Far out Rules of Golf

[goldfinger007]

Rules that don't make much sense

The Rules of Golf are meant to govern play and make it fair and equitable for everyone???
How about some of the rules situations on Tour in the last several years that were a direct result of a viewer calling in about certain things? Here's the problem I have with someone being able to do that. Can you call in on a ruling in the NBA or the NFL? There would be some equity to this if every group had a TV camera on them and were open to the same scrutiny as the group being televised.
I contacted the USGA regarding this matter and the answer I got was, "This game is played at a higher level". What kind of arrogant non- answer is that?
The worst shot in golf would have to be the "whiff" and if you did that on the teebox you would be shooting 2, however; if you hit your drive 300 yds and just 2" off the course you would be shooting 3!
The most recent rule change regarding certainty concerning a ball in a water hazard is really going to cause some problems and especially slow play.
Don't imagine any of the above will change.

[BIRD]

what hazard change are you referring to?

[OpusX20]

[quote name='BIRD' date='09 February 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1265764547' post='2239918']
what hazard change are you referring to?
[/quote]

He might be referring to the rule change back in 2008 (I believe) where the USGA/RNA replaced the phrase "reasonable evidence" to "virtually certain" in several rules including 26-1. This change in phrasing [u]could[/u] have an affect in situations like the one Robert Allenby was in at Torrey Pines last week.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='goldfinger007' date='09 February 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1265764229' post='2239899']
The worst shot in golf would have to be the [i]"whiff" [/i]and if you did that on the teebox you would be shooting 2, however; if you hit your drive 300 yds and just 2" off the course you would be shooting 3!

[/quote]

Perhaps you agree that the stroke and distance penalty for hitting out of bounds is appropriate. As far as I'm concerned, it's not unreasonable for the rules to require you to be able to keep your ball on the course. Your errant swing is a stroke, you place it back where you began at the cost of a one stroke penalty, and you're hitting three. Simple and fair.

Regarding your whiff issue, would you feel it was more fair if you were also peanalized a stroke for missing, thereby shooting 3 and equal to an out of bounds shot? As I see it, the flaw in your logic is your position that the worst shot in golf is the whiff. A much worse shot than leaving your ball where it started is hitting your ball someplace you shouldn't. (In baseball, the worst possible swing isn't a whiff, it's hitting into a triple play.)

[dan360]

The "improving your stance"....like when Craig Stadler laid the towel down to keep the mud off his pants.

I mean c'mon....really?

rules are rules, though.

[Socrates]

[quote name='goldfinger007' date='09 February 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1265764229' post='2239899']
The Rules of Golf are meant to govern play and make it fair and equitable for everyone???
How about some of the rules situations on Tour in the last several years that were a direct result of a viewer calling in about certain things? Here's the problem I have with someone being able to do that. Can you call in on a ruling in the NBA or the NFL? There would be some equity to this if every group had a TV camera on them and were open to the same scrutiny as the group being televised.
I contacted the USGA regarding this matter and the answer I got was, "This game is played at a higher level". What kind of arrogant non- answer is that?
The worst shot in golf would have to be the [i]"whiff" [/i]and if you did that on the teebox you would be shooting 2, however; if you hit your drive 300 yds and just 2" off the course you would be shooting 3!
The most recent rule change regarding certainty concerning a ball in a water hazard is really going to cause some problems and especially slow play.
Don't imagine any of the above will change.
[/quote]

Wow! Who peed in your Cornflakes this morning?

Once a Committee is made aware of a possible rule infraction, they have to act on it - regardless of the source. And yes the game of Golf is played at a higher level of integrity than almost any other sport.

I have a feeling the OB rule has been around for a while. Could be wrong though.

The rule change requiring you to identify your ball in a hazard (any hazard) before playing has been around for just over 2 years. If anything it speeds play as it allows you to identify your ball before you play it (if you can play it) and later find out it was the wrong ball. Mark it, ID it and play on. I might need this rule about 2 twice a year... maybe.

[Newby]

[quote name='goldfinger007' date='10 February 2010 - 01:10 AM' timestamp='1265764229' post='2239899']
The worst shot in golf would have to be the [i]"whiff" [/i]and if you did that on the teebox you would be shooting 2, however; if you hit your drive 300 yds and just 2" off the course you would be shooting 3!
[/quote]

If you are capable of driving 300 yards hitting it OB is poor play.
If you are capable of driving 300 yards and you whiff, the embarrassment will be infinitely worse than the penalty.

[quote]Don't imagine any of the above will change.[/quote]

Spot on

[KevCarter]

The Rules of Golf are meant to govern play and make it fair and equitable for everyone???

How about some of the rules situations on Tour in the last several years that were a direct result of a viewer calling in about certain things? Here's the problem I have with someone being able to do that. Can you call in on a ruling in the NBA or the NFL? There would be some equity to this if every group had a TV camera on them and were open to the same scrutiny as the group being televised.

 

 

...

