Far out Rules of Golf

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='bermuda' date='12 February 2010 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1265993476' post='2246392']
Seems inequitable that I could put my club or a towel down on the green behind the hole, putt my ball into it, call it an accident and take one stroke, but if I lay the flagstick down and putt my ball into it, it's two strokes (rule 17-3).

Or am I not reading rules correctly?
[/quote]

You're right about the flagstick rule, wrong about the club or towel "cheat", since no one would let you get away with calling it an accident:


[b]1-2. Exerting Influence on Ball[/b]
A player or [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Caddie"][i]caddie[/i][/url] must not take any action to influence the position or the movement of a ball except in accordance with the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i]Rules[/i][/url].
(Removal of loose impediment — see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14298#23-1"]23-1[/url].)
(Removal of movable obstruction — see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14300#24-1"]24-1[/url].)

*Penalty for Breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14254#1-2"]1-2[/url]: [u]Match play[/u] — Loss of hole; [u]Stroke play[/u] — Two strokes.
*In the case of a serious breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14254#1-2"]1-2[/url], the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Committee"][i]Committee [/i][/url]may impose a penalty of disqualification.

Note: A player is deemed to have committed a serious breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14254#1-2"]1-2[/url] if the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Committee"][i]Committee[/i][/url] considers that his act of influencing the position or movement of the ball has allowed him or another player to gain a significant advantage or has placed another player, other than his [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Partner"][i]partner[/i][/url], at a significant disadvantage.

[grabthepin]

The only unjust Rule I believe is the ball moving after address on the putting green. I'm glad to see this Rule is looking like being modified for the next revision of the Rules.

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='OpusX20' date='10 February 2010 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1265867508' post='2243179']
[quote name='bigred90gt' date='10 February 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1265861258' post='2242975']
I think one of the worst rules in golf is not being able to fix any imperfections on the greens except ball marks. If I drag my feet on the green, the group behind me is left to play in my mess. This really only effects tournaments, since if I am playing a high traffic muni, I'm not going to putt through spike marks. But, I have had to putt through all kinds of stuff in tourney's.
[/quote]


There is no rule that prohibits you fixing spike marks, or other green damage, after you have holed out. If you acccidentally drag your feet across the green (even in a tournament) you are free (and frankly expected) to fix it.
[/quote]

I guess I should have said that differently. If the group in front of me drags their feet on the green, I shouldnt have to putt through it. I am aware that I can fix it AFTER I hole out, but that does me no good when I have to putt through it. if someone hits the green with their club and doesnt fix it, same thing, I have to putt through their hole. This rule is ridiculous.

[offapex]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='11 February 2010 - 07:17 AM' timestamp='1265901461' post='2243610']
[quote name='tjy355' date='10 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265862346' post='2243023']
. . . There is actually no rule that prohibits moving a ball from a divot, merely the lack of a rule that grants relief.

[/quote]

Getting technical here, but there is a rule that explicitly prohibits you from randomly moving a ball from a divot, or from anywhere else for that matter:


[b]13-1. General[/b]
The ball must be played as it lies, except as otherwise provided in the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i]Rules[/i][/url].

Penalty For Breach of Rule:
[u]Match play[/u] - Loss of hole; [u]Stroke play[/u] - Two strokes.



[/quote]

you can take an unplayable lie (with penalty) whenever and wherever you want. your ball could be sitting perfectly in the fairway and you can say "unplayable". so if you dont like the divot, say it's unplayable and take the penalty.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='tjy355' date='10 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265862346' post='2243023']
[quote name='amerza18' date='10 February 2010 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1265815292' post='2241005']
I personally think the single worst rule is having to play a ball out of a sanded or non-replaced divot in the middle of the fairway. I feel you are unfairly punished for hitting a quality shot.

[/quote]

Yeah, but that's just golf man! There is actually no rule that prohibits moving a ball from a divot, merely the lack of a rule that grants relief.

Even if we did away with all the rules, what would remain is the basic premise of the game: "Play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it."
[/quote]


[quote name='shift' date='15 February 2010 - 02:52 AM' timestamp='1266220378' post='2252471']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='11 February 2010 - 07:17 AM' timestamp='1265901461' post='2243610']
[quote name='tjy355' date='10 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265862346' post='2243023']
. . . There is actually no rule that prohibits moving a ball from a divot, merely the lack of a rule that grants relief.

