is this considered as sandbagging?

[gandor]

when i play regular/casual round i play very aggressive like trying to hit the pin and trying to reach the green in two on long par 5s which cost me most of the time a lot of stroke but when i play with really good players i tend to play safe so i wont slow our round and in the end i end up with a better score. I would think if I join a tournament i would play safe as well and more than likely i would shot below my handicap. for example my last round i was 1 under after 6 holes then on the 7th hole par 5 i tried to hit a hook on my (255 yrds)second shot behind a tree and ended up hitting the tree and my balls bounced off a hazard and ended up with quad bogey but if there was something on the line like if it was tournament/or $ involved then i would have more than likely played safe i would probably still make par or double at worst. and before you flame on me i dont play aggressive just to post a high score. i just think that during casual round is when i can test/practice/hit these kind of shots(working the ball, hitting my fairway woods to get in 2...etc) and not just on the range.

[cheeser]

It just depends on how ridiculous your shots are, and how many times you do it. It really comes down to scores. If you shoot in the mid 80's on casual rounds and report those scores as handicap, then shoot mid 70's in tourneys, then you're sandbagging. After all, that's the defintion of sandbagging, isn't it? Playing unrealistically then playing realistically when it matters? In all honesty, if you have to ask the question, then I think a little part of you thinks that you should play a little more consistently.

[manbearpig]

[quote name='cheeser' post='2005890' date='Oct 14 2009, 09:41 AM']It just depends on how ridiculous your shots are, and how many times you do it. It really comes down to scores. If you shoot in the mid 80's on casual rounds and report those scores as handicap, then shoot mid 70's in tourneys, then you're sandbagging. After all, that's the defintion of sandbagging, isn't it? Playing unrealistically then playing realistically when it matters? In all honesty, if you have to ask the question, then I think a little part of you thinks that you should play a little more consistently.[/quote]

What he said ^

If you have enough of those tourney scores and all your good non-tournament rounds I would think it should even out. Don't most systems take these things into account anyways with adjusted scores, like some people can't enter higher than double bogey etc?

[crtssxc]

[quote name='cheeser' post='2005890' date='Oct 14 2009, 12:41 PM']It just depends on how ridiculous your shots are, and how many times you do it. It really comes down to scores. If you shoot in the mid 80's on casual rounds and report those scores as handicap, then shoot mid 70's in tourneys, then you're sandbagging. After all, that's the defintion of sandbagging, isn't it? Playing unrealistically then playing realistically when it matters? In all honesty, if you have to ask the question, then I think a little part of you thinks that you should play a little more consistently.[/quote]

I agree, but I think the OP was asking where is that line? Is it trying shots you can pull off 3/10 times? 5/10? where does it become "unrealistic"?

IMO, it isnt sandbagging if you would be [i]willing[/i] to hit the shot in competition even if you [i]wouldnt[/i] hit the shot most times. So, for the OP, are you hitting shots that you would [i]never[/i] hit in a competitive round? if yes then that is sandbagging. If no, then it might be a bit unrealistic, but not sandbagging IMO.

[Cobber]

I've always been told there are two different kinds of golf; casual and tournament. When else would you be able to take a chance on a shot where the outcome doesn't really matter except in a casual round. By doing so, you learn where your limits are and gain experience. Then, in a tourney you take the experience gained and put it to work. Don't get me wrong, if you simply run up your score to keep a high handicap, that's sandbagging no matter how you cut it.

[gandor]

is it playing unrealistically when you play shots that you wouldnt play on a tournament? some people play to get their handicap better but i play to get my game better. what i mean by that is playing difficult shots.

