Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[funkyfedora]

Honestly. No. The hotspots you speak of are minute and I highly doubt that they make you miss putts. But if you would like to blame missing putts on a "hot spot" by all means. Go ahead. I believe that Ping has started milling putters because it is both better on the workforce and like their site says. It is precise. Milled putters are more alike then a cast putter so now they can have stricter specs before they leave the shop floor.

[dpark]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

At this rate it may catch up to Robopti's Cobra L4V thread....

[stage1350]

But if Tiger's putter is cast then skim milled, doesn't that mean that his Scotty has hot spots too?

You can have the same problem in a milled putter if there's a void or defect in the billet.

[biscuity]

[quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856312' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:10 PM']Honestly. No. The hotspots you speak of are minute and I highly doubt that they make you miss putts. But if you would like to blame missing putts on a "hot spot" by all means. Go ahead. I believe that Ping has started milling putters because it is both better on the workforce and like their site says. It is precise. [b]Milled putters are more alike then a cast putter so now they can have stricter specs before they leave the shop floor.[/b][/quote]


Therefore, they are an improvement over the original Anser.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1856358' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:34 PM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1856335' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:19 PM']But if Tiger's putter is cast then skim milled, doesn't that mean that his Scotty has hot spots too?

You can have the same problem in a milled putter if there's a void or defect in the billet.[/quote]


The key word is "if" and implying that it is a cast head that's been skim milled is pure speculation. Site your source.
[/quote]
I can only assume that since he did say [i]"if"[/i] he doesn't have a source and he didn't present it as fact. In fact, I sort of think it was more tongue in cheek than anything...

[quote name='biscuity' post='1856365' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:36 PM'][quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856312' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:10 PM']Honestly. No. The hotspots you speak of are minute and I highly doubt that they make you miss putts. But if you would like to blame missing putts on a "hot spot" by all means. Go ahead. I believe that Ping has started milling putters because it is both better on the workforce and like their site says. It is precise. [b]Milled putters are more alike then a cast putter so now they can have stricter specs before they leave the shop floor.[/b][/quote]


Therefore, they are an improvement over the original Anser.
[/quote]
From a manufacturing point of view. Being all the same doesn't necessarily mean better, and he still wasn't the first.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1856304' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:08 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1856269' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:54 PM'][quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856255' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:45 PM']Yet Scotty claims to have improved on the designs. [url="http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1025756/1/index.htm"]SI Vault[/url][/quote]

You don't think milling from a block of steel isn't an improvement on cast putters with hotspots? Sounds to me like Ping themselves have admitted that milling a putter is an improvement.

From Ping's website:

[i]The Redwood Series pays tribute to the home of the original PING putter—Redwood City, California. It was in Karsten Solheim's garage that his equipment revolution was born and with it came the [b]commitment to quality and innovation found in this 100% milled putter series[/b].[/i]

and

[i]With models featuring both traditional and non-traditional looks, there’s a PING putter that can help you save strokes on the green. Each putter is designed to be custom-fit to your individual putting stroke. PING provides putters featuring improved forgiveness, feel, and alignment options. So whether you prefer the feel of an insert putter, the feedback of a steel faced putter, or the [b]precision of a 100% milled putter[/b], PING has the technology you are looking for.[/i]
[/quote]
I agree that milled is better than cast, but that is an opinion, and that is certainly NOT what Ping is saying. The first paragraph is only saying that the commitments that Karsten had when he started have continued in the Redwood series, and the second is simply saying the putter is a precise tool. It isn't a comment on any other product

Of course, Mills was milling putters before Scotty was born. It wasn't an idea that Scotty came up with.
[/quote]

Please read what I responded to. I realize Mills was milling putters long before Scotty.....but the poster was talking about Karsten's designs. I don't believe Mills ever tried to recreate any of them, but could be wrong. Jay?

[b]precision of a 100% milled putter[/b]

Why say that if all putters, cast or milled are as precise? That would be redundant. It is certainly saying that a 100% milled putter is more precise. Either way, NOBODY can deny that quality control is much easier with a CNC machine over a cast. I'm sure Venno would be happy to comment on that!

Don't squawk at me, I'm just quoting the Ping website. Furthermore, Karsten IS the man. We owe a lot to him, incredible visionary. If my house is burning, I'm grabbing my Ping Eye 2 becu's. Ripping Ping definitely is NOT my point, they make great gear....my point is simply that there was room for improvement on Karsten's original designs from a manufacturing standpoint. Nothing more, nothing less.

[CPSOX]

Not to mention, Dalton Daves (one of Scotty's US distributors) has one of the largest, if not THE largest, Ping collection in the world besides the Solheim company. I think Scotty's relationship w/ Dalton with his Ping collection is pretty good proof of the respect he has for Karsten and the company.