[/quote]

Getting technical here, but there is a rule that explicitly prohibits you from randomly moving a ball from a divot, or from anywhere else for that matter:


[b]13-1. General[/b]
The ball must be played as it lies, except as otherwise provided in the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i]Rules[/i][/url].

Penalty For Breach of Rule:
[u]Match play[/u] - Loss of hole; [u]Stroke play[/u] - Two strokes.



[/quote]

you can take an unplayable lie (with penalty) whenever and wherever you want. your ball could be sitting perfectly in the fairway and you can say "unplayable". so if you dont like the divot, say it's unplayable and take the penalty.
[/quote]

You'll get no disagreement from me, Shift. I believe in his original post, TJY was lamenting getting no free relief from a divot in a fairway. One can make a credible argument that the rule should be changed.

I was simply making the technical debate that there is in fact a rule which prevents getting free relief, rather than simply a convention.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='15 February 2010 - 08:22 AM' timestamp='1266243765' post='2252658']
You'll get no disagreement from me, Shift. I believe in his original post, TJY was lamenting getting no free relief from a divot in a fairway. One can make a credible argument that the rule should be changed.

I was simply making the technical debate that there is in fact a rule which prevents getting free relief, rather than simply a convention.
[/quote]

I'm not saying right or wrong on the rule, but it doesn't have to be fair...

Twice in my career I have had to take unplayable lies for balls in a divot in the middle of the fairway. Both times they were very deep, with the ball in the back of the divot where I couldn't get a club on it. I couldn't take any chance because both were also around water. Not fun.

Thank goodness these days we have sand filled divots, that would have felt like a great lie in those two circumstances!

Cheers,
Kevin

[Sawgrass]

I was playing in a tournament last year, and the fairway of a low-lying hole was designated lift clean and place.

I hit into a dry area of the fairway and landed in a divot hole. My fellow competitor/marker came over and told me to take a free drop since my lie was so unfair. It rattled me to hear him say that, and I gently told him that the rules preclude me from taking a free drop from a divot hole, that I wouldn't do so, and that I wouldn't be able to let a fellow competitor do so either. (I find it challenging to tell someone who is trying to be nice to you that they have the "wrong attitude".)

I got so wrapped up in this that I completely forgot that this particular fairway had the lift/clean/place rule in effect! I ended up hitting my shot only about 30 yards, and didn't figure out until the next day that I had missed an opportunity. I wish there was a rule granting free relief from being stupid.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='15 February 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1266243765' post='2252658']
[quote name='tjy355' date='10 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265862346' post='2243023']
[quote name='amerza18' date='10 February 2010 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1265815292' post='2241005']
I personally think the single worst rule is having to play a ball out of a sanded or non-replaced divot in the middle of the fairway. I feel you are unfairly punished for hitting a quality shot.

[/quote]

Yeah, but that's just golf man! There is actually no rule that prohibits moving a ball from a divot, merely the lack of a rule that grants relief.

Even if we did away with all the rules, what would remain is the basic premise of the game: "Play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it."
[/quote]


[quote name='shift' date='15 February 2010 - 02:52 AM' timestamp='1266220378' post='2252471']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='11 February 2010 - 07:17 AM' timestamp='1265901461' post='2243610']
[quote name='tjy355' date='10 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265862346' post='2243023']
. . . There is actually no rule that prohibits moving a ball from a divot, merely the lack of a rule that grants relief.

[/quote]

Getting technical here, but there is a rule that explicitly prohibits you from randomly moving a ball from a divot, or from anywhere else for that matter:


[b]13-1. General[/b]
The ball must be played as it lies, except as otherwise provided in the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i]Rules[/i][/url].

Penalty For Breach of Rule:
[u]Match play[/u] - Loss of hole; [u]Stroke play[/u] - Two strokes.



[/quote]

you can take an unplayable lie (with penalty) whenever and wherever you want. your ball could be sitting perfectly in the fairway and you can say "unplayable". so if you dont like the divot, say it's unplayable and take the penalty.
[/quote]

You'll get no disagreement from me, Shift. I believe in his original post, TJY was lamenting getting no free relief from a divot in a fairway. One can make a credible argument that the rule should be changed.