[quote name='cheeser' post='2005890' date='Oct 14 2009, 09:41 AM']It just depends on how ridiculous your shots are, and how many times you do it. It really comes down to scores. If you shoot in the mid 80's on casual rounds and report those scores as handicap, then shoot mid 70's in tourneys, then you're sandbagging. After all, that's the defintion of sandbagging, isn't it? Playing unrealistically then playing realistically when it matters? In all honesty, if you have to ask the question, then I think a little part of you thinks that you should play a little more consistently.[/quote]

[gandor]

this is the problem. there are some shots that i would not hit because there's something on the line but on a casual round where obviously there nothing on the line, why wouldnt i try/practice the shot?

[quote name='crtssxc' post='2005916' date='Oct 14 2009, 09:55 AM'][quote name='cheeser' post='2005890' date='Oct 14 2009, 12:41 PM']It just depends on how ridiculous your shots are, and how many times you do it. It really comes down to scores. If you shoot in the mid 80's on casual rounds and report those scores as handicap, then shoot mid 70's in tourneys, then you're sandbagging. After all, that's the defintion of sandbagging, isn't it? Playing unrealistically then playing realistically when it matters? In all honesty, if you have to ask the question, then I think a little part of you thinks that you should play a little more consistently.[/quote]

I agree, but I think the OP was asking where is that line? Is it trying shots you can pull off 3/10 times? 5/10? where does it become "unrealistic"?

IMO, it isnt sandbagging if you would be [i]willing[/i] to hit the shot in competition even if you [i]wouldnt[/i] hit the shot most times. So, for the OP, are you hitting shots that you would [i]never[/i] hit in a competitive round? if yes then that is sandbagging. If no, then it might be a bit unrealistic, but not sandbagging IMO.
[/quote]

[gandor]

thats what i meant. i play casual and tournament golf with different approach and i dont run up my score to keep a high handicap.

[quote name='Cobber' post='2005944' date='Oct 14 2009, 10:12 AM']I've always been told there are two different kinds of golf; casual and tournament. When else would you be able to take a chance on a shot where the outcome doesn't really matter except in a casual round. By doing so, you learn where your limits are and gain experience. Then, in a tourney you take the experience gained and put it to work. Don't get me wrong, if you simply run up your score to keep a high handicap, that's sandbagging no matter how you cut it.[/quote]

[highergr0und]

It's very borderline IMO, although it's not classic sandbagging. While you're not purposely adding strokes, you're playing wild golf that you know will most likely inflate your score and you know that you'll shoot better in a tourney. You apparently do it enough to where your handicap is out of line with your tourney scores, which I can see causing issues. Maybe you should talk to directors beforehand and have them bump you up a flight, although I'm not too familiar with handicap events to know if they'll do it. Otherwise, just keep your scorecards in your bag so you can explain the big drop when needed.

[gandor]

is it considered playing wild golf if you try difficult shot? if yes, then when would you do it/try it/practice it? put a tree infront of you at the range? when/where do you practice hitting a fairway wood 250yrds with a downhill lie? pls dont take this in a bad way just wondering how did people got better playing this kind of shot that you shouldnt do on you practice/casual round.

[quote name='highergr0und' post='2006106' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:41 AM']It's very borderline IMO, although it's not classic sandbagging. While you're not purposely adding strokes, you're playing wild golf that you know will most likely inflate your score and you know that you'll shoot better in a tourney. You apparently do it enough to where your handicap is out of line with your tourney scores, which I can see causing issues. Maybe you should talk to directors beforehand and have them bump you up a flight, although I'm not too familiar with handicap events to know if they'll do it. Otherwise, just keep your scorecards in your bag so you can explain the big drop when needed.[/quote]

[crtssxc]

[quote name='gandor' post='2005972' date='Oct 14 2009, 01:32 PM']this is the problem. there are some shots that i would not hit because there's something on the line but on a casual round where obviously there nothing on the line, why wouldnt i try/practice the shot?