[biscuity]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1856368' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:37 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1856358' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:34 PM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1856335' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:19 PM']But if Tiger's putter is cast then skim milled, doesn't that mean that his Scotty has hot spots too?

You can have the same problem in a milled putter if there's a void or defect in the billet.[/quote]


The key word is "if" and implying that it is a cast head that's been skim milled is pure speculation. Site your source.
[/quote]
I can only assume that since he did say [i]"if"[/i] he doesn't have a source and he didn't present it as fact. In fact, I sort of think it was more tongue in cheek than anything...

[quote name='biscuity' post='1856365' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:36 PM'][quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856312' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:10 PM']Honestly. No. The hotspots you speak of are minute and I highly doubt that they make you miss putts. But if you would like to blame missing putts on a "hot spot" by all means. Go ahead. I believe that Ping has started milling putters because it is both better on the workforce and like their site says. It is precise. [b]Milled putters are more alike then a cast putter so now they can have stricter specs before they leave the shop floor.[/b][/quote]


Therefore, they are an improvement over the original Anser.
[/quote]
From a manufacturing point of view. Being all the same doesn't necessarily mean better, and he still wasn't the first.
[/quote]

Asking if a manufacturer was the first to introduce a feature is completely different than asking if a product is an improvement over an older design.

[funkyfedora]

Scotty didn't improve on the design... He improved on the manufacturing process... Correct?

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1856381' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:41 PM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1856304' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:08 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1856269' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:54 PM'][quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856255' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:45 PM']Yet Scotty claims to have improved on the designs. [url="http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1025756/1/index.htm"]SI Vault[/url][/quote]

You don't think milling from a block of steel isn't an improvement on cast putters with hotspots? Sounds to me like Ping themselves have admitted that milling a putter is an improvement.

From Ping's website:

[i]The Redwood Series pays tribute to the home of the original PING putter—Redwood City, California. It was in Karsten Solheim's garage that his equipment revolution was born and with it came the [b]commitment to quality and innovation found in this 100% milled putter series[/b].[/i]

and

[i]With models featuring both traditional and non-traditional looks, there’s a PING putter that can help you save strokes on the green. Each putter is designed to be custom-fit to your individual putting stroke. PING provides putters featuring improved forgiveness, feel, and alignment options. So whether you prefer the feel of an insert putter, the feedback of a steel faced putter, or the [b]precision of a 100% milled putter[/b], PING has the technology you are looking for.[/i]
[/quote]
I agree that milled is better than cast, but that is an opinion, and that is certainly NOT what Ping is saying. The first paragraph is only saying that the commitments that Karsten had when he started have continued in the Redwood series, and the second is simply saying the putter is a precise tool. It isn't a comment on any other product

Of course, Mills was milling putters before Scotty was born. It wasn't an idea that Scotty came up with.
[/quote]

Please read what I responded to. I realize Mills was milling putters long before Scotty.....but the poster was talking about Karsten's designs. I don't believe Mills ever tried to recreate any of them, but could be wrong. Jay?[/quote]

I'm just looking at the bigger picture, the totality of Scotty's work. The article you posted discusses Mills as well.

[quote][b]precision of a 100% milled putter[/b]

Why say that if all putters, cast or milled are as precise? That would be redundant. It is certainly saying that a 100% milled putter is more precise. Either way, NOBODY can deny that quality control is much easier with a CNC machine over a cast. I'm sure Venno would be happy to comment on that![/quote]

Seriously? Come on, you have proven yourself to be smarter than that. They're trying to sell a putter.

They also say that the cast line has [i]"Multi-level alignment aids are designed into most models."[/i] Are you going to tell me that the Redwoods don't have multi-level alignment aids? Its ad copy, and while what they say is accurate, it is not a comparison of models. The ad copy is specific to whatever model they are trying to sell.

[quote]Don't squawk at me, I'm just quoting the Ping website. Furthermore, Karsten IS the man. We owe a lot to him, incredible visionary. If my house is burning, I'm grabbing my Ping Eye 2 becu's. Ripping Ping definitely is NOT my point, they make great gear....my point is simply that there was room for improvement on Karsten's original designs from a manufacturing standpoint. Nothing more, nothing less.[/quote]
I didn't think you were ripping Ping at all. I also agree the text is also on Ping's site. I just think you are being a bit loose with it's use in this case. Because they say one style is "precise" is not the same as saying other models aren't precise, or even that the Redwoods are more precise.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856411' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:55 PM']Scotty didn't improve on the design... He improved on the manufacturing process... Correct?[/quote]

I think there is plenty of room to debate that.....but this thread isn't the venue.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1856400' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:49 PM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1856368' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:37 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1856358' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:34 PM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1856335' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:19 PM']But if Tiger's putter is cast then skim milled, doesn't that mean that his Scotty has hot spots too?