I was simply making the technical debate that there is in fact a rule which prevents getting free relief, rather than simply a convention.
[/quote]

It wasn't I that was lamenting the lack of relief for a ball in a divot. I pointed out that [i]it's golf.[/i]

And Sawgrass is correct of course, there is a rule that prevents it, I should have said there is not a rule specifically covering divots. Indeed, the basic premise of golf is that you play the ball as it lies. That simple rule has been watered down with so many exceptions and exemptions that allow the golfer to put his hands on the ball that it is no wonder many people EXPECT that they should be able to pick up their ball at any situation.

Golf is played outdoors in a variety of conditions so there should be NO EXPECTATION of a perfect lie. Divots are just one of thousands of imperfections one might encounter while playing golf. What about an uneven clump of grass? A hump? A bump? A bare spot? etc etc.

I don't believe there is any credible argument that the rule should be changed (offering relief from a divot).

[Sawgrass]

 

It wasn't I that was lamenting the lack of relief for a ball in a divot. I pointed out that it's golf. . .

 

 

I don't believe there is any credible argument that the rule should be changed (offering relief from a divot).

 

Sorry TJY, you are of course correct, I should have said that Amerza was unhappy with the rule, not you.

 

As to the credibility of the agrument that one should get relief, while I'm also happy with the rule as it stands, I believe I read once that Jack Nicklaus belives that a divot hole, particularly a sand-filled remaining depression, should inherently be considered ground under repair. His argument didn't sound "crazy" to me, so I deemed it credible -- however misguided the man might be in this particular instance.

 

 

 

[Newby]

This topic (divot holes) comes up regularly.
It's possible (just) that the RBs might be more sympathetic if someone could come up with a form of words which would indisputably tell us the difference between a divot hole and any other large or small blemish in the surface.
I have raised this challenge a dozen times or more but no takers so far.

[KevCarter]

This topic (divot holes) comes up regularly.

It's possible (just) that the RBs might be more sympathetic if someone could come up with a form of words which would indisputably tell us the difference between a divot hole and any other large or small blemish in the surface.

I have raised this challenge a dozen times or more but no takers so far.

 

In my opinion, maybe not even so humble this time, you haven't had any takers because it can't be done effectively.

 

Kevin

[Sawgrass]

This topic (divot holes) comes up regularly.

It's possible (just) that the RBs might be more sympathetic if someone could come up with a form of words which would indisputably tell us the difference between a divot hole and any other large or small blemish in the surface.

I have raised this challenge a dozen times or more but no takers so far.

 

In my opinion, maybe not even so humble this time, you haven't had any takers because it can't be done effectively.

 

Kevin

 

Newby and Kevin,

 

I don't claim to know for sure, but it's my bet that the RBs failure to change this rule has more to do with their desire to adhere to the goal of "play it as it lies" than it does with difficult wording. The rules already expect us to know what a "pitch mark" is simply by calling it that -- and they even expect us to know the difference between the pitch mark our own ball makes and a pitch mark left behind by someone else.

 

"Pitch Mark" isn't even in the definitions, although it is used in the rules:

 

 

25-2. Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

 

 

[oldironman]

Bring back the stymie.

[phil75070]

The most stupid Decision I have come across involves a towel and a cactus. If one finds they must straddle a cactus to play a shot it is OK to wrap a towel around one's leg(s). However, if one drapes the towel over the cactus one is penalized. Same situation, same towel, used for the same purpose - two different results.

As for divots, I play approximately 100 rounds per year and can count the times my ball has to be played from a divot on one hand and the course I play has plenty of divots, believe me.

[Newby]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='15 February 2010 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1266264186' post='2253364']
Newby and Kevin,

The rules already expect us to know what a "pitch mark" is simply by calling it that -- and they even expect us to know the difference between the pitch mark our own ball makes and a pitch mark left behind by someone else.

[/quote]

There is difference. A ball sitting in a divot hole is unlikey to be the divot hole made by the player himslif.
But an embedded ball is virtually certain to be sitting in its own pitchmark.

On the green, an inverted, dome-shaped hole (however shallow) is in all probability a pitchmark.