[quote name='crtssxc' post='2005916' date='Oct 14 2009, 09:55 AM'][quote name='cheeser' post='2005890' date='Oct 14 2009, 12:41 PM']It just depends on how ridiculous your shots are, and how many times you do it. It really comes down to scores. If you shoot in the mid 80's on casual rounds and report those scores as handicap, then shoot mid 70's in tourneys, then you're sandbagging. After all, that's the defintion of sandbagging, isn't it? Playing unrealistically then playing realistically when it matters? In all honesty, if you have to ask the question, then I think a little part of you thinks that you should play a little more consistently.[/quote]

I agree, but I think the OP was asking where is that line? Is it trying shots you can pull off 3/10 times? 5/10? where does it become "unrealistic"?

IMO, it isnt sandbagging if you would be [i]willing[/i] to hit the shot in competition even if you [i]wouldnt[/i] hit the shot most times. So, for the OP, are you hitting shots that you would [i]never[/i] hit in a competitive round? if yes then that is sandbagging. If no, then it might be a bit unrealistic, but not sandbagging IMO.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Then I would question why you are trying a shot in a casual round. If you have no intent to ever hit a type of shot in a competition, what are you practicing it for? Maybe what you mean is that you wouldnt use it now, but would like to in the future?, and that I would think is fine (by my standards at least) because you have to try it at some point if you are going to use it in a competitive round.

And I am in no way pointing a finger calling you a sandbagger by any means, just giving an opinion on the facts you stated.

[odshot68]

This is why there is something called equitable stroke that maximizes what you can post on a given hole based on your handicap. So you if you 1 under and posted an 8 on a par 4 the most you could put would be a 6 based on info given...so your really only 1 over at this point towards your handicap not 3 over like the score states. But I agree trying to hit miracle shots for fun when the odds are against you is fine as long as you post the right score based on your handicap...

[luxman]

I have to be honest and say that what you are doing could ceratinly be construed as sandbagging, especially since you are saying

1. That you post better scores when you "play safe" (Not quite sure why you wouldn't play like this all the time. I know you said you play to get your game better, but, in the end, isn't getting better shooting lower scores?)
2. That you play more aggressively during non-tournmament rounds because "i just think that during casual round is when i can test/practice/hit these kind of shots", yet don't try them in tournament rounds. Afterall, if you are practicing them, aren't you going to try hitting them in competition? If you aren't going to ever hit them in a tournament round, then why are you trying them at all?

I can tell you that if I played with you in a casual round and saw you shoot in the high 80's and then was paired with you in a tournament where you shot in the 70's playing a completely different style of golf that it would certainly raise the question if you were a bagger.

[gandor]

you are absolutely correct that i wont hit the shot on tournament if im not confident on hitting it.

"because you have to try it at some point if you are going to use it in a competitive round."

[quote name='crtssxc' post='2006172' date='Oct 14 2009, 12:20 PM'][quote name='gandor' post='2005972' date='Oct 14 2009, 01:32 PM']this is the problem. there are some shots that i would not hit because there's something on the line but on a casual round where obviously there nothing on the line, why wouldnt i try/practice the shot?

[quote name='crtssxc' post='2005916' date='Oct 14 2009, 09:55 AM'][quote name='cheeser' post='2005890' date='Oct 14 2009, 12:41 PM']It just depends on how ridiculous your shots are, and how many times you do it. It really comes down to scores. If you shoot in the mid 80's on casual rounds and report those scores as handicap, then shoot mid 70's in tourneys, then you're sandbagging. After all, that's the defintion of sandbagging, isn't it? Playing unrealistically then playing realistically when it matters? In all honesty, if you have to ask the question, then I think a little part of you thinks that you should play a little more consistently.[/quote]

I agree, but I think the OP was asking where is that line? Is it trying shots you can pull off 3/10 times? 5/10? where does it become "unrealistic"?