You can have the same problem in a milled putter if there's a void or defect in the billet.[/quote]


The key word is "if" and implying that it is a cast head that's been skim milled is pure speculation. Site your source.
[/quote]
I can only assume that since he did say [i]"if"[/i] he doesn't have a source and he didn't present it as fact. In fact, I sort of think it was more tongue in cheek than anything...

[quote name='biscuity' post='1856365' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:36 PM'][quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856312' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:10 PM']Honestly. No. The hotspots you speak of are minute and I highly doubt that they make you miss putts. But if you would like to blame missing putts on a "hot spot" by all means. Go ahead. I believe that Ping has started milling putters because it is both better on the workforce and like their site says. It is precise. [b]Milled putters are more alike then a cast putter so now they can have stricter specs before they leave the shop floor.[/b][/quote]


Therefore, they are an improvement over the original Anser.
[/quote]
From a manufacturing point of view. Being all the same doesn't necessarily mean better, and he still wasn't the first.
[/quote]

Asking if a manufacturer was the first to introduce a feature is completely different than asking if a product is an improvement over an older design.
[/quote]
I agree. Go back and read this block of text again. Scotty improved the manufacture, not necessarily the design.

Before this goes any further, understand I am not against borrowing features, or even making what might be basically copies of other designs. My beef is that Scotty has built himself up with no real designs of his own, and now is using his considerable power and the resources of Acushnet (which he gained using other's designs) to re-write history with himself as a great putter designer. Changing how a design is manufactured is hardly re-designing the putter. Even if I agree that it is an improvement. It wasn't even Scotty's idea to mill putters.

I have ethical issues with that.

[TuffKukae]

I'm a scotty fan.. but for those who think backdating is alright please find me a way I can backdate my 401k to pre august 2008, so I could dump everything and retire.

[biscuity]

[quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856652' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:44 PM']What logic were you referring to? My points were just counter points to your statement. I use what I use because they feel good to me. Not because I am a wanna be pro. My putter is an expansion and a perspective on the anser 2 from a different person.[/quote]

You said that lead could be added, so built-in adjustable weights are no advantage on a driver. Sure, you could add a bunch of ugly toxic lead tape to your nice gloss black graphite/titanium driver head. But having machined/polished pre-wheighed screw-in weights that you can move around and still have it look nice is a feature that most people think is an improvement.

You say that some think that a small head makes it easier to find the sweet spot. So why don't more people play 250cc drivers?

The new generation of milled putters have a bunch of features that are attractive to consumers. A lot of people think they work better, a lot of people think they look better. That's why they buy them.

Arguing that there have been no improvements to the Anser design in 40 years goes against Ping's own evolution of the Anser. The Redwood Anser is a better putter than the original, that's part of the reason they can charge 3X the price.

[funkyfedora]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1856693' date='Jul 31 2009, 09:04 PM'][quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856652' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:44 PM']What logic were you referring to? My points were just counter points to your statement. I use what I use because they feel good to me. Not because I am a wanna be pro. My putter is an expansion and a perspective on the anser 2 from a different person.[/quote]

You said that lead could be added, so built-in adjustable weights are no advantage on a driver. Sure, you could add a bunch of ugly toxic lead tape to your nice gloss black graphite/titanium driver head. But having machined/polished pre-wheighed screw-in weights that you can move around and still have it look nice is a feature that most people think is an improvement.[/quote]

[quote]You say that some think that a small head makes it easier to find the sweet spot. So why don't more people play 250cc drivers?[/quote]
Distance and forgiveness on mishits...

[quote]The new generation of milled putters have a bunch of features that are attractive to consumers. A lot of people think they work better, a lot of people think they look better. That's why they buy them.[/quote]
So you agree when I said placebo affect? Which is fantastic. When you feel confident with a club then use it. Don't use it because it has the hitech gizmos...

[quote]Arguing that there have been no improvements to the Anser design in 40 years goes against Ping's own evolution of the Anser. The Redwood Anser is a better putter than the original, that's part of the reason they can charge 3X the price.[/quote] The original? The same one that can sell for up to 75 times the original price? (Inflation I know) but time will only show if some scottys can stand that... It goes back to "its only worth what somebody will pay..."

[biscuity]

[quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856722' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:13 PM']Distance and forgiveness on mishits...[/quote]

The same holds true for putters, distance control and forgiveness are directly related to the size of the sweet spot. That's why I stated earlier that I wouldn't buy a Classic Mini if they started offering them for $100. I don't want a small headed putter. I have a bag full of old Pings, Bullseyes and 8813 putters that collect dust because they're too light and the sweet spot is the size of an ant. I put better with modern putters.

