Winter Rules

[dpark]

[quote name='KevCarter' post='1858092' date='Aug 1 2009, 03:20 PM']I'm always amazed when this topic comes up and people call preferred lies "cheating." It is perfectly acceptable during unusual conditions to play "winter rules" or "preferred lies" as outlined in the USGA Rule Book under Appendix 1, Local Rules:

[quote][b]APPENDIX I- LOCAL RULES; CONDITIONS OF THE COMPETITION[/b]

[b]c. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"[/b]
Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25, and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.
[b]However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:[/b]
"A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green[or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves , there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.[/quote]

Kevin
[/quote]

If you read through the thread, there was no Local Rule put in place by the club or league organizers, hence cheating.

[bermuda]

[quote name='KevCarter' post='1858092' date='Aug 1 2009, 06:20 PM']I'm always amazed when this topic comes up and people call preferred lies "cheating." It is perfectly acceptable during unusual conditions to play "winter rules" or "preferred lies" as outlined in the USGA Rule Book under Appendix 1, Local Rules:

[quote][b]APPENDIX I- LOCAL RULES; CONDITIONS OF THE COMPETITION[/b]

[b]c. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"[/b]
Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25, and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.
[b]However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:[/b]
"A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green[or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves , there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.[/quote]

Kevin
[/quote]

Good post, Kevin. On the course I grew up on, you could adjust the words to read, "However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains, extreme heat [b]and the lack of equipment, labor and money to do anything about them [/b]can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment." We had fairways that for years were like concrete over large areas with sparse grass, and we played winter rules year-round. When we went to a course in better condition, we played it down.

Like others said, as long as everyone agrees and plays by the same standards, then by all means find a decent lie nearby and have fun.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='dpark' post='1858218' date='Aug 1 2009, 06:32 PM'][quote name='KevCarter' post='1858092' date='Aug 1 2009, 03:20 PM']I'm always amazed when this topic comes up and people call preferred lies "cheating." It is perfectly acceptable during unusual conditions to play "winter rules" or "preferred lies" as outlined in the USGA Rule Book under Appendix 1, Local Rules:

[quote][b]APPENDIX I- LOCAL RULES; CONDITIONS OF THE COMPETITION[/b]

[b]c. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"[/b]
Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25, and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.
[b]However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:[/b]
"A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green[or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves , there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.[/quote]

Kevin
[/quote]

If you read through the thread, there was no Local Rule put in place by the club or league organizers, hence cheating.
[/quote]

Ummm, did you read the question which was the title of the thread?

Kevin

[frozen_rope]

For decades the USGA did not recognize "preferred lies" or "Winter Rules". However, since so many golf clubs around the country had handicap committee chairman whining and crying to them the USGA relented and added a clause to permit preferred lies if and when the local course committee deems it appropriate. This way the local clubs and their members can feel less guilty about cheating. Fortunately, the USGA has never succumbed to allow lift-clean-cheat at any of their own hosted events.

[quote name='dpark' post='1858218' date='Aug 1 2009, 07:32 PM']If you read through the thread, there was no Local Rule put in place by the club or league organizers, hence cheating.[/quote]

[dpark]

[quote name='Kevin2' post='1861736' date='Aug 3 2009, 11:44 AM'][quote name='dpark' post='1858218' date='Aug 1 2009, 06:32 PM'][quote name='KevCarter' post='1858092' date='Aug 1 2009, 03:20 PM']I'm always amazed when this topic comes up and people call preferred lies "cheating." It is perfectly acceptable during unusual conditions to play "winter rules" or "preferred lies" as outlined in the USGA Rule Book under Appendix 1, Local Rules:

[quote][b]APPENDIX I- LOCAL RULES; CONDITIONS OF THE COMPETITION[/b]

[b]c. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"[/b]
Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25, and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.
[b]However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:[/b]
"A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green[or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves , there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.[/quote]

Kevin
[/quote]

If you read through the thread, there was no Local Rule put in place by the club or league organizers, hence cheating.
[/quote]

Ummm, did you read the question which was the title of the thread?

Kevin
[/quote]

KevCarter (oops, I mean your new screen name of Kevin2),

If you had bothered to read through the thread, specifically the OP's post #24, you would have realized that this thread was about people taking inconsistent and (likely) personally advantageous "preferred lies" in a league competition because there were no clear rules regarding preferred lies. Not whether "preferred lies" exist.

Preferred lies that do not follow a clearly-defined Local Rule when in a competition, is cheating. Period.

[Sean2]

[quote name='dpark' post='1853159' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:49 PM'][quote name='Avatar' post='1852514' date='Jul 30 2009, 02:41 AM'][quote name='dpark' post='1852382' date='Jul 30 2009, 01:04 AM'][quote name='Avatar' post='1852314' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:21 PM']pga professionals never play courses like we do. imho if a ball is lying on hard pan that is like concrete take relief as you could risk injury. you get relief from a cart path don't you? yes, for that very reason.

i've played in tournaments under conditions like that and the committee has always allowed for relief as they don't want to see anyone injured.

it's common sense really.[/quote]

The option for the tournament committee for this "hard ground" as you call it, is Ground Under Repair. Are you telling me that this "tournament" you played in had a local rule where a player could decide that his ball is in an unplayable lie (hard ground) and get a free drop? I'd like to know where that tournament is so I can stay clear of that one.