IMO, it isnt sandbagging if you would be [i]willing[/i] to hit the shot in competition even if you [i]wouldnt[/i] hit the shot most times. So, for the OP, are you hitting shots that you would [i]never[/i] hit in a competitive round? if yes then that is sandbagging. If no, then it might be a bit unrealistic, but not sandbagging IMO.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Then I would question why you are trying a shot in a casual round. If you have no intent to ever hit a type of shot in a competition, what are you practicing it for? Maybe what you mean is that you wouldnt use it now, but would like to in the future?, and that I would think is fine (by my standards at least) because you have to try it at some point if you are going to use it in a competitive round.





[/quote]

[luxman]

[quote name='odshot68' post='2006175' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:21 PM']This is why there is something called equitable stroke that maximizes what you can post on a given hole based on your handicap. So you if you 1 under and posted an 8 on a par 4 the most you could put would be a 6 based on info given...so your really only 1 over at this point towards your handicap not 3 over like the score states. But I agree trying to hit miracle shots for fun when the odds are against you is fine as long as you post the right score based on your handicap...[/quote]

I don't see it anywhere, did the OP list his handicap? If not, then he could take an 8 if he's a 20-29.

However, if the person is trying to hit miracle shots on multiple holes, those double bogeys can add up pretty darn quickly.

[gandor]

Thanks guys i think i get what you guys mean...to play casual and tournament golf with the same approach either aggressive or playing it safe.

[gandor]

[quote name='luxman' post='2006202' date='Oct 14 2009, 12:34 PM'][quote name='odshot68' post='2006175' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:21 PM']This is why there is something called equitable stroke that maximizes what you can post on a given hole based on your handicap. So you if you 1 under and posted an 8 on a par 4 the most you could put would be a 6 based on info given...so your really only 1 over at this point towards your handicap not 3 over like the score states. But I agree trying to hit miracle shots for fun when the odds are against you is fine as long as you post the right score based on your handicap...[/quote]

I don't see it anywhere, did the OP list his handicap? If not, then he could take an 8 if he's a 20-29.

However, if the person is trying to hit miracle shots on multiple holes, those double bogeys can add up pretty darn quickly.
[/quote]

i just got my scga card and i dont have a handicap yet thats why i raised this question since i plan on joining our club tournament next season. i currently shot in mid-high 80s and a really bad round in a low 90s.

[odshot68]

[quote name='luxman' post='2006202' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:34 PM'][quote name='odshot68' post='2006175' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:21 PM']This is why there is something called equitable stroke that maximizes what you can post on a given hole based on your handicap. So you if you 1 under and posted an 8 on a par 4 the most you could put would be a 6 based on info given...so your really only 1 over at this point towards your handicap not 3 over like the score states. But I agree trying to hit miracle shots for fun when the odds are against you is fine as long as you post the right score based on your handicap...[/quote]

I don't see it anywhere, did the OP list his handicap? If not, then he could take an 8 if he's a 20-29.

However, if the person is trying to hit miracle shots on multiple holes, those double bogeys can add up pretty darn quickly.
[/quote]
Never saw it posted..just assumed if he could shoot in the 70s in tournaments and be 1 under after 6 then hes a single digit handicap and the worse they can post is a double....

[highergr0und]

I do agree with you that are shots you just cannot practice on the range. You might not have a tree, but you can practice a huge cut/draw, but downhill/sidehill/etc is tough. You haven't really said what the average difference is between your tourney and practice round scores though. I think maybe the best course of action is to play a few casual rounds as you play tourneys to get the handicap to your tourney level, then use ESC when you're out trying to play real aggressively to keep it in line.

[luxman]

[quote name='odshot68' post='2006216' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:41 PM']Never saw it posted..just assumed if he could shoot in the 70s in tournaments and be 1 under after 6 then hes a single digit handicap and the worse they can post is a double....[/quote]

Valid point, although I never assume anything when it comes to handicaps (legit or not).

BTW, the OP has another thread about posting scores when playing alone and hitting multiple balls. Those scores absolutely should not be posted.

[InTheHole]

IMO, none of that is "sandbagging." Sandbagging to me is intentionally shooting higher for the purpose of inflating your handicap with the intended purpose of getting additional handicap strokes in competition. This will allow you a competitive advantage against someone who is not "sandbagging."