[quote]It goes back to "its only worth what somebody will pay..."[/quote]

Wrapping it back up to the Classic Mini, I think that's what makes some people (and I don't really like this word) jealous. They see Scotty selling the most milled putters, they see him winning a lot on tour, they see a huge group of people actively collecting them, and they see people paying a lot of money for the rare ones. When someone is successful there will usually be people looking to knock them down.

[funkyfedora]

I don't know about sweetspots on ping. I could find it pretty well... But I agree on the weight. Most old pings are 330 or so. (don't know the actual weight.) And now I have a hefty beast of a putter that is 360 grams.

Completely agree. With all that popularity, it will bring some hate... I think most people hate how he can spend the most money to have players use his putters...


The mini:

I would be interested in trying one and I don't think I would buy one...

[Johnny]

[quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856814' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:01 PM'][quote name='Johnny' post='1856806' date='Jul 31 2009, 09:56 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1856709' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:09 PM'][quote name='adamsstaff' post='1856353' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:31 PM']This thread sucks...Give it a F'ing rest. It is a freaking putter!! Who cares! Scotty sucks bah bah bah...Bettinardi sucks bah bah bah..
There..I just summed up 42 pages of the most rediculous non sense on the internet. Anyone else need a copy of the cliff notes? Bunch of freaking know it alls!![/quote]


Rather than deleting posts in which we reply in calm and courteous manner, you should be deleting posts like the one above.
[/quote]


did you report it ? Didn't think so Now if thread requires moderation 24/7 it might as well close now.
[/quote]


Alright. I will be citizen reporting when it gets out of hand... Usually I see a mod on the viewing list and assume something is going to be taken care of...
[/quote]

I think he might also me confusing adamstaff with adamsmith (mod).. pay attention biscuit

[biscuity]

[quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856793' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:49 PM']I don't know about sweetspots on ping. I could find it pretty well... But I agree on the weight. Most old pings are 330 or so. (don't know the actual weight.) And now I have a hefty beast of a putter that is 360 grams.

Completely agree. With all that popularity, it will bring some hate... [b]I think most people hate how he can spend the most money to have players use his putters...[/b]


The mini:

I would be interested in trying one and I don't think I would buy one...[/quote]

Agreed. In the quote below Scotty says that he pays half of his nearest competitor, which is probably Odyssey. And I believe that Scotty doesn't use print or TV advertising, he relies on getting his putters on tour for promotion.

[i]"Cameron and Titleist, they say, bought instant credibility in the early years of their alliance by offering Tour players more money than any other manufacturer to use a Cameron putter. Cameron counters by saying that even the small manufacturers pay players to use their equipment and that he now offers half as much as his nearest competitor."[/i]

[funkyfedora]

He may offer half of what he used to, but look at how many players play SC because they knew they could get a quick buck..

[biscuity]

[quote name='funkyfedora' post='1857007' date='Jul 31 2009, 09:52 PM']He may offer half of what he used to, but look at how many players play SC because they knew they could get a quick buck..[/quote]

True, but it doesn't take a marketing genius to figure out that it's important for the success of your company to have Pros using your clubs.... or does it?

[funkyfedora]

Spend money to make money? I am sure a lot of players would love to play with a Byron or a Machine...

[Zach Heusser]

For a second time please add something new to the thread or don't post in it! Useless comments will be deleted.
Thanks Zach

[stage1350]

But if Tiger's putter is cast then skim milled, doesn't that mean that his Scotty has hot spots too?

 

You can have the same problem in a milled putter if there's a void or defect in the billet.

 

 

The key word is "if" and implying that it is a cast head that's been skim milled is pure speculation. Site your source.

 

Apparently, someone else was laughing at you demanding that someone else cite a source, since your hypocracy was deleted. But, since you want to be “that guy,” here you go:

 

As you and others have pointed out, I did specifically condition my statement with “if” because there has been a long running rumor that Tiger’s putter was cast and skim milled to produce a feel as close to the Ping Anser 2 he loved as a younger player. I will cite another thread-

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=244503 Post #10

 

parsed for brevity...

 

There is also a rumor, thought, knowledge that the actual putter TW uses is cast and then skim milled. Not fully milled like all the other Camerons. The cast feel is what TW grew up on playing PING anser 2s, so when TW requested the putter years ago this casting may have been part of it. That could also explain the hard to replicate feel of the putter. Casting has more voids etc, so maybe TW's gamer has a really nice sweet spot.

