Far out Rules of Golf

[KevCarter]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1267149901' post='2277683']
I don't think we are actually on the same page here..... when I read sawgrass response, he says that in a tournament I played in and the official ruled in favor of one of my opponents who asked for and got relief from a embedded ball in the rough, he says that he feels that was a bad ruling..... I actually agree that the guy got free relief on the embedded ball...... there was no local rule in play that day.....

I also feel that perhaps we are all using assumptions on local rules..... some courses do indeed allow local rules, some more liberal then others, such as club length relief vs 6 inches.....

I also have noticed that when I watch the tour play and they envoke the lift, clean, place, unless they use a local rule, I have not seen them place the ball anywhere other then right back in the same spot for the lift, clean, place.... I did notice one year at Pebble, they were moving it roughly a club length, but if I recall, they were using a local rule ......

I am not confusing lift, clean, place with embedded ball...... I realize that they are two entirely different situations.....

so Kevin, are you saying that if no local rule is in effect, it is your opinion that a embedded ball in the rough would indeed get free relief????
[/quote]

NO!

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='25 February 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1267149953' post='2277687']
[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1267136779' post='2277140']
[quote name='mat562' date='11 February 2010 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1265874246' post='2243268']
If I live to be 100 I'll never understand why a player isn't allowed to tap down spike marks on the greens. Really horrible damage that's caused by the Herman Munsters of the world - or at least ones who don't consider the rest of the field after they've holed out - put the following group at a distinct disadvantage. Allowing players to tidy up marks wouldn't unduly delay play, nor would it give any competitor any sort of advantage. Why the rule's the way it is is beyond me.

[color="#ff0000"]Another one that baffles me is why you get relief for an embedded ball only on close mown areas and not in the rough. I know a plugged ball in long grass only happens once in a blue moon, but it strikes me as a daft rule[/color]. The European Tour Tournament Committee seem to agree with me and have a local rule in effect for tournament play that flies in the face of the R&A's stance.
[/quote]

interesting, It was not too long ago that I was playing in a tourney...... with wet conditions...... one of the guys in the group had his ball embed in the rough, actually more then once this happened...... he called us competitors over and declared he had a embedded ball and was going to take a drop..... one of the fellows in the group said that embedded ball rule did not apply in rough, and the guy insisted that indeed it did apply....bottom line, he played two balls and after round went into club house for OFFICIAL ruling.... the rules official, said that yes he was entitled to FREE relief even though it was in rough and went on to quote this rule

[color="#474747"][size="2"]
[b]25-2. Embedded Ball[/b]
[color="#7f7f7f"][size="3"]A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url] may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the[url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url]. "Closely mown area" means any area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course,[/i][/url] [color="#ff0000"]including paths through the rough[/color], cut to fairway height or less.[/size][/color]


[size="3"][color="#7f7f7f"][size="3"]when I read this rule..... I see the red highlight and would interpret that to mean ....yes you are entitled to relief in rough.....[/size][/color][/size]
[size="3"] [/size]
[size="3"] [/size][/size][/color]
[/quote]

"Through the green" is interpreted by most tournament officials to mean anywhere within the boundaries the course and not marked a hazard.
[/quote]

I agree with you...it was pointed out to me that the poster is from where R&A rules apply, and that they may not actually agree with THROUGH THE GREEN

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='25 February 2010 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1267149991' post='2277689']
[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1267149901' post='2277683']
I don't think we are actually on the same page here..... when I read sawgrass response, he says that in a tournament I played in and the official ruled in favor of one of my opponents who asked for and got relief from a embedded ball in the rough, he says that he feels that was a bad ruling..... I actually agree that the guy got free relief on the embedded ball...... there was no local rule in play that day.....

I also feel that perhaps we are all using assumptions on local rules..... some courses do indeed allow local rules, some more liberal then others, such as club length relief vs 6 inches.....

I also have noticed that when I watch the tour play and they envoke the lift, clean, place, unless they use a local rule, I have not seen them place the ball anywhere other then right back in the same spot for the lift, clean, place.... I did notice one year at Pebble, they were moving it roughly a club length, but if I recall, they were using a local rule ......

I am not confusing lift, clean, place with embedded ball...... I realize that they are two entirely different situations.....

so Kevin, are you saying that if no local rule is in effect, it is your opinion that a embedded ball in the rough would indeed get free relief????
[/quote]

NO!
[/quote]

ok, so I am to believe you feel a embedded ball in the rough is to be played where it lies with no entitlement to relief??????