I've only ended up in a divot a couple of times. After the first I took a lesson from the assistant pro on how to play out of them. It worked but I haven't been in one since.

But I agree with your comment re the RBs.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='mat562' date='11 February 2010 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1265874246' post='2243268']
If I live to be 100 I'll never understand why a player isn't allowed to tap down spike marks on the greens. Really horrible damage that's caused by the Herman Munsters of the world - or at least ones who don't consider the rest of the field after they've holed out - put the following group at a distinct disadvantage. Allowing players to tidy up marks wouldn't unduly delay play, nor would it give any competitor any sort of advantage. Why the rule's the way it is is beyond me.

[color="#FF0000"]Another one that baffles me is why you get relief for an embedded ball only on close mown areas and not in the rough. I know a plugged ball in long grass only happens once in a blue moon, but it strikes me as a daft rule[/color]. The European Tour Tournament Committee seem to agree with me and have a local rule in effect for tournament play that flies in the face of the R&A's stance.
[/quote]

interesting, It was not too long ago that I was playing in a tourney...... with wet conditions...... one of the guys in the group had his ball embed in the rough, actually more then once this happened...... he called us competitors over and declared he had a embedded ball and was going to take a drop..... one of the fellows in the group said that embedded ball rule did not apply in rough, and the guy insisted that indeed it did apply....bottom line, he played two balls and after round went into club house for OFFICIAL ruling.... the rules official, said that yes he was entitled to FREE relief even though it was in rough and went on to quote this rule

[color=#474747][size=2]
[b]25-2. Embedded Ball[/b]
[color=#7F7F7F][size=3]A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url] may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the[url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url]. "Closely mown area" means any area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course,[/i][/url] [color="#FF0000"]including paths through the rough[/color], cut to fairway height or less.[/size][/color]


[size="3"][color="#7F7F7F"][size=3]when I read this rule..... I see the red highlight and would interpret that to mean ....yes you are entitled to relief in rough.....[/size][/color][/size]
[size="3"][color="#7F7F7F"][size=3]
[/size][/color][/size]
[size="3"][color="#7F7F7F"][size=3]
[/size][/color][/size][url=""][/url][/size][/color]

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='15 February 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1266246250' post='2252704']
I was playing in a tournament last year, and the fairway of a low-lying hole was designated lift clean and place.

I hit into a dry area of the fairway and landed in a divot hole. My fellow competitor/marker came over and told me to take a free drop since my lie was so unfair. It rattled me to hear him say that, and I gently told him that the rules preclude me from taking a free drop from a divot hole, that I wouldn't do so, and that I wouldn't be able to let a fellow competitor do so either. (I find it challenging to tell someone who is trying to be nice to you that they have the "wrong attitude".)

I got so wrapped up in this that I completely forgot that this particular fairway had the[color="#FF0000"] lift/clean/place rule in effect! I ended up hitting my shot only about 30 yards, and didn't figure out until the next day that I had missed an opportunity.[/color] I wish there was a rule granting free relief from being stupid.
[/quote]

Am I missing something here??? when you say that the lift, clean, replace rule was in effect...... would that be rule 20-3a?? I thought lift, clean, and replace ment you were allowed to mark the ball, lift it and clean it...then PLACE it back in its original spot.... I don't see how this would have actually gotten you free relief from the divot hole..... Is there another rule that I am missing here....

thanks for help on this.....

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='amerza18' date='11 February 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1265865409' post='2243140']
[quote name='tjy355' date='10 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265862346' post='2243023']
[quote name='amerza18' date='10 February 2010 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1265815292' post='2241005']
I personally think the single worst rule is having to play a ball out of a sanded or non-replaced divot in the middle of the fairway. I feel you are unfairly punished for hitting a quality shot.

[/quote]

Yeah, but that's just golf man! There is actually no rule that prohibits moving a ball from a divot, merely the lack of a rule that grants relief.

Even if we did away with all the rules, what would remain is the basic premise of the game: "Play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it."
[/quote]

I do understand the basic premise of play the ball where it lies and the course as you find it. But something seems out of whack if you hit the ball where it sits on a cart path 15 yards off the fairway and get relief, but you hit the ball in the middle of the fairway and lands in a non-replaced or sanded divot. The rule just rubs me the wrong way, but I abide by it.
[/quote]
But there is nothing [i]unfair[/i] about the rule. We all play by it and we all have a chance of being in a divot at some point.