 

In this thread, post #458, Foregasim again mentions this story about casting and skim milling-

 

parsed for brevity...

 

Here is what I have heard from someone that is in the business now and was in the business in 1999 and was working with Tiger. I can not provide verification or sources of any of this part of the story nor will I share who the different individuals are that shared their experiences with me. If you do not want to believe the story that is OK with me. If you want to tell a different story, that is fine with me.

 

When Tiger got back from the 1998 Open he was pissed about losing to his good friend O'Meara and doing so using O'Meara's back up Ping Anser 2, a similar putter to what he grew up using and which he was comfortable using. He had worked with Cameron and had won with Cameron's putters. He contacted Cameron and requested that a putter be made for him that replicated the Anser 2 in looks and feel.

 

Cameron contracted with a third party to made a mold of the Anser 2 head that could be used to cast a blank that Cameron could then mill and shape into a final putter. The putter needed to be cast so that it would provide Tiger the same feel as the cast Anser 2 that Tiger specified. Scotty provided the material, stainless steel, that was melted down and used in the mold to cast the blank. This was not unusual as Cameron has made cast putters for numerous PGA players and some of them are in fact listed in the registry.

 

The cast blank was milled (this is called skim milling because you are skimming the surface of the blank to get the tolerances to spec and to clean up the final look. The back of the putter and the sole were also skim milled. The cavity was milled until the desired face thickness was achieved which also determines the sound and feel of the putter. The putter had a lot of hand work, grinding, sanding, etc. to get to the final shape. It was completed after the 1999 Masters and Tiger first put it in play at the 1999 Byron Nelson.

 

If the putter Tiger is using was a CNC milled, from a billet of steel, then the duplicate putters that Cameron has made over the years would have been identical to the original and it would be much easier for some other company, like Nike, to make a duplicate of the putter. In fact there would have been a "sister" putter made from the other part of the billet that would be exactly like the existing putter, even down to the molecules of metal that made up the putter because they came from the same billet. You have to ask yourself why have none of these "back up " putter been acceptable to Tiger?

 

parsed for brevity...

 

After you post a few sad attempts at rebuttal with Armani suits and Ferraris and how dare anyone expect that Scotty lay his hands on every putter (God forbid it’s stamped handmade :rolleyes: ), you seem to have no problem arguing this point in post #464-

 

Sure looks like a lot of changes if it was a backpoured Anser 2. You'd have to scale it up so that it ends up about the same size after it was skim milled. The neck is a much different shape, the lower flange is thicker etc etc.

 

If Scotty made a mold, why can't he just pour some more for Tiger, why bother machining back-ups out of billet GSS?

 

Ironically, since the story involves a third party that cast from a mold, not Scotty making the mold, you don’t get the fact that the mold may or may not have been kept by the third party casting company. Somehow, I doubt Cameron bought and kept the mold. There would be no profit in it.

 

Either way, Foregasim responds to your claims in post #474-

 

parsed for brevity...

Biscuit my boy, you are not paying attention again. The putter was cast to achieve the same feel and no one ever said that it was made to exactly duplicate the look of the Anser 2.

 

There are more differences than just the neck and I am sure that Cameron and Tiger discussed how Tiger wanted the putter to look and Cameron provided his input on what he thought would work for Tiger based upon his knowledge of Tiger.

 

Since you seem to be so adept at digging up pictures of old photos and claiming that Cameron CNC milled Tigers putter, how about some photos of some of the other heads that were CNC milled in 1999 that are the IDENTICAL shape as Tigers gamer or is it your position that he created a computer program just for this particular program and never used that program again? It would be the first and only computer program that he ever wrote and it would be the first and only time there was a one of a kind CNC milled Anser 2 Cameron.

 

parsed for brevity...

 

tpariff adds another story on cast Camerons in post #479. One could easily draw the conclusion (assuming you are willing to accept TCC as a worthy source) that Cameron has not only made cast putters in the past, but MULTIPLE cast putters for different players. Therefore, it would definitely be possible that the Tiger GSS putter could have been cast-

 

There's another Scotty loyalist, Jason Gore, who also really likes the feel of a cast putter. He likes it so much that he recently paid some good coin for one on eBay - a David Duval cast Cameron. Unfortunately it didn't work for his game and he's been switching between some 009's, a BBC and even a TM Itsy Bitsy Spider in recent months. Interestingly enough, Gore grew up playing a cast Ping Anser just like TW did.

 

Straight from Jason Gore on TCC:

 

"Perhaps I am just stubborn, but I love the of the BBC and the casts. Scotty and the studio have made me a bunch of putters, and, I am sure that they are sick of me asking them to make me one like the BBC. They keep trying (bless their hearts!). I am sure that they will. If not, they will (if they haven't already) make me something that will be more AWESOME than what I already have. I am sure Scotty's head is spinning knowing that I like the cast. Maybe not... There are many more players that are higher on the totem pole than I am!"