[imaplus3wannaplay]

I hate that they changed the ability to identify your ball in a hazard. I have had three tournament scenarios where I could have hit a free practice shot from a plugged bunker lie since that rule change.

[OneBowTie]

Men, believe me I am not trying to argue or make a point..... I am once again baffle how a rule that you would think most should have a clear understanding about.... is so far anything but clear.... and so far most have posted..... IN THEIR OPINION.....which I find puzzling about the RULES OF GOLF.... they are anything but understandable......

[imaplus3wannaplay]

This topic could be a lot more fun if we were asking rules questions and trying to do a little trivia. I love having my rules knowledge tested and I'm sure others do as well.

[Sawgrass]

OneBowTie,

I appreciate that you may be frustrated with this issue of an embedded ball in the rough when no local rule is in place. You got an official ruling which said that free relief should be granted. I said that's wrong. Kevin says it's wrong as well. While I'm confident that Kevin and I are right, there is no reason for you to trust two people on the internet you've never met. Given that situation I'd advise you to email the USGA. They will give you an answer you can take to the bank. If you find anything interesting in their response, please share it here, because we are all endlessly interested.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='25 February 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1267150346' post='2277708']
This topic could be a lot more fun if we were asking rules questions and trying to do a little trivia. I love having my rules knowledge tested and I'm sure others do as well.
[/quote]

I find this like a trivia game....where nobody agree's and who's right....

If I read your post correctly, you are saying that a embedded ball is entitled to free relief anywhere through the green......

and when I read others.... they are saying no, unless its being taken as a local ruling

and once again, this is a rule that should or does come into play often, I know that many courses can be wet when players are playing, and some of the wettest places on courses can be just off the fairway next to some standing water, where its not actually standing water, but a ball could/would plug rather easily.....

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='25 February 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1267150346' post='2277708']
This topic could be a lot more fun if we were asking rules questions and trying to do a little trivia. I love having my rules knowledge tested and I'm sure others do as well.
[/quote]


Imaplus3wannaplay, have you ever tried this?

[url="http://www.usga.org/RulesQuiz/rules_quizzes.html"]http://www.usga.org/RulesQuiz/rules_quizzes.html[/url]

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='25 February 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1267150550' post='2277715']
OneBowTie,

I appreciate that you may be frustrated with this issue of an embedded ball in the rough when no local rule is in place. You got an official ruling which said that free relief should be granted. I said that's wrong. Kevin says it's wrong as well. While I'm confident that Kevin and I are right, there is no reason for you to trust two people on the internet you've never met. Given that situation I'd advise you to email the USGA. They will give you an answer you can take to the bank. If you find anything interesting in their response, please share it here, because we are all endlessly interested.
[/quote]

I find this to be just another USGA rule that doesn't seem to be so clear after all..... I actually greatly respect your and Kevin's opinion and interpretation of not only this rule, but others.... its not too hard to follow along on the boards and recognize what posters seem to excel in what areas, and I am have confidence that both you and Kevin are some of the more knowledgeable when it comes to rules.....

with that being said, the other poster, plus3 seems to think that embedded balls are entitled to relief through the green....

I have emailed the USGA on the embedded ball issue and will gladly post up any answers I receive back from them......

I simply wish that the rules would be written for GOLFERS to understand more easily....... the rules of golf are harder to interpret then the IRS regulations....

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1267150798' post='2277724']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='25 February 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1267150346' post='2277708']
This topic could be a lot more fun if we were asking rules questions and trying to do a little trivia. I love having my rules knowledge tested and I'm sure others do as well.
[/quote]

I find this like a trivia game....where nobody agree's and who's right....

If I read your post correctly, you are saying that a embedded ball is entitled to free relief anywhere through the green......

and when I read others.... they are saying no, unless its being taken as a local ruling

and once again, this is a rule that should or does come into play often, I know that many courses can be wet when players are playing, and some of the wettest places on courses can be just off the fairway next to some standing water, where its not actually standing water, but a ball could/would plug rather easily.....
[/quote]

I didn't want pipe up about it, but what they don't realize is that before "08" "through the green" was a local rule in this case. However, they are reading the rule wrong in this case.

Let me try to explain. The rule is not saying "through the green" for relief. It is saying that any cart path or fairway cut (or lower) anywhere on the course gets relief. It does not say that you are intitled to relief through the green. It says any cart path or short cut through the green.

