Is it fair for a local head pro to play in weekend amatuer group?

[Ogie]

Wonder what other peoples opinions are about this topic. Basically, this is the deal. Every weekend about 16 to 28 guys get together and play in a team ball format as well as skins. Players handicaps range from +2 to an 18 handicap. The team format is 1 BB Net & 1 BB Gross. Skins are usually 2 tie, all tie. Everybody throws in $20 ($10 for team, $10 for skins). The teams are picked by drawing names out of a hat.

 

Here's the part that I'm debating if it's fair or not. The local Pro likes to get into the mix on the weekend as well. He is a really good player. He is always 70-74 (par 72). His team is always in contention and he's good for a few skins as well. Do you think it's fair if he is allowed to play in our group with the format given? Is if fair for him to get into the skins as well?

[Placebo]

Sounds to me like he fits the handicap range so whats the problem?

[Golf_Beauty]

Like Placebo, I don't see a problem. Wouldn't you want the competion to up your game? :)

 

That's like saying Tiger or Phil or Vijay shouldn't play 'cause they're better than everybody else.

[forrre]

If there are +2 handis playing than why can't he. I am a Golf pro but have a 2.6 handi due to the fact that I only play like once a week. I have a group of amys that I play with on thurs. and I am in the middle of the pack as far as handis go. I think he should get to play.

[primetimer006]

i agree with everyone... he should be able to play

[illinikyle]

You've got to let him play.

 

I have a new head pro at my club this year. He likes to play with us and the old one didnt....

 

New Pro > Old Pro

 

It's always fun to have another strong golfer out there.

[lidomkj]

I am just not sure why you feel it is not fair to let him play and gamble with everyone else. The gambling is handicap and you randomly pick the teams from a hat.

[sheppy335]

he should be allowed to play.

[maguy1970]

Let him play. We run the same kind of deal, although it is coordinated by one member who picks teams not completely out of a hat, but by flighting them. It ends up being a complete scratch game, no strokes fo anyone, best 2 ball gross. Skins as well. That way the teams with an "A" player of +1 or scratch get a "B" player with a 5, say while another squad might have "A" being 2 and "B" player being a 3.

Sounds to me like picking the names out of a hat could result in one foursome having all 12's and up, which means the gross is out of the question. I think if you guys had the time to set roughly equivalent teams it would be more fun.

 

Back to the pro, we have guys that play in that format that are better sticks than the pro, so why should you preclude someone based on their job title?

[Ogie]

Let him play. We run the same kind of deal, although it is coordinated by one member who picks teams not completely out of a hat, but by flighting them. It ends up being a complete scratch game, no strokes fo anyone, best 2 ball gross. Skins as well. That way the teams with an "A" player of +1 or scratch get a "B" player with a 5, say while another squad might have "A" being 2 and "B" player being a 3.

Sounds to me like picking the names out of a hat could result in one foursome having all 12's and up, which means the gross is out of the question. I think if you guys had the time to set roughly equivalent teams it would be more fun.

 

Back to the pro, we have guys that play in that format that are better sticks than the pro, so why should you preclude someone based on their job title?

 

 

 

we try to do that too, but sometimes we dont have enough A players so they just pick names randomly.

 

 

I'm one of the A players being a 2 handicap but I think a handicap is misleading anyways. I may be a 2 but my average is a 79! He plays to a scratch (he actually doesnt keep a handicap) but no way can his average be higher than a 72.5. The guy is the senior state open champ (he's 51), finishes in the top 10 of the state open, etc. He's really good and very consistant.

 

The thing is, the guy isnt a scratch. He's probably a +3 and I think he should play to a +3. In fact, the other guy who is a +2 plays to a scratch as well, which isnt right either.

 

I just think the guy gets off easy playing to a "scratch" since thats the default handicap local head pro's seem to abide by. He's got the BB gross taken care of, all he needs are the other guys to make a few pars on their handicap holes and they win the team money.

 

If I felt like stepping up my game, I'd rather spend the money and take actual lessons from the guy rather than donating to his retirement fund.

 

 

but, you guys might be right. I think im just extra bitter because he birdies the sames holes I did this weekend and cancelled out my skin money! haha

[jportz]

I understand your point...the team bets are pretty fair...it all comes down to luck of the draw and who plays well that day. You should handicap the skins to keep it fair. At my local game, we don't give 100% handicap because then it gives the advantage to the sandbaggers in the group. Our rules are anyone with a 10 or higher gets 3 strokes a side (on the 3 toughest holes). We've played the skins that way for a long time and every week it seems to work out pretty fair for all the players.

 

The low gross bet is the only thing that is bad news for the higher handicaps.....they should ask who wants in on it before the round and leave that bet up to the better players. If you've got 15 handicaps putting in money for the low gross bet then they're just throwing their money away IMOP. Over time, they will definitely lose more than they win and the scratch players will win more than they lose.