 

And...

 

"I grew up using an old Ping Anser. It was a Scottsdale shape, but not a Scottsdale. I found it in the cart barn at the course I used to work at and grew up on. So, more than anything, it has that 'tingy' sound... if you know what I mean. If, you were wearing headphones, you might not notice the difference feel wise. No headphones, you would think that it felt completely different. It's tough to explain.."

 

So I have cited two different sources telling the same story, and we have established (by citing another site ) that Cameron has a history of casting putters upon request.

 

Therefore I stand by my response to the issue about castings and hot spots. IF Tiger’s putter was cast and skim milled, it has the same possibility of hot spots that the cast Pings do.

 

... pay attention biscuit :black eye:

 

All this siting of courses has made me tired. I’m going back to bed. :rolleyes:

[rgk5]

Given the length of stroke( i.e. force) needed to putt a ball, I seriously doubt that a hot spot would have any negative effect on a putt. Scotties, like Pings et al have only one sweet spot and it is very small. Try the old "hang and poke" test with your fingers and see how little movement from the center makes the putter "shudder".

It is the MOI traits of heel/toe weighting, head weight, and size that help to keep the head square to the ball.

[glenwayputters]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1856381' date='Jul 31 2009, 07:41 PM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1856304' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:08 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1856269' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:54 PM'][quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856255' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:45 PM']Yet Scotty claims to have improved on the designs. [url="http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1025756/1/index.htm"]SI Vault[/url][/quote]

You don't think milling from a block of steel isn't an improvement on cast putters with hotspots? Sounds to me like Ping themselves have admitted that milling a putter is an improvement.

From Ping's website:

[i]The Redwood Series pays tribute to the home of the original PING putter—Redwood City, California. It was in Karsten Solheim's garage that his equipment revolution was born and with it came the [b]commitment to quality and innovation found in this 100% milled putter series[/b].[/i]

and

[i]With models featuring both traditional and non-traditional looks, there’s a PING putter that can help you save strokes on the green. Each putter is designed to be custom-fit to your individual putting stroke. PING provides putters featuring improved forgiveness, feel, and alignment options. So whether you prefer the feel of an insert putter, the feedback of a steel faced putter, or the [b]precision of a 100% milled putter[/b], PING has the technology you are looking for.[/i]
[/quote]
I agree that milled is better than cast, but that is an opinion, and that is certainly NOT what Ping is saying. The first paragraph is only saying that the commitments that Karsten had when he started have continued in the Redwood series, and the second is simply saying the putter is a precise tool. It isn't a comment on any other product

Of course, Mills was milling putters before Scotty was born. It wasn't an idea that Scotty came up with.
[/quote]

Please read what I responded to. I realize Mills was milling putters long before Scotty.....but the poster was talking about Karsten's designs. I don't believe Mills ever tried to recreate any of them, but could be wrong. Jay?

[b]precision of a 100% milled putter[/b]

Why say that if all putters, cast or milled are as precise? That would be redundant. It is certainly saying that a 100% milled putter is more precise. Either way, NOBODY can deny that quality control is much easier with a CNC machine over a cast. I'm sure Venno would be happy to comment on that!

Don't squawk at me, I'm just quoting the Ping website. Furthermore, Karsten IS the man. We owe a lot to him, incredible visionary. If my house is burning, I'm grabbing my Ping Eye 2 becu's. Ripping Ping definitely is NOT my point, they make great gear....my point is simply that there was room for improvement on Karsten's original designs from a manufacturing standpoint. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]


No, Mr. Mills had his own ideas of putter design and manufacturing limitations. He certainly believed in perimeter weighting, but did not use any of Karsten's designs. He did make some handmade anser style heads that required welded handmade plumbers necks, but all of the heads that I have seen of those were from the late 80's early 90's. You can see the influence of the plumbers neck on the old Spalding TPM VI heads, but the head itself was not an Anser design.

Jay

[funkyfedora]

[quote name='Venno' post='1857441' date='Aug 1 2009, 10:01 AM'][quote name='funkyfedora' post='1856411' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:55 PM']Scotty didn't improve on the design... He improved on the manufacturing process... Correct?[/quote]

Actually I believe since Bettinardi was the first to figure out how to make a one piece milled putter, he is the one that improved the manufacturing process.
[/quote]
My Apologies. So that takes another thing I have credited Cameron with away... Thank you. Do you think Bettinardi improved on the design? Or just broadened the umbrella of Anser style to better suit players with different strokes and feel?