However, I play a lot of tournament golf and it is very rare that relief is not given. In fact, I've never seen it not given. PGA tourneys all allow relief.

I hope this helps you understand the difference.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 09:26 PM' timestamp='1267151199' post='2277743']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='25 February 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1267150550' post='2277715']
OneBowTie,

I appreciate that you may be frustrated with this issue of an embedded ball in the rough when no local rule is in place. You got an official ruling which said that free relief should be granted. I said that's wrong. Kevin says it's wrong as well. While I'm confident that Kevin and I are right, there is no reason for you to trust two people on the internet you've never met. Given that situation I'd advise you to email the USGA. They will give you an answer you can take to the bank. If you find anything interesting in their response, please share it here, because we are all endlessly interested.
[/quote]

I find this to be just another USGA rule that doesn't seem to be so clear after all..... I actually greatly respect your and Kevin's opinion and interpretation of not only this rule, but others.... its not too hard to follow along on the boards and recognize what posters seem to excel in what areas, and I am have confidence that both you and Kevin are some of the more knowledgeable when it comes to rules.....

with that being said, the other poster, plus3 seems to think that embedded balls are entitled to relief through the green....

I have emailed the USGA on the embedded ball issue and will gladly post up any answers I receive back from them......

I simply wish that the rules would be written for GOLFERS to understand more easily....... the rules of golf are harder to interpret then the IRS regulations....
[/quote]

The decision book clears a lot of the cloudy rules up.

[KevCarter]

I'm going to try one more time.

 

Definition of closely mown = fairway height or less

 

 

Here is the rule:

 

=====================

 

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

=====================

 

 

 

Here is the local rule that may or may not be in effect.

 

 

=====================

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

...

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

 

=====================

 

 

Kevin

[imaplus3wannaplay]

I'm going to try one more time.

 

Definition of closely mown = fairway height or less

 

 

Here is the rule:

 

=====================

 

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

=====================

 

 

 

Here is the local rule that may or may not be in effect.

 

 

=====================

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

...

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

 

=====================

 

 

Kevin

 

Kevin is correct guys. When I said that "through the green" means anywhere on the course not marked a hazard, that is what I meant. The rule in basically saying that any cart path or fairway cut (or lower) anywhere on the course (through the green). It does not say relief through the green.

 

I don't know how else to describe it.

 

They changed this in "08" to make it more clear but they whiffed on that one!

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='25 February 2010 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1267151097' post='2277738']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='25 February 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1267150346' post='2277708']
This topic could be a lot more fun if we were asking rules questions and trying to do a little trivia. I love having my rules knowledge tested and I'm sure others do as well.
[/quote]


Imaplus3wannaplay, have you ever tried this?

[url="http://www.usga.org/RulesQuiz/rules_quizzes.html"]http://www.usga.org/...es_quizzes.html[/url]
[/quote]

I have. I missed one though

[OneBowTie]

I'm going to try one more time.

 

Definition of closely mown = fairway height or less

 

 

Here is the rule:

 

=====================

 

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

=====================

 

 

 

Here is the local rule that may or may not be in effect.

 

 

=====================

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

...

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

 

=====================

 

 

Kevin

 

you can post this a thousand times.... that doesnt make it any clearer......

 

I read through the green.....in blue writing.....and it goes on to say when dropping it must strike part of the course through the green..... and as I keep reading.....I feel that it is indeed saying that basically anywhere on the course, including paths, rough, and mowed areas you get relief..... what I take out of the rule as its written is ....if you are on a embankment and plugged, you must drop it on some part of a mown area.....

 

so as far as simply posting the rule, which has been posted..... and saying here it is...one more time.....that doesn't clear anything up.... at least not for me.....

 

you posted that you didn't agree with the free relief.... so I that only leaves the other option that you feel the rule is clear to you that you get no relief outside of the fairway...... that I understand if you say it... I don't understand posting the rule and saying here it is, hope this clears it up.....

 

sorry for the confusion.... and I am not arguing .... Like I said, I respect you and sawgrass's interpretation skills..... this is merely a point of where I and apparently not only me, feel that the rule is not clear.... but rather contradictive

[imaplus3wannaplay]

I'm going to try one more time.

 

Definition of closely mown = fairway height or less

 

 

Here is the rule:

 

=====================

 

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

=====================

 

 

 

Here is the local rule that may or may not be in effect.