 

Leave the Gross bets as side bets between the scratch players and keep the rest of the bets NET....or at least use a % of the handicap. That's the only way to keep it fair when you have a wide range of handicaps playing together.

[cpa49707]

I guess I don't seem to see a problem. We do the same thing every Thursday afternoon.

 

Remember someone must have invited him to join your little group outing in the first place, and if you don't like it you can always drop out of the group. If it was me I would go to church and pray he and I are on the same team when they draw players out of a hat.

[slicefixer]

YOUR playing a B A D bet.........and that's YOUR fault for allowing it to happen.......IMOP......

 

I use to OWN the game at the club where I grew up playing when I was a playing professional......but the bet wasn't fair......and I NEVER said a word either.....:)

 

THEN, "they" changed the game.......went to a points system awarding 6 points for an eagle, 4 points for a birdie, 2 points for a par, and 1 point for a bogey.......with NO subtraction for anything worse........I had to score 40 - 45 points or more......with the good players (team captian's) playing the back tee's and everyone else playing a box or two "up".......

 

THEN "they" would pair you up as 4 man teams drawn from a "hat"......literally......the winner was the team with the most points OVER their "allotment"........and they paid 1, 2, 3, even 4 teams depending on the number of teams.......sometimes we played 2 man teams.......sometimes 3 man.......varied depending on how many players showed up for the "noon game".........but the "points system" was ALWAYS used to determine the winners......

 

Let me tell you something, the advantage I had was NOW G O N E and I lost more than I won......think about it, it's MUCH easier for a guy who has to make 18 points to score 4 over his "allotment" than it is for a good player who is alloted 40 points........

 

The ONLY way I could make any $$$ was to have a ton of side bets based on different criteria or with different 2, 3, or 4 man team.......

 

Even though I lost my source of consistent "fun" money, the game was MUCH fairer overall as ALL the players now had an opportunity to TRULY "compete"........:beee:

 

So, you MIGHT want to suggest a change in the "game" to something similar........

[cdilling72]

He should be playing at a 0 hdcp because he is a pro, other than that it shouldn't be a big deal, he is probly trying to get himself out there mingling with the crew

[br61]

I don't see anything wrong about letting club pro play in the games. Both head pro and asst pro(both with plus handicap) play with members here regularly and no one has ever complained because members & pros are always grouped into teams. Sure he might win a skin or two at times but so does everyone too.

 

It usually is more enjoyable playing with a good player and also have a pair of eyes to point out flaws when asked. We don't take games very seriously around here but to have a good time playing golf like it should be. Too bad some guys don't know how to have fun playing golf.

[slicefixer]

I don't see anything wrong about letting club pro play in the games. Both head pro and asst pro(both with plus handicap) play with members here regularly and no one has ever complained because members & pros are always grouped into teams. Sure he might win a skin or two at times but so does everyone too.

 

It usually is more enjoyable playing with a good player and also have a pair of eyes to point out flaws when asked. We don't take games very seriously around here but to have a good time playing golf like it should be. Too bad some guys don't know how to have fun playing golf.

 

 

Ya' gotta' remember........the "pro's," IF they are good players, and the really good amateurs USUALLY will leave with most of the $$$$ UNLESS the game is "handicapped" in some way.......which I would imagine can get VERY "old" to some lesser players.......It's also not a whole lot of fun for "average" players to feel like they aren't "competitive"/involved in the game........just "donating" cannot be a lot of fun........the rest of your post IS dead on IMOP......IF the pro's are the type that are willing to help the members in the group if their asked.....a LOT don't like to do it and will only give some "cursory" advice as they want to focus on their own game.......some will give TOO much advice.....IMOP there is NOTHING worse than "unsolicited advice" to a golfer who's struggling........I'll tell all of my playing partners on the 1st tee that I'll be glad to help them in anyway possible, but, they gotta' ask......otherwise I leave them alone.........

[jportz]

Slicefixer talked about a BAD bet...the scratch players will always want to play a scratch bet...of course they do. Once they get the bet established they start soliciting players to join their game...the more the merrier right? NO...the more players the more cash they win. It's a scam really but don't blame them....blame the knuckleheads that agree to the game.

 

I was suckered into a bet like this once....I was just excited that some of the good players and one pro wanted me to join their group. Heck after about 3 weeks I figured out that they just wanted my money so I started a new game, using 50% handicaps on the skins and all team bets were NET....it didn't take long before MY game was the big game and eventually the better players joined in. They still won some money once in a while but it was definitely more fun and fair for EVERYONE.

[JumboJack]

The pro at my club also is a member of the mens club and plays club tourneys...

[stp]

Handicaps should only exist for people with handicaps. If you are a grown man without disabilities you should play straight up.

 

I love it when a handicapper comes up to me and says he shot a 74 and he is pissed. I say "74", greeat game what are you upset about. They exclaim that that score is with their handicap. HEY you shot a 88 not a 74. Really you shot a 96 but with the handicap rules you didn't take more than a double on any hole.