[biscuity]

But if Tiger's putter is cast then skim milled, doesn't that mean that his Scotty has hot spots too?

 

You can have the same problem in a milled putter if there's a void or defect in the billet.

 

 

The key word is "if" and implying that it is a cast head that's been skim milled is pure speculation. Site your source.

 

Apparently, someone else was laughing at you demanding that someone else cite a source, since your hypocracy (hypocrisy)was deleted. But, since you want to be "that guy," here you go:

 

As you and others have pointed out, I did specifically condition my statement with "if" because there has been a long running rumor that Tiger's putter was cast and skim milled to produce a feel as close to the Ping Anser 2 he loved as a younger player. I will cite another thread-

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=244503 Post #10

 

parsed for brevity...

 

There is also a rumor, thought, knowledge that the actual putter TW uses is cast and then skim milled. Not fully milled like all the other Camerons. The cast feel is what TW grew up on playing PING anser 2s, so when TW requested the putter years ago this casting may have been part of it. That could also explain the hard to replicate feel of the putter. Casting has more voids etc, so maybe TW's gamer has a really nice sweet spot.

 

In this thread, post #458, Foregasim again mentions this story about casting and skim milling-

 

parsed for brevity...

 

Here is what I have heard from someone that is in the business now and was in the business in 1999 and was working with Tiger. I can not provide verification or sources of any of this part of the story nor will I share who the different individuals are that shared their experiences with me. If you do not want to believe the story that is OK with me. If you want to tell a different story, that is fine with me.

When Tiger got back from the 1998 Open he was pissed about losing to his good friend O'Meara and doing so using O'Meara's back up Ping Anser 2, a similar putter to what he grew up using and which he was comfortable using. He had worked with Cameron and had won with Cameron's putters. He contacted Cameron and requested that a putter be made for him that replicated the Anser 2 in looks and feel.

 

Cameron contracted with a third party to made a mold of the Anser 2 head that could be used to cast a blank that Cameron could then mill and shape into a final putter. The putter needed to be cast so that it would provide Tiger the same feel as the cast Anser 2 that Tiger specified. Scotty provided the material, stainless steel, that was melted down and used in the mold to cast the blank. This was not unusual as Cameron has made cast putters for numerous PGA players and some of them are in fact listed in the registry.

 

The cast blank was milled (this is called skim milling because you are skimming the surface of the blank to get the tolerances to spec and to clean up the final look. The back of the putter and the sole were also skim milled. The cavity was milled until the desired face thickness was achieved which also determines the sound and feel of the putter. The putter had a lot of hand work, grinding, sanding, etc. to get to the final shape. It was completed after the 1999 Masters and Tiger first put it in play at the 1999 Byron Nelson.

 

If the putter Tiger is using was a CNC milled, from a billet of steel, then the duplicate putters that Cameron has made over the years would have been identical to the original and it would be much easier for some other company, like Nike, to make a duplicate of the putter. In fact there would have been a "sister" putter made from the other part of the billet that would be exactly like the existing putter, even down to the molecules of metal that made up the putter because they came from the same billet. You have to ask yourself why have none of these "back up " putter been acceptable to Tiger?

 

parsed for brevity...

 

After you post a few sad attempts at rebuttal with Armani suits and Ferraris and how dare anyone expect that Scotty lay his hands on every putter (God forbid it's stamped handmade :rolleyes: ), you seem to have no problem arguing this point in post #464-

 

Sure looks like a lot of changes if it was a backpoured Anser 2. You'd have to scale it up so that it ends up about the same size after it was skim milled. The neck is a much different shape, the lower flange is thicker etc etc.

 

If Scotty made a mold, why can't he just pour some more for Tiger, why bother machining back-ups out of billet GSS?

 

Ironically, since the story involves a third party that cast from a mold, not Scotty making the mold, you don't get the fact that the mold may or may not have been kept by the third party casting company. Somehow, I doubt Cameron bought and kept the mold. There would be no profit in it.

 

Either way, Foregasim responds to your claims in post #474-

 

parsed for brevity...

Biscuit my boy, you are not paying attention again. The putter was cast to achieve the same feel and no one ever said that it was made to exactly duplicate the look of the Anser 2. -->(foregasim wrote in post 355: "Was a mold made of O'Meara's Anser 2 and then a cast Cameron made?")

 

There are more differences than just the neck and I am sure that Cameron and Tiger discussed how Tiger wanted the putter to look and Cameron provided his input on what he thought would work for Tiger based upon his knowledge of Tiger.

 

Since you seem to be so adept at digging up pictures of old photos and claiming that Cameron CNC milled Tigers putter, how about some photos of some of the other heads that were CNC milled in 1999 that are the IDENTICAL shape as Tigers gamer or is it your position that he created a computer program just for this particular program and never used that program again? It would be the first and only computer program that he ever wrote and it would be the first and only time there was a one of a kind CNC milled Anser 2 Cameron.