Playing a little more aggressively during your non-tournament rounds is not sandbagging. I get the impression you are just trying out some risky shots to see if you can make them. Every once in awhile, that's a good thing. That's how you improve.

Two thoughts to the OP- first, why wouldn't you want to shoot your best all the time? If playing aggressively raises your scores, how is that a good thing? Save the agressive shots for the rounds you are not including in your handicap, such as practice rounds where you may not be strictly following the rules or rounds where you play more than one ball on a hole (assuming no one is behind you).

And second- consider using some punctuation/capitalization in your posts, it will make them much easier to read.

[gandor]

thanks this is a good suggestion too.

here's what i've learned so far:
when i play aggressive on a round i wouldnt post my score.
try to play safe for 20 casual rounds before joining a tournament.

[quote name='InTheHole' post='2006223' date='Oct 14 2009, 12:44 PM']IMO, none of that is "sandbagging." Sandbagging to me is intentionally shooting higher for the purpose of inflating your handicap with the intended purpose of getting additional handicap strokes in competition. This will allow you a competitive advantage against someone who is not "sandbagging."

Playing a little more aggressively during your non-tournament rounds is not sandbagging. I get the impression you are just trying out some risky shots to see if you can make them. Every once in awhile, that's a good thing. That's how you improve.

Two thoughts to the OP- first, why wouldn't you want to shoot your best all the time? If playing aggressively raises your scores, how is that a good thing? Save the agressive shots for the rounds you are not including in your handicap, such as practice rounds where you may not be strictly following the rules or rounds where you play more than one ball on a hole (assuming no one is behind you).

And second- consider using some punctuation/capitalization in your posts, it will make them much easier to read.[/quote]

[InTheHole]

[quote name='gandor' post='2006237' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:50 PM']thanks this is a good suggestion too.

here's what i've learned so far:
when i play aggressive on a round i wouldnt post my score.
try to play safe for 20 casual rounds before joining a tournament.[/quote]

Well, technically, that's not right either (although I wouldn't call it sandbagging). The handicap rules say you are supposed to post every round played under The Rules of Golf. Plus, you are supposed to play with the intention of posting the best score possible.

Excluding aggressive rounds, if you follow the rules of golf, would not give you a valid handicap. Your aggressiveness is an attempt at a lower score (if you're following the rules) and therefore is not sandbagging. If it raises your handicap, so be it. But your handicap is a truer representation of your ability in that case.

[gandor]

ok now you even made me more confused. should i post my scores when i play aggressive or not?

[quote name='InTheHole' post='2006276' date='Oct 14 2009, 01:09 PM'][quote name='gandor' post='2006237' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:50 PM']thanks this is a good suggestion too.

here's what i've learned so far:
when i play aggressive on a round i wouldnt post my score.
try to play safe for 20 casual rounds before joining a tournament.[/quote]

Well, technically, that's not right either (although I wouldn't call it sandbagging). The handicap rules say you are supposed to post every round played under The Rules of Golf. Plus, you are supposed to play with the intention of posting the best score possible.

Excluding aggressive rounds, if you follow the rules of golf, would not give you a valid handicap. Your aggressiveness is an attempt at a lower score (if you're following the rules) and therefore is not sandbagging. If it raises your handicap, so be it. But your handicap is a truer representation of your ability in that case.
[/quote]

[InTheHole]

If you are playing by the rules of golf, yes, absolutely. IMO you are [b]not[/b] sandbagging because [i]you are trying to post a lower score[/i].

If you are playing aggressively [i]for the purpose of posting a higher score[/i], that's sandbagging.

Only you know your true intention.