The rules of golf are not about leveling the playing field, but about ensuring that we all play by the same rules. The equity comes in over the course of a lifetime of golf... that is part of the uniqueness of the game. Today you get a bad break, tomorrow the ball hits a sprinkler head and bounces onto the green.

It just isn't a game where you can look at a single shot for equity and fairness. That's really not what it is about.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1267137144' post='2277163']
Am I missing something here??? when you say that the lift, clean, replace rule was in effect...... would that be rule 20-3a?? I thought lift, clean, and replace ment you were allowed to mark the ball, lift it and clean it...then PLACE it back in its original spot.... I don't see how this would have actually gotten you free relief from the divot hole..... Is there another rule that I am missing here....

thanks for help on this.....
[/quote]

Rule 20-3 is basically just a tutorial for how to replace your ball after marking it. Generally, a local rule for Lift, Clean and Place will give you 6" relief.

Here would be typical wording as per appendix 1.


Kevin


[color=#474747][size=2][color=#474747]c. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"[/color]

[color=#474747][i]Ground under repair[/i] is provided for in Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14302#25"]25[/url], and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#GroundUnderRepair"][i]ground under repair[/i][/url].[/color]

[color=#474747]However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these conditions are so general throughout a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url] that the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Committee"][i]Committee[/i][/url] believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course,[/i][/url] the following Local Rule is recommended:[/color]

[color=#474747]"A ball lying on a closely mown area [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url][or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]than where it originally lay, that is not in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"][i]hazard[/i][/url] and not on a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green.[/i][/url][/color]

[color=#474747]A player may place his ball only once, and it is [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i]in play[/i][/url] when it has been placed (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14292#20-4"]20-4[/url]). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14292#20-3"]20-3d[/url] applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Moved"][i]moves[/i][/url] , there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i]Rule[/i][/url] apply.[/color]

[color=#474747]If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Moved"][i]moves[/i][/url] the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club,[color=#CD2129 !important]he incurs a penalty of one stroke.[/color][/color]

[color=#474747][b]Note:[/b] "Closely mown area" means any area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url], including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.[/color]

[/size][/color]

[OneBowTie]

thanks for the reply Kevin...... I have played places where they said, you may move your ball a club length in your own fairway only..... but I am not sure that would be called lift, clean, and place.....

but I get you if the club actually stated such a rule like you point out.... most of the time, I have heard them say, a club length....or they say....THE LIFT, CLEAN, PLACE rule is in effect....

when watching the tour events on TV, I notice that they always seem to place a tee behind ball before they lift and clean it...then they replace it in the original spot.....

now if i could get your interpretation on the embedded ball rule.....

[KevCarter]

thanks for the reply Kevin...... I have played places where they said, you may move your ball a club length in your own fairway only..... but I am not sure that would be called lift, clean, and place.....

 

but I get you if the club actually stated such a rule like you point out.... most of the time, I have heard them say, a club length....or they say....THE LIFT, CLEAN, PLACE rule is in effect....

 

when watching the tour events on TV, I notice that they always seem to place a tee behind ball before they lift and clean it...then they replace it in the original spot.....

 

now if i could get your interpretation on the embedded ball rule.....

 

OneBowTie,

 

I replied to your PM. Hopefully that will help.

 

Kevin

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='goldfinger007' date='09 February 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1265764229' post='2239899']
The Rules of Golf are meant to govern play and make it fair and equitable for everyone???
How about some of the rules situations on Tour in the last several years that were a direct result of a viewer calling in about certain things? Here's the problem I have with someone being able to do that. Can you call in on a ruling in the NBA or the NFL? There would be some equity to this if every group had a TV camera on them and were open to the same scrutiny as the group being televised.
I contacted the USGA regarding this matter and the answer I got was, "This game is played at a higher level". What kind of arrogant non- answer is that?
The worst shot in golf would have to be the [i]"whiff" [/i]and if you did that on the teebox you would be shooting 2, however; if you hit your drive 300 yds and just 2" off the course you would be shooting 3!
The most recent rule change regarding certainty concerning a ball in a water hazard is really going to cause some problems and especially slow play.
Don't imagine any of the above will change.
[/quote]