 

 

=====================

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

...

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

 

=====================

 

 

Kevin

 

you can post this a thousand times.... that doesnt make it any clearer......

 

I read through the green.....in blue writing.....and it goes on to say when dropping it must strike part of the course through the green..... and as I keep reading.....I feel that it is indeed saying that basically anywhere on the course, including paths, rough, and mowed areas you get relief..... what I take out of the rule as its written is ....if you are on a embankment and plugged, you must drop it on some part of a mown area.....

 

so as far as simply posting the rule, which has been posted..... and saying here it is...one more time.....that doesn't clear anything up.... at least not for me.....

 

you posted that you didn't agree with the free relief.... so I that only leaves the other option that you feel the rule is clear to you that you get no relief outside of the fairway...... that I understand if you say it... I don't understand posting the rule and saying here it is, hope this clears it up.....

 

sorry for the confusion.... and I am not arguing .... Like I said, I respect you and sawgrass's interpretation skills..... this is merely a point of where I and apparently not only me, feel that the rule is not clear.... but rather contradictive

 

You are just reading it wrong. Nowhere does it say "entitled to relief through the green".

 

It says... " ground in any closely mown area through the green". Through the green is referring to the closely mown area. So it is saying that you get relief from any closely mown area anywhere on the course, and not relief anywhere on the course.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1267152563' post='2277799']
you can post this a thousand times.... that doesnt make it any clearer......

[/quote]

My apologies, just trying to help. It just seems very clear to me. I guess I've just been through it so many times I can't see the problems you are seeing. Hopefully the USGA will be able to respond in a clearer manner. I look forward to hearing what you learn.

Kevin

[OneBowTie]

I'm going to try one more time.

 

Definition of closely mown = fairway height or less

 

 

Here is the rule:

 

=====================

 

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

=====================

 

 

 

Here is the local rule that may or may not be in effect.

 

 

=====================

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

...

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

 

=====================

 

 

Kevin

 

Kevin is correct guys. When I said that "through the green" means anywhere on the course not marked a hazard, that is what I meant. The rule in basically saying that any cart path or fairway cut (or lower) anywhere on the course (through the green). It does not say relief through the green.

 

I don't know how else to describe it.

 

They changed this in "08" to make it more clear but they whiffed on that one!

 

when I sit back and read this after you explained it to me.... I actually do see that It MAY be easier to interpret.... however, I still feel golf rules are written like IRS REGS.... meaning you ask 5 so called experts and your liable to get 5 different opinions....

 

thanks everybody for the input......

 

My only wish is that I could read and understand the rules better.... I truely would love to play by the rules more often, but Its hard when so even rules official give out wrong rulings and influence my opinion on how to play.... I guess I have a better appreciation for the masses then ever....

 

again, thanks everybody

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='25 February 2010 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1267153022' post='2277819']
[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1267152563' post='2277799']
you can post this a thousand times.... that doesnt make it any clearer......

[/quote]

My apologies, just trying to help. It just seems very clear to me. I guess I've just been through it so many times I can't see the problems you are seeing. Hopefully the USGA will be able to respond in a clearer manner. I look forward to hearing what you learn.

Kevin
[/quote]

no, thank you again.... I admit, I WAS NOT GETTING IT..... I was focusing on the blue writing and not picking up on how to interpret before that.... for whatever reason, plus3 said something and the light went off for me....

Please, just because I am not getting it.....I still want to know your interpretations and how or where I am missing the points.....

thanks again...... sorry if I am coming across as anything other then appreciative....because I only want to know the rule so I and others can play the correct way.....

thanks again

[OneBowTie]

I'm going to try one more time.

 

Definition of closely mown = fairway height or less

 

 

Here is the rule:

 

=====================

 

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

=====================

 

 

 

Here is the local rule that may or may not be in effect.

 

 

=====================

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

...

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

 

=====================

 

 

Kevin

 

you can post this a thousand times.... that doesnt make it any clearer......

 

I read through the green.....in blue writing.....and it goes on to say when dropping it must strike part of the course through the green..... and as I keep reading.....I feel that it is indeed saying that basically anywhere on the course, including paths, rough, and mowed areas you get relief..... what I take out of the rule as its written is ....if you are on a embankment and plugged, you must drop it on some part of a mown area.....

 

so as far as simply posting the rule, which has been posted..... and saying here it is...one more time.....that doesn't clear anything up.... at least not for me.....

