 6700 yards and 134 slope that didn't seem all that difficult to me.

[Pepperturbo]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am glad :clapping: you and your friends choose tees based on slope, not yardage so much. I wish more golfers would or could realize the benefits of slope ratings, they'd have more fun.

 

The last Golf Digest that had the Hot List in it had a pretty generalized guide for selecting the slope for the tees you should play based on your handicap. The breakdown is as follows:

 

Handicap / Slope

Plus / 146+

0-5 / 140-145

6-10 / 135-139

11-15 / 130-134

16-20 / 125-129

21-25 / 120-124

26-30 / 115-119

31-36 / 110-114

37+ / 109 or less

 

Seems to be a pretty fair...

 

Great information, and I agree. I wonder how GD came up with this? Golfers with common sense are likely to adhere to similar choices; if only the one's that should use it did, then maybe pace of play would somewhat improve.

 

What perplexes me I have 20+ index good friends that should regularly play 120-124 range. When they do I can see they enjoy the round more, while I prefer 135-145 range... When I play with them on the 120-124 range I go brain dead, and done to often it derogatorily affects my index. When they play the course of my choosing I am bothered watching them struggle. Like me, they don't complain because of the camaraderie, and they don't slow play - still, it can be ugly to watch at times.

 

None of the holes are reachable for them in regulation. At times they have a look of desperation and frustration on their faces knowing their not breaking 100; as opposed to the easier courses their in the low 90's, and maybe a break to 80's because most holes are reachable in regulation.

 

Sorry for the blabber folks - but its a challenging subject I face every weekend.

[Pepperturbo]

I agree that a shorter hitter who hits it straight is way better than a shorter hitter who doesn't, especially from the back tees...I was much more interested in why players on this forum thought the "back" tees had become the "men's" tees. I would say that if you play a "normal" sized golf course and never have anything other than hybrids and woods, with an occasional mid or short iron, into the greens, move up a tee! No?

 

There are a lot of short hitters, who are not straight hitters (handicap does matter to a degree, as it reflects the likelihood of your hitting a well-struck shot frequently), who happen to be men, and who play the back tees, who IMO, shouldn't... and I can only assume it is because they think those are the men's tees.

 

Since when are the back tees the "men's"?

 

You're last question is a good one.

 

Could it be tee choice brings about a subconscious deeper question "do I have it?" or maybe its more tied into "David and Goliath" feelings that in normal every day life would never be considered due to consequences. It has to be something like that since the people that choose the "men's" tees, and equate them to the back tees don't have the game, seldom have the temperament and that brings into question their lack judgment by choosing the back tee.

[larrybud]

Hackers scoring 100 are not having fun on the golf course, or at least not near as much as they would have with some control over their golf ball.

LOL! Glad to know you can read their mood from here, rope!

 

They play once a week. They love going out with their buddies and talking trash, having a couple of beers. They couldn't care less what they shoot. Sometimes, (GASP), they even shoot in the HIGH 50's!!! OMG!!!

 

My Dad is 80, breaks 50 maybe 5 times a year on a 6000 yard muni. He couldn't be having more fun. Oh, and we play in under 4 hours with our foursome.

[larrybud]

you're right it was an arbitrary number that i picked out of the air, but i thought about it for a little... if you can only muster 200 yards off the tee, playing 6800-7200 yards is going to be a tough task... at least the 30-40 extra yards is going to make it a little more enjoyable even if both players hit it dead straight most of the time...

 

everyone is going to do what they want... just expect to have people behind you to be annoyed...

If I'm waiting for the group ahead of me, there's no reason anybody is getting annoyed.

 

And on the other hand, if I don't have to wait for the group in front of me, I'll be able to hit me 2nd shot and get out of the way of the people behind me faster.

[Large David Hammer]

I agree with LarryBud about breaking 100. If it requires breaking 100 to "enjoy" golf, then until a couple years ago, I was becoming obsessed, buying gear, playing as often as possible, and apparently hating every minute of it.

 

I remember when my handicap dipped into the mid-20's (meaning I was finally & regularly, breaking 100) and thinking..."Boy I'm glad I can enjoy this now. I was eff-ing miserable!"

 

;)

[TU_Owl]

yeah, double bogey or a bogey when trying to break 100 was not miserable, compared to a double bogey on 17th hole that puts an end to a round in the 70s. ><

[roll - gybe]

What's a hack in this discussion. I think 15 was mentioned.

18 handicappers were banished to par 3 courses.

 

What is the average handicap? 15?

And what half of men players have handicaps (or less)?