In a real tournament, the rules of golf are there to protect the field. What one person "deems" to be hard ground is not necessarily what someone else would call it. If they want to mark off large areas as Ground Under Repair, that is fine. But to allow an individual (with the approval of his fellow competitor) to decide something like that is total BS.

And, oh by the way, I have seen many people in tournaments, myself included, where I chose to hit the ball off of a cartpath because taking relief according to the rules would have been much worse. That is what you do when your options are worse than playing the ball as it lies.

Just curiously, do you also take this "free relief" when you ball is in tall grass, where you could hurt yourself trying to hack it out? Does that also qualify for your "common sense" ruling???

"Gee I could hurt myself if I swing too hard on this one because of the tall, thick grass... I think I am entitled to free relief..."

How about when you golf ball is lying directly behind a large tree trunk? Do you also give yourself a free drop because you could "injure yourself" by hitting the shot? Look what Tiger did at the Masters a few years back on #11. He broke his 5 iron hitting into a tree. And yes, he could have hurt himself, but that was a choice he made, he also could have punched out to the side without risk to himself or his golf club.

Your logic makes absolutely no sense. Just say you don't like playing off of hard pan lies, but please don't try to rationalize it as "common sense" because it is anything but that.
[/quote]
dpark, i would think you could state your opinion without being rude and sarcastic. the internet needs more civility, not less.

anyway heavy rough is part of a "normal" golf course, as is a tree trunk. if the player is concerned about sustaining an injury then he can declare an unplayable take his penalty and go from there. "concrete" in the middle of the fairway is not "normal". you go on to say you have hit the ball off cart paths before. i don't have the skill to hit that shot or off "hard pan" for that matter. as a senior i do not want to risk exacerbating wrist and elbow tendonitis injuries and will take a penalty if i deem that would be the case. in any case, i go by the rules of the committee, good, bad, or indifferent.
[/quote]

Avatar,

If the fairway were THAT hard, the golf staff should be marking those areas as GUR. Otherwise you play the ball as it lies or take an unplayable lie. In tournaments, you CANNOT unilaterally decide that a lie is entitled to relief.

With regard to your statement "i've played in tournaments under conditions like that and the committee has always allowed for relief as they don't want to see anyone injured", how did they do this? I seriously want to know.[/quote]
they just said there are some spots in the fairway that s/b ground under repair circled in white paint.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='dpark' post='1861813' date='Aug 3 2009, 02:14 PM'][quote name='Kevin2' post='1861736' date='Aug 3 2009, 11:44 AM'][quote name='dpark' post='1858218' date='Aug 1 2009, 06:32 PM'][quote name='KevCarter' post='1858092' date='Aug 1 2009, 03:20 PM']I'm always amazed when this topic comes up and people call preferred lies "cheating." It is perfectly acceptable during unusual conditions to play "winter rules" or "preferred lies" as outlined in the USGA Rule Book under Appendix 1, Local Rules:

[quote][b]APPENDIX I- LOCAL RULES; CONDITIONS OF THE COMPETITION[/b]

[b]c. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"[/b]
Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25, and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.
[b]However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:[/b]
"A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green[or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves , there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.[/quote]

Kevin
[/quote]

If you read through the thread, there was no Local Rule put in place by the club or league organizers, hence cheating.
[/quote]

Ummm, did you read the question which was the title of the thread?

Kevin
[/quote]

KevCarter (oops, I mean your new screen name of Kevin2),

If you had bothered to read through the thread, specifically the OP's post #24, you would have realized that this thread was about people taking inconsistent and (likely) personally advantageous "preferred lies" in a league competition because there were no clear rules regarding preferred lies. Not whether "preferred lies" exist.

Preferred lies that do not follow a clearly-defined Local Rule when in a competition, is cheating. Period.
[/quote]

What is the threads title? My post answered that question.

What is your purpose of these posts directed towards me? Have I done something to offend you? Perhaps letting me know your issues via PM would be more appropriate.

KevCarter

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='ScottCrick' post='1853646' date='Jul 30 2009, 04:27 PM']DaveLee -

Thanks, I think we've nailed that the league [u]hasn't[/u] put rules into place, and just allows people to pick and place as they'd like. Really this is the essential problem, but I think I at least can go to them with a reasonable suggestion that they do set rules, and make all the players aware of what they are.

atlanta -

Nice to hear that having rules to address unfair playing conditions have been adopted by others. Like the avatar; is that a Collie pup? We have 3 of 'em.[/quote]

As I read this thread there does seem to be a few principles involved in taking relief, and these principles are too general to fit within anything that could be recognized as a ROG or a local rule. If I were playing in this league I would follow this principle as best I could. If this got 'out of hand' (by my own personal definition) then I would drop out of the league.

Note that for the case of a team competition (very common in league play) you are putting your team-mates at a competitive disadvantage if you don't do that.

dave