 

you posted that you didn't agree with the free relief.... so I that only leaves the other option that you feel the rule is clear to you that you get no relief outside of the fairway...... that I understand if you say it... I don't understand posting the rule and saying here it is, hope this clears it up.....

 

sorry for the confusion.... and I am not arguing .... Like I said, I respect you and sawgrass's interpretation skills..... this is merely a point of where I and apparently not only me, feel that the rule is not clear.... but rather contradictive

 

You are just reading it wrong. Nowhere does it say "entitled to relief through the green".

 

It says... " ground in any closely mown area through the green". Through the green is referring to the closely mown area. So it is saying that you get relief from any closely mown area anywhere on the course, and not relief anywhere on the course.

 

yes you are correct.... I was reading it wrong.... and for whatever reason, focused on the blue and didn't see the tree through the forrest......

 

thanks for sticking in there and pointing it out.... I appreciate it.....

[KevCarter]

you can post this a thousand times.... that doesnt make it any clearer......

 

 

My apologies, just trying to help. It just seems very clear to me. I guess I've just been through it so many times I can't see the problems you are seeing. Hopefully the USGA will be able to respond in a clearer manner. I look forward to hearing what you learn.

 

Kevin

 

no, thank you again.... I admit, I WAS NOT GETTING IT..... I was focusing on the blue writing and not picking up on how to interpret before that.... for whatever reason, plus3 said something and the light went off for me....

 

Please, just because I am not getting it.....I still want to know your interpretations and how or where I am missing the points.....

 

thanks again...... sorry if I am coming across as anything other then appreciative....because I only want to know the rule so I and others can play the correct way.....

 

thanks again

 

Thank goodness, its Miller Time again!!!

 

Kevin

[OneBowTie]

yes.... it is indeed HIGH LIFE time.....lol

[imaplus3wannaplay]

I'm going to try one more time.

 

Definition of closely mown = fairway height or less

 

 

Here is the rule:

 

=====================

 

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

=====================

 

 

 

Here is the local rule that may or may not be in effect.

 

 

=====================

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

...

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

 

=====================

 

 

Kevin

 

Kevin is correct guys. When I said that "through the green" means anywhere on the course not marked a hazard, that is what I meant. The rule in basically saying that any cart path or fairway cut (or lower) anywhere on the course (through the green). It does not say relief through the green.

 

I don't know how else to describe it.

 

They changed this in "08" to make it more clear but they whiffed on that one!

 

when I sit back and read this after you explained it to me.... I actually do see that It MAY be easier to interpret.... however, I still feel golf rules are written like IRS REGS.... meaning you ask 5 so called experts and your liable to get 5 different opinions....

 

thanks everybody for the input......

 

My only wish is that I could read and understand the rules better.... I truely would love to play by the rules more often, but Its hard when so even rules official give out wrong rulings and influence my opinion on how to play.... I guess I have a better appreciation for the masses then ever....

 

again, thanks everybody

 

The problem is that most "rules officials" and club pros really know very little about the rules and are too proud to admit they are wrong on something. I had a similar scenerio cost me a pretty big tourney win a few years back. It was an abnormal turf condition ruling that went against me and cost me 2 strokes. I lost by 1. I sent a letter to the USGA who sent the tournament committee a letter telling them they were wrong. I received a letter back from the tourney committee chair that basically called me a bigot and trouble maker. I vowed to never play in it again. It was a six county amateur tourney that over 300 players try to qualify for. You would think that a tourney that large would have better rules officials and be ran by more professional individuals.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

Do one of you have a miller light for me?

[OneBowTie]

plus 3..... sorry to hear about your experience..... believe me, I am not above admitting wrong.... but I will be the first to admit, and perhaps its just me, I find many rules to be leave various interpretations to them.....

I appreciate all you guys sticking in on this thread and pointing out to a hard head like me what and where I was missing it.....

I think if we were all in person, it might be easier to explain or see that the conversation is friendly and wanting it to be educational..... at times on the internet, it looks like somebody is being difficult, and I hope that is not how I was coming across.... I simply wasn't getting it....

good luck in your future tourneys and I hope you go back and claim the title that should have been yours .....

[imaplus3wannaplay]

I agree with both of you. There is nothing wrong with a good constructive debate. The rules can be a fun thing to debate. I really understand where Kevin is coming from. I have been playing competitive golf most of my life and I too feel that the rules are close to me.