[phil75070]

Read the appropriate section on "Scores" from the USGA Handicap Manual and post accordingly:

[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/"]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-Sy...Manual/Rule-05/[/url]

[luxman]

[quote name='gandor' post='2006301' date='Oct 14 2009, 04:18 PM']ok now you even made me more confused. should i post my scores when i play aggressive or not? [/quote]

Simply put, you are supposed to post all rounds playing under the rules of golf. So, those rounds you play alone or hit multiple balls should not be posted.

With all due respect, it does seem like you are trying to manipulate the system before you've started to use it given you've made mention numerous times that it's not your intention to inflate your score by hitting more aggressive shots. By your own admission you play better when you play safe and you made big numbers when you play more aggressively (which is why you wouldn't play that way in a tournament).

You state that you want to get better, not just lower your handicap. While hitting more difficult shots will make you better, so will managing the golf course. It seems to me by playing "safe" you manage the course better than thus shoot lower rounds, which is the goal when you are keeping score.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='gandor' post='2005832' date='Oct 14 2009, 10:13 AM']when i play regular/casual round i play very aggressive like trying to hit the pin and trying to reach the green in two on long par 5s which cost me most of the time a lot of stroke but when i play with really good players i tend to play safe so i wont slow our round and in the end i end up with a better score. I would think if I join a tournament i would play safe as well and more than likely i would shot below my handicap. for example my last round i was 1 under after 6 holes then on the 7th hole par 5 i tried to hit a hook on my (255 yrds)second shot behind a tree and ended up hitting the tree and my balls bounced off a hazard and ended up with quad bogey but if there was something on the line like if it was tournament/or $ involved then i would have more than likely played safe i would probably still make par or double at worst. and before you flame on me i dont play aggressive just to post a high score. i just think that during casual round is when i can test/practice/hit these kind of shots(working the ball, hitting my fairway woods to get in 2...etc) and not just on the range.[/quote]

You practice on the range... then take what's proven to the course and post the results; least that's what most better golfers do. What I don't do is practice shots I don't have while casually playing 18 because my score walking off 18 would essentially artificially inflate my index when posted.

This might not be what you're hoping for but it's what I would think if facing you on the 1st tee. You've made it clear you have two games, causal which equates to going for it every possible chance which results in high scores, and the more conservative game you showcase when playing with better players like myself or in tournaments...

Your handicap is developed from the 10 best of the last 20 rds. Depending on course ratings and the number of better rounds, your index probably shows higher, not reflecting your actual game. Sand-baggers come in all shapes and conniving sizes.

After sharing what will likely be construed as a manipulative excuse for a higher index which gets you more strokes then you deserve; in plain words, because I don't know what's inside your intent all I can do is say you're a manipulative sand-bagger.

[gandor]

you are right my score is better if i play safe thats why my conclusion is not to post score when i play aggressive and yes, i wont post score when i play multiple balls.

[quote name='luxman' post='2006333' date='Oct 14 2009, 01:32 PM'][quote name='gandor' post='2006301' date='Oct 14 2009, 04:18 PM']ok now you even made me more confused. should i post my scores when i play aggressive or not? [/quote]

Simply put, you are supposed to post all rounds playing under the rules of golf. So, those rounds you play alone or hit multiple balls should not be posted.

With all due respect, it does seem like you are trying to manipulate the system before you've started to use it given you've made mention numerous times that it's not your intention to inflate your score by hitting more aggressive shots. By your own admission you play better when you play safe and you made big numbers when you play more aggressively (which is why you wouldn't play that way in a tournament).

You state that you want to get better, not just lower your handicap. While hitting more difficult shots will make you better, so will managing the golf course. It seems to me by playing "safe" you manage the course better than thus shoot lower rounds, which is the goal when you are keeping score.
[/quote]

[Cobber]

Lets try to simplify this a bit. Find out what your handicap is if you don't already know. Find out what your ESC is based on your handicap. Play golf any way you like. Feeling aggressive and want to take a crack at a wild shot...fine. If you pull it off great, if not, use ESC to keep your scores from becoming artificially high. But post all of your scores that are played using the rules of golf.