 

parsed for brevity...

 

tpariff adds another story on cast Camerons in post #479. One could easily draw the conclusion (assuming you are willing to accept TCC as a worthy source) that Cameron has not only made cast putters in the past, but MULTIPLE cast putters for different players. Therefore, it would definitely be possible that the Tiger GSS putter could have been cast-

 

There's another Scotty loyalist, Jason Gore, who also really likes the feel of a cast putter. He likes it so much that he recently paid some good coin for one on eBay - a David Duval cast Cameron. Unfortunately it didn't work for his game and he's been switching between some 009's, a BBC and even a TM Itsy Bitsy Spider in recent months. Interestingly enough, Gore grew up playing a cast Ping Anser just like TW did.

 

Straight from Jason Gore on TCC:

 

"Perhaps I am just stubborn, but I love the of the BBC and the casts. Scotty and the studio have made me a bunch of putters, and, I am sure that they are sick of me asking them to make me one like the BBC. They keep trying (bless their hearts!). I am sure that they will. If not, they will (if they haven't already) make me something that will be more AWESOME than what I already have. I am sure Scotty's head is spinning knowing that I like the cast. Maybe not... There are many more players that are higher on the totem pole than I am!"

 

And...

 

"I grew up using an old Ping Anser. It was a Scottsdale shape, but not a Scottsdale. I found it in the cart barn at the course I used to work at and grew up on. So, more than anything, it has that 'tingy' sound... if you know what I mean. If, you were wearing headphones, you might not notice the difference feel wise. No headphones, you would think that it felt completely different. It's tough to explain.."

 

So I have cited two different sources telling the same story, and we have established (by citing another site ) that Cameron has a history of casting putters upon request.

 

Therefore I stand by my response to the issue about castings and hot spots. IF Tiger's putter was cast and skim milled, it has the same possibility of hot spots that the cast Pings do.

 

... pay attention biscuit :black eye:

 

All this siting of courses has made me tired. I'm going back to bed. :rolleyes:

 

 

Since my original reply was deleted, I'll assume that they think either it was unfair that I ask you to cite your source or that we are off-topic with this forged/cast debate.

 

I'll PM you my reply.

[DB MACHINE]

[quote name='funkyfedora' post='1857030' date='Aug 1 2009, 12:03 AM']Spend money to make money? I am sure a lot of players would love to play with a Byron or a Machine...[/quote]

Actually, we have had 21 players on the PGA TOURs (PGA, Nationwide and Champions tours) including Hall-of-Famer's, future Hall-of-Famers, and Top 10 Players use our putters in 2008 and so far in 2009. Not one single player was paid a cent by us to use our putters, but they have made a substantial amount in earnings by virtue of their play. This, while most of our competitors pay for initial use (tee up fees) or "loyalty bonuses," for continued use, by endorsement contracts, package deals such as driver and putter combo, and hat glove and putter, etc., or just by old fashioned pressure (they are getting paid to pay 10 to 12 clubs, but pressured to use even more).

Some of the players turned down significant amounts of $ from other programs listed above to use our putters. They have done so because they like, believe in, and trust the innovations, unique designs, materials, and other custom options, including our fitting systems, hosel and flange interchangeability, weight adjustability, as well as the custom milling and finishing services that we provide.

Because of these benefits, we are working with more and more players every week. The best players know that it would be far better for their careers to play better with equipment they trust is totally fit, customized and optimized or their game, instead of getting paid a few hundred to a few thousand dollars a week for a putter that does not work as well for them.

-Dave

[finalist]

Here's a list of Pros who haved used a Byron stick (this list is a direct quote from Byron).

[i]"Kevin Na, James Oh, Hunter Mahan, Tom Shaw, Andy Bean, Arnold Palmer, Tag Ridings, Lee Trevino, Raymond Floyd, Howard Clark, Charlie Garza, Jack Stenicke, Paul Dietsche, Ted Norby, Joe Acosta, Masaru Amano, Ben Smith, Bob Gaus, Geoge Burns, Chad Wright, Darrell Kestner, Michael Caporale, Andrew Magee, Yon Yim, John Mahaffey, Rocco Constantino, Massy Kuramoto, Sandy Lyle, Bruce Crampton, Johnny Pott and many more have used a Byron in high school or college or on the PGA Tour."[/i]

I'll also mention Payne Stewart gamed one of Byron's flatsticks for a short time before the Seemore(?) he used last.
Then came the tee up money to switch for many of the names above. Thanks Acushnet and Callaway.