I do think you should pick up the decisions book if you don't already have one. Has the 2010 decisions book been released yet?

[Sawgrass]

OneBowTie,

While you would think I'd simply be happy to hear that you understand this issue now, I'm instead going to attempt to take the discussion one step further with the goal of making your newfound understanding more clear for you.

Here is a definition:


[b][url=""][/url]Through the Green[/b]
"[i]Through the green[/i]" is the whole area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url] except:

[indent]a. The [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#TeeingGround"][i]teeing ground[/i][/url] and [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green[/i][/url] of the hole being played; and

b. All [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"]hazards[/url][/i] on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url].

[/indent]Here is the rule we've been discussing that I believe you have been confounded by:



[b]25-2. Embedded Ball[/b]
A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url] may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url]. "Closely mown area" means any area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course,[/i][/url] including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.




Now let me try to help. The rules might have been written to simply say, "A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area [I eliminate a few words here] may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty . . ." I suspect that if they had been written as I just wrote them (eliminating the phrase "through the green") you would have easily understood that an embedded ball in the rough, which is certainly not "closely mown" wouldn't qualify for free relief.

You might then ask why the rules instead added the phrase "through the green", which may seem to have added confusion. The reason I believe they did this is because there are times when there is closely mown area in a hazard -- for instance inside the red or yellow line on a well manicured water hazard. I believe that the rules makers didn't want to give you free relief from an embedded ball if it was in a hazard, and therefore chose to add that phrase to remove some areas from the relief.

Full disclosure here -- I don't believe there is any official way of actually knowing why a rule was written as it was,
I'm just offering my suspicion of why in a way that makes sense to me.

(I hope this helped rather than hurt the clarity situation here. In any case, to properly understand the sometimes complicated rules you must also precisely understand the formal definitions of the words they use, which are very specific to the rules of golf and not necessarily the common English language uses of the words.)














[b][url=""][/url][/b]

[indent]

[/indent]

[imaplus3wannaplay]

I agree with what you are saying sawgrass, and I think he gets it now. Funny how you took that out. They actually changed that to make it more clear. Guess they screwed the pooch on that one.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='25 February 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1267159396' post='2278105']
OneBowTie,

While you would think I'd simply be happy to hear that you understand this issue now, I'm instead going to attempt to take the discussion one step further with the goal of making your newfound understanding more clear for you.

Here is a definition:


[b]Through the Green[/b]
"[i]Through the green[/i]" is the whole area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url] except:

[indent]a. The [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#TeeingGround"][i]teeing ground[/i][/url] and [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green[/i][/url] of the hole being played; and

b. All [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"]hazards[/url][/i] on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url].

[/indent]Here is the rule we've been discussing that I believe you have been confounded by:



[b]25-2. Embedded Ball[/b]
A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url] may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url]. "Closely mown area" means any area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course,[/i][/url] including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.




Now let me try to help. The rules might have been written to simply say, "A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area [I eliminate a few words here] may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty . . ." I suspect that if they had been written as I just wrote them (eliminating the phrase "through the green") you would have easily understood that an embedded ball in the rough, which is certainly not "closely mown" wouldn't qualify for free relief.

You might then ask why the rules instead added the phrase "through the green", which may seem to have added confusion. The reason I believe they did this is because there are times when there is closely mown area in a hazard -- for instance inside the red or yellow line on a well manicured water hazard. I believe that the rules makers didn't want to give you free relief from an embedded ball if it was in a hazard, and therefore chose to add that phrase to remove some areas from the relief.

Full disclosure here -- I don't believe there is any official way of actually knowing why a rule was written as it was,
I'm just offering my suspicion of why in a way that makes sense to me.

(I hope this helped rather than hurt the clarity situation here. In any case, to properly understand the sometimes complicated rules you must also precisely understand the formal definitions of the words they use, which are very specific to the rules of golf and not necessarily the common English language uses of the words.)
















[indent]

[/indent]
[/quote]



thanks..... I do believe that not only this rule.... but many many other USGA rules are confusingly written.... I do understand the way you worded it..... but your wording with simply a addition of "no ball in a hazard is entitled to free relief" or something to that matter would make it much easier to understand....

again, I appreciate all of you guys continuing to discuss and bring light to this and any other rule...... its always easier to give up discussion when somebody isn't getting it..... but I myself appreciate the education as I would hope anyone else reading would too.....

thanks again