I don't imagine that anyone who whiffs knows anything or cares to know anything about the rules. lol

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1267136779' post='2277140']
[color="#474747"][size="2"][b]25-2. Embedded Ball[/b]
[color="#7f7f7f"][size="3"]A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url] may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the[url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url]. "Closely mown area" means any area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course,[/i][/url] [color="#ff0000"]including paths through the rough[/color], cut to fairway height or less.[/size][/color]


[size="3"][color="#7f7f7f"][size="3"]when I read this rule..... I see the red highlight and would interpret that to mean ....yes you are entitled to relief in rough.....[/size][/color][/size]
[/size][/color]
[/quote]

OneBowTie, forgive me if the pm you shared with Kevin already addressed your above question, but for the record I'd like to point out that the admitedly-confusing statement above: [b]"Closely mown area" means any area of the course, [u]including paths through the rough[/u], cut to fairway height or less"[/b] is in my interpretation meant to mean that the narrow walkway "path" sometimes cut to fairway height between a tee and the fairway is part of the closely mown area that qualifies for free relief from an embedded ball. It does not mean that the rough is closely mown area. I believe that in the story you told, the rules offical gave you a bum ruling.


On another of the above topics, your question regarding the tournament I played in had provided "lift, clean and place" options because of rain. They required you to place within one clublength no nearer the hole, which would have easily given me relief from the divot hole had I been aware enough to take advantage of the offer. As to the PGA tour players actions when playing in these conditions, yes, they do mark the original position with a tee, but I'm sure I've seen circumstances where they don't replace it in the same spot. I've even seen them move it from the fringe of the green to actually on the green, and from the rough to the fairway, when circumstances and distances allow. I think, but am not sure, that they are typically given one club length rather than six inches. It's my further understanding that the USGA refuses to permit this rule option in its major championships because they feel that advantages such as those I just described are too great. I'm pretty sure that they didn't even allow lift clean and place at Bethpage last year despite the heavy rains.

Kevin, if you have put down that beer you were talking about in another thread this evening, am I correct here or full of crap?

[KevCarter]

25-2. Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

when I read this rule..... I see the red highlight and would interpret that to mean ....yes you are entitled to relief in rough.....

 

OneBowTie, forgive me if the pm you shared with Kevin already addressed your above question, but for the record I'd like to point out that the admitedly-confusing statement above: "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less" is in my interpretation meant to mean that the narrow walkway "path" sometimes cut to fairway height between a tee and the fairway is part of the closely mown area that qualifies for free relief from an embedded ball. It does not mean that the rough is closely mown area. I believe that in the story you told, the rules offical gave you a bum ruling.

 

 

On another of the above topics, your question regarding the tournament I played in had provided "lift, clean and place" options because of rain. They required you to place within one clublength no nearer the hole, which would have easily given me relief from the divot hole had I been aware enough to take advantage of the offer. As to the PGA tour players actions when playing in these conditions, yes, they do mark the original position with a tee, but I'm sure I've seen circumstances where they don't replace it in the same spot. I've even seen them move it from the fringe of the green to actually on the green, and from the rough to the fairway, when circumstances and distances allow. I think, but am not sure, that they are typically given one club length rather than six inches. It's my further understanding that the USGA refuses to permit this rule option in its major championships because they feel that advantages such as those I just described are too great. I'm pretty sure that they didn't even allow lift clean and place at Bethpage last year despite the heavy rains.

 

Kevin, if you have put down that beer you were talking about in another thread this evening, am I correct here or full of crap?

 

Sawgrass,

 

You are right on as usual. Where the confusion comes is on tour, and at most events in the US, the local rule for embedded ball through the green is commonly in effect.

 

Kevin

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

Rule 25-2 provides relief, without penalty, for a ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in any closely mown areathrough the green. On the putting green, a ball may be lifted and damage caused by the impact of a ball may be repaired (Rules 16-1b and c). When permission to take relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the greenwould be warranted, the following Local Rule is recommended:

 

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

[Sawgrass]

Not to take this too far, but it's useful for everyone to know that the "embedded ball rule" and a "lift clean and place" option are two separate things. For instance, at Bethpage, if your ball plugged in the fairway you got relief, but you didn't have the option to lift clean and place every time you hit.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

I think it's stupid to have to drop on a cart path sloped toward the hazard you are taking relief from just to then take relief from the path. Dumb rule!!!