 

So you are saying that fewer than a quarter of men can play the blues?

40% aren't even allowed to come to the course?

 

That's pretty silly.

 

And as far as going to a new course, sure I will look at yardage. Generally it is a pretty good way to go. If I have heard the place is rough and the tips are 6300 yards I will scratch my head. However, if we are talking modern, Fazio-type course, I'm probably gonna get started with my yardage...

 

And I think the recommendations are pretty silly...

 

Also, my friends who shoot 100 have a hell of a time out there. Not everyone is driven to succeed. I work with those guys, I don't have to hang out with them when it is Miller time.

[Sean2]

the average golfer shoots 100.

the average golfer who keeps a handicap index is a 16.

the average golfer hits his drives 197 yards.

 

this is according to golf guru frank thomas and a study he did.

[BALLARD2]

i honestly don't know why courses put "the back tees" out on the weekends?

 

the average guy is not gonna go play behind the longest tees marked...

 

so put them out at the "2 ups",

 

most guys will go there and if you really want and know enough you can walk to the "backs"

 

it would help the courses get more rounds in and help speed up the pace!

 

at least i think it would :tongue:

[Pepperturbo]

Yesterday I stood watching 4 mid-late 30's guys tee off in front of us from the 6800yd 139 sloped tees. You can't imagine how :fool: ish it looked. After the third hole it was clear :boredom: 3 guys in that group shouldn't even be on that type of course, even the White tee's are 131. We waited for them to retee and hunt for balls on darn near every shot. I could hear one guy comment as he walked off the tee after putting 2 in the drink, doesn't seem that hard. Talk about poor judgement.

 

There's a part of me that understands wanting the Full Monte effect of Blue tee's because I like difficult challenges. But, for God sakes the one decent player in the group should have used some common sense. It wasn't so much the carry yardages at issue, it was they had absolutely NO directional control, and one guy just couldn't hit the ball. They slowed the whole field behind.

[Blues Golfer]

Yesterday I stood watching 4 mid-late 30's guys tee off in front of us from the 6800yd 139 sloped tees. You can't imagine how :fool: ish it looked. After the third hole it was clear :boredom: 3 guys in that group shouldn't even be on that type of course, even the White tee's are 131. We waited for them to retee and hunt for balls on darn near every shot. I could hear one guy comment as he walked off the tee after putting 2 in the drink, doesn't seem that hard. Talk about poor judgement.

 

There's a part of me that understands wanting the Full Monte effect of Blue tee's because I like difficult challenges. But, for God sakes the one decent player in the group should have used some common sense. It wasn't so much the carry yardages at issue, it was they had absolutely NO directional control, and one guy just couldn't hit the ball. They slowed the whole field behind.

Stories like this are why I need to be medicated. This isn't golf, this is using the golf course as a driving range. This is the reason so many people, including myself for a time, finally just quit playing.

 

Five minutes on the driving range, and any professional worth his salary could simply say "the driving range is over there. Here is a free token for a bag of practice balls, we look forward to your business when you've had time to practice. I give free five minute lessons on the driving range every Wednesday for 90 minutes. You can use the practice areas all you want for just one range token. We don't charge much for personal lessons, have a nice day."

 

LET THEM GO somewhere else with their bruised egos. Like to a ++++ie bar or something. They can spend their 45 dollars one at a time.

 

I await the day that a course accepts the challenge of creating their own niche market that commands loyalty and a premium price from a dedicated clientele of GOLFER that would never play anywhere else because they love playing at a place where

 

- everyone they are ever paired up with can swing the club, chip, and putt with enough skill to play...by the rules.

- actually plays by the rules

- within 4.5 hours.

- practices once in awhile

- knows the basic etiquette, and even some not so basic.

- is not on the course to drink a 12 pack.

 

Notice that no where did I say "can keep up with the group ahead." Because if that was really important to the speed of play, there would be no speed of play problem in America. The problem is not whether someone is able to KEEP up, it's being able to SET the pace of play.

 

The only way a course can be sure that play is set at 4 hours, and stays that way, is by testing the competence of the golfers. By the time a marshal could remove someone for dragging down the pace, it would be too late.

 

One single hacker that tees off between 8 and 9 in the morning, that does not finish until 1:30 or 2:30, costs everyone who plays that day an enjoyable round. Is that fair to the 200 golfers that teed off later?

 

The fact that the couse even adopts that policy, means half the problem goes away all by itself. A few would fear the rejection and never try, the others would try once and then stomp off to somewhere else. A few would pay for a lesson just to see if they could pass, which means they probably would pass, they just need the confidence boost.