 

Handicaps are rich guy welfare.

[CowtownTexas]

I play in a game with handicap's ranging from +7 to 18, but there enough different bets that everyone gets the action. There are team bets, individual nets, and other things that make it seem fair to all who play.

 

My experience is that if you don't like a game, you get out of it. Not all that hard to do. On day's where we don't have even numbers, we often have people play with us who might not actually be in "the game".

 

I've played in games where I though I was at an un-fair disadvantage. I've learned it's just easier to not play in games where you don't like the rules. There's typically plenty of other games out there and surely something will fit your needs.

[titleistpro2]

a +7? Isn't PGA average like a +4?

[CowtownTexas]

a +7? Isn't PGA average like a +4?

 

 

I know, sick isn't it? The handicap system really penalizes guys who have plus handicaps. Either that or our system does it wrong. His handicap is +6 from the men's tee but a +7 from the championship tee. At the same time, alot of people are 10's from the men's tee and 11's from the championship.

 

Even as a +6 from our mens tee, he's shot net under par a few times recently. Definately a ton of talent. Hopefully someday he'll be a name you know.

[Zach Heusser]

You've got to let him play.

 

I have a new head pro at my club this year. He likes to play with us and the old one didnt....

 

New Pro > Old Pro

 

It's always fun to have another strong golfer out there.

Great Post

You are lucky that he plays in your group in my opinion.

[themouth1]

stp Posted May 31 2006, 05:42 AM

Handicaps should only exist for people with handicaps. If you are a grown man without disabilities you should play straight up.

 

I love it when a handicapper comes up to me and says he shot a 74 and he is pissed. I say "74", greeat game what are you upset about. They exclaim that that score is with their handicap. HEY you shot a 88 not a 74. Really you shot a 96 but with the handicap rules you didn't take more than a double on any hole.

 

 

What a stupid thing to say. Handicaps make the game fair if they are properly used. Buy the way, people over single digit can take more that double on a hole. The Equatable Stroke rule keeps people from waiting until the bets for the day are settled and then pumping a few balls out of bounds.

[GehenHerzog]

Technically, the pro is not allowed to play in amateur events...but if its not a tournament then it doesn't matter.

[dciman1]

I'd welcome him to play with us. Just makes the golf better.

[stp]

stp Posted May 31 2006, 05:42 AM

Handicaps should only exist for people with handicaps. If you are a grown man without disabilities you should play straight up.

 

I love it when a handicapper comes up to me and says he shot a 74 and he is pissed. I say "74", greeat game what are you upset about. They exclaim that that score is with their handicap. HEY you shot a 88 not a 74. Really you shot a 96 but with the handicap rules you didn't take more than a double on any hole.

 

 

What a stupid thing to say. Handicaps make the game fair if they are properly used. Buy the way, people over single digit can take more that double on a hole. The Equatable Stroke rule keeps people from waiting until the bets for the day are settled and then pumping a few balls out of bounds.

 

Spoken like a man with his hand out. Do you play basketball with an eight foot rim also? DO the better players tie one hand behind their back so the game is "fair". ONE GAME ONE SCORE. Play like a man. THe course already has sissy tee boxes installed and you need strokes too.

[themouth1]

stp Posted Yesterday, 07:24 PM

QUOTE(themouth1 @ Jun 2 2006, 01:39 PM)

 

 

QUOTE

stp Posted May 31 2006, 05:42 AM

Handicaps should only exist for people with handicaps. If you are a grown man without disabilities you should play straight up.

 

I love it when a handicapper comes up to me and says he shot a 74 and he is pissed. I say "74", greeat game what are you upset about. They exclaim that that score is with their handicap. HEY you shot a 88 not a 74. Really you shot a 96 but with the handicap rules you didn't take more than a double on any hole.

 

 

 

 

What a stupid thing to say. Handicaps make the game fair if they are properly used. Buy the way, people over single digit can take more that double on a hole. The Equatable Stroke rule keeps people from waiting until the bets for the day are settled and then pumping a few balls out of bounds.

 

 

 

Spoken like a man with his hand out. Do you play basketball with an eight foot rim also? DO the better players tie one hand behind their back so the game is "fair". ONE GAME ONE SCORE. Play like a man. THe course already has sissy tee boxes installed and you need strokes too.

 

Spoken like a true idiot. Just so you know though, I am usually the one giving the strokes and I do so because it makes the game fair. Don't bother responding. I am through talking to idiots.

[Golfchicago]

One of our assistant's game has gone south. His handicap has escalated to a 7. He is actually playing to a legit 7. He hits it about 310 and then can't find a green with his irons. It is bazare. Anyway, when he plays the money game with a 7. If he wins, the opponents (members) are upset because they think he is sandbagging and his partner is ticked because, he thinks how can a pro be a 7 and lose. He needs to stay away from the money games. He is in a lose lose situatuion.