[OneBowTie]

25-2. Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

when I read this rule..... I see the red highlight and would interpret that to mean ....yes you are entitled to relief in rough.....

 

OneBowTie, forgive me if the pm you shared with Kevin already addressed your above question, but for the record I'd like to point out that the admitedly-confusing statement above: "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less" is in my interpretation meant to mean that the narrow walkway "path" sometimes cut to fairway height between a tee and the fairway is part of the closely mown area that qualifies for free relief from an embedded ball. It does not mean that the rough is closely mown area. I believe that in the story you told, the rules offical gave you a bum ruling.

 

 

On another of the above topics, your question regarding the tournament I played in had provided "lift, clean and place" options because of rain. They required you to place within one clublength no nearer the hole, which would have easily given me relief from the divot hole had I been aware enough to take advantage of the offer. As to the PGA tour players actions when playing in these conditions, yes, they do mark the original position with a tee, but I'm sure I've seen circumstances where they don't replace it in the same spot. I've even seen them move it from the fringe of the green to actually on the green, and from the rough to the fairway, when circumstances and distances allow. I think, but am not sure, that they are typically given one club length rather than six inches. It's my further understanding that the USGA refuses to permit this rule option in its major championships because they feel that advantages such as those I just described are too great. I'm pretty sure that they didn't even allow lift clean and place at Bethpage last year despite the heavy rains.

 

Kevin, if you have put down that beer you were talking about in another thread this evening, am I correct here or full of crap?

 

Sawgrass,

 

You are right on as usual. Where the confusion comes is on tour, and at most events in the US, the local rule for embedded ball through the green is commonly in effect.

 

Kevin

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

Rule 25-2 provides relief, without penalty, for a ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in any closely mown areathrough the green. On the putting green, a ball may be lifted and damage caused by the impact of a ball may be repaired (Rules 16-1b and c). When permission to take relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the greenwould be warranted, the following Local Rule is recommended:

 

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

 

interesting..... how we all seem to interpret the rules differently...... so far everyone has interpreted the embedded ball rule differently...... one says not in rough, but only closely mowed parts which in his opinion is the mowed walkway path.....others have said its from paths to rough, to anywhere else with grass..... I still don't know one way or the other now who is right

 

i see in blue writing above the words...THROUGH THE GREEN.... I thought that meant from tee to green, anywhere you can get to the ball not in a hazard....

[KevCarter]

25-2. Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer thehole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

 

when I read this rule..... I see the red highlight and would interpret that to mean ....yes you are entitled to relief in rough.....

 

OneBowTie, forgive me if the pm you shared with Kevin already addressed your above question, but for the record I'd like to point out that the admitedly-confusing statement above: "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less" is in my interpretation meant to mean that the narrow walkway "path" sometimes cut to fairway height between a tee and the fairway is part of the closely mown area that qualifies for free relief from an embedded ball. It does not mean that the rough is closely mown area. I believe that in the story you told, the rules offical gave you a bum ruling.

 

 

On another of the above topics, your question regarding the tournament I played in had provided "lift, clean and place" options because of rain. They required you to place within one clublength no nearer the hole, which would have easily given me relief from the divot hole had I been aware enough to take advantage of the offer. As to the PGA tour players actions when playing in these conditions, yes, they do mark the original position with a tee, but I'm sure I've seen circumstances where they don't replace it in the same spot. I've even seen them move it from the fringe of the green to actually on the green, and from the rough to the fairway, when circumstances and distances allow. I think, but am not sure, that they are typically given one club length rather than six inches. It's my further understanding that the USGA refuses to permit this rule option in its major championships because they feel that advantages such as those I just described are too great. I'm pretty sure that they didn't even allow lift clean and place at Bethpage last year despite the heavy rains.

 

Kevin, if you have put down that beer you were talking about in another thread this evening, am I correct here or full of crap?

 

Sawgrass,

 

You are right on as usual. Where the confusion comes is on tour, and at most events in the US, the local rule for embedded ball through the green is commonly in effect.

 

Kevin

 

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

a. Relief for Embedded Ball

 

Rule 25-2 provides relief, without penalty, for a ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in any closely mown areathrough the green. On the putting green, a ball may be lifted and damage caused by the impact of a ball may be repaired (Rules 16-1b and c). When permission to take relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the greenwould be warranted, the following Local Rule is recommended:

 

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

 

 

interesting..... how we all seem to interpret the rules differently...... so far everyone has interpreted the embedded ball rule differently...... one says not in rough, but only closely mowed parts which in his opinion is the mowed walkway path.....others have said its from paths to rough, to anywhere else with grass..... I still don't know one way or the other now who is right

 

i see in blue writing above the words...THROUGH THE GREEN.... I thought that meant from tee to green, anywhere you can get to the ball not in a hazard....

 

I think we are all interpreting the rule the same. Where the confusion is coming is with the rule, and the local rule. It's important to separate the two, and know when the local rule is in effect.

 

Kevin

[OneBowTie]

I don't think we are actually on the same page here..... when I read sawgrass response, he says that in a tournament I played in and the official ruled in favor of one of my opponents who asked for and got relief from a embedded ball in the rough, he says that he feels that was a bad ruling..... I actually agree that the guy got free relief on the embedded ball...... there was no local rule in play that day.....

I also feel that perhaps we are all using assumptions on local rules..... some courses do indeed allow local rules, some more liberal then others, such as club length relief vs 6 inches.....

I also have noticed that when I watch the tour play and they envoke the lift, clean, place, unless they use a local rule, I have not seen them place the ball anywhere other then right back in the same spot for the lift, clean, place.... I did notice one year at Pebble, they were moving it roughly a club length, but if I recall, they were using a local rule ......

I am not confusing lift, clean, place with embedded ball...... I realize that they are two entirely different situations.....

so Kevin, are you saying that if no local rule is in effect, it is your opinion that a embedded ball in the rough would indeed get free relief????

[imaplus3wannaplay]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1267136779' post='2277140']
[quote name='mat562' date='11 February 2010 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1265874246' post='2243268']
If I live to be 100 I'll never understand why a player isn't allowed to tap down spike marks on the greens. Really horrible damage that's caused by the Herman Munsters of the world - or at least ones who don't consider the rest of the field after they've holed out - put the following group at a distinct disadvantage. Allowing players to tidy up marks wouldn't unduly delay play, nor would it give any competitor any sort of advantage. Why the rule's the way it is is beyond me.

[color="#ff0000"]Another one that baffles me is why you get relief for an embedded ball only on close mown areas and not in the rough. I know a plugged ball in long grass only happens once in a blue moon, but it strikes me as a daft rule[/color]. The European Tour Tournament Committee seem to agree with me and have a local rule in effect for tournament play that flies in the face of the R&A's stance.
[/quote]

interesting, It was not too long ago that I was playing in a tourney...... with wet conditions...... one of the guys in the group had his ball embed in the rough, actually more then once this happened...... he called us competitors over and declared he had a embedded ball and was going to take a drop..... one of the fellows in the group said that embedded ball rule did not apply in rough, and the guy insisted that indeed it did apply....bottom line, he played two balls and after round went into club house for OFFICIAL ruling.... the rules official, said that yes he was entitled to FREE relief even though it was in rough and went on to quote this rule

[color="#474747"][size="2"]
[b]25-2. Embedded Ball[/b]
[color="#7f7f7f"][size="3"]A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url] may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the[url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url]. "Closely mown area" means any area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course,[/i][/url] [color="#ff0000"]including paths through the rough[/color], cut to fairway height or less.[/size][/color]


[size="3"][color="#7f7f7f"][size="3"]when I read this rule..... I see the red highlight and would interpret that to mean ....yes you are entitled to relief in rough.....[/size][/color][/size]
[size="3"][color="#7f7f7f"] [/color][/size]
[size="3"][color="#7f7f7f"] [/color][/size][/size][/color]
[/quote]

"Through the green" is interpreted by most tournament officials to mean anywhere within the boundaries the course and not marked a hazard.