 

Hi GoldFinger,

 

I've always felt the same way about call ins... however, I've discussed this with many professional officials and I always get shot down. Their response to a person has always been they want whatever information they can get their hands on to make the proper decision. It's not about getting caught, but rather, doing the right thing. When put in that context the players I have discussed this with agree with call-ins as well.

 

Hard for us to get our arms around when we're in the easy chair monday morning...

 

 

Kevin

[amerza18]

I personally think the single worst rule is having to play a ball out of a sanded or non-replaced divot in the middle of the fairway. I feel you are unfairly punished for hitting a quality shot.

It cost Payne Stewart a US Open in 1998 at Olympic, but thank goodness he won it the very next year at Pinehurst.

[bigred90gt]

I think one of the worst rules in golf is not being able to fix any imperfections on the greens except ball marks. If I drag my feet on the green, the group behind me is left to play in my mess. This really only effects tournaments, since if I am playing a high traffic muni, I'm not going to putt through spike marks. But, I have had to putt through all kinds of stuff in tourney's.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='amerza18' date='10 February 2010 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1265815292' post='2241005']
I personally think the single worst rule is having to play a ball out of a sanded or non-replaced divot in the middle of the fairway. I feel you are unfairly punished for hitting a quality shot.

[/quote]

Yeah, but that's just golf man! There is actually no rule that prohibits moving a ball from a divot, merely the lack of a rule that grants relief.

Even if we did away with all the rules, what would remain is the basic premise of the game: "Play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it."

[amerza18]

[quote name='tjy355' date='10 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265862346' post='2243023']
[quote name='amerza18' date='10 February 2010 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1265815292' post='2241005']
I personally think the single worst rule is having to play a ball out of a sanded or non-replaced divot in the middle of the fairway. I feel you are unfairly punished for hitting a quality shot.

[/quote]

Yeah, but that's just golf man! There is actually no rule that prohibits moving a ball from a divot, merely the lack of a rule that grants relief.

Even if we did away with all the rules, what would remain is the basic premise of the game: "Play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it."
[/quote]

I do understand the basic premise of play the ball where it lies and the course as you find it. But something seems out of whack if you hit the ball where it sits on a cart path 15 yards off the fairway and get relief, but you hit the ball in the middle of the fairway and lands in a non-replaced or sanded divot. The rule just rubs me the wrong way, but I abide by it.

[OpusX20]

[quote name='bigred90gt' date='10 February 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1265861258' post='2242975']
I think one of the worst rules in golf is not being able to fix any imperfections on the greens except ball marks. If I drag my feet on the green, the group behind me is left to play in my mess. This really only effects tournaments, since if I am playing a high traffic muni, I'm not going to putt through spike marks. But, I have had to putt through all kinds of stuff in tourney's.
[/quote]


There is no rule that prohibits you fixing spike marks, or other green damage, after you have holed out. If you acccidentally drag your feet across the green (even in a tournament) you are free (and frankly expected) to fix it.

[Dizz]

I actually dislike the OB stroke and distance rule too. I think it would speed the game up at every level to play OB the same as a hazard. I remember playing in a tournament and I hit a ball down the middle of the fairway, hit a uneven yardage plaque and ricocheted OB...more bad luck than a bad rule but didn't know it was OB until I got to the ball.

[mat562]

If I live to be 100 I'll never understand why a player isn't allowed to tap down spike marks on the greens. Really horrible damage that's caused by the Herman Munsters of the world - or at least ones who don't consider the rest of the field after they've holed out - put the following group at a distinct disadvantage. Allowing players to tidy up marks wouldn't unduly delay play, nor would it give any competitor any sort of advantage. Why the rule's the way it is is beyond me.

Another one that baffles me is why you get relief for an embedded ball only on close mown areas and not in the rough. I know a plugged ball in long grass only happens once in a blue moon, but it strikes me as a daft rule. The European Tour Tournament Committee seem to agree with me and have a local rule in effect for tournament play that flies in the face of the R&A's stance.

[Newby]

[quote name='mat562' date='11 February 2010 - 07:44 AM' timestamp='1265874246' post='2243268']
The European Tour Tournament Committee seem to agree with me and have a local rule in effect for tournament play that flies in the face of the R&A's stance.
[/quote]

The R&A's stance is that there is an authorised Local Rule that any competition committee may use at its discretion. Although most pro tours use it, the R&A themselves do not use it in any competition organised by them (eg The Open Championship)

[Newby]

It seems most of the objections to the rules are about making the game easier.
Why not really dumb it down and play indoors on astroturf?

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='goldfinger007' date='09 February 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1265764229' post='2239899']
The Rules of Golf are meant to govern play and make it fair and equitable for everyone???
...
[/quote]

While the rules indeed govern play, there is NOTHING about golf that is fair and equitable. In fact, golf is patently UNFAIR and inequitable. And that is what makes it such a great game.

[I_HATE_SNOW]

Try accidentally hitting yourself with your ball, 2 stroke penalty!

[KevCarter]

[quote name='dirtyboy' date='11 February 2010 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1265897915' post='2243485']
Try accidentally hitting yourself with your ball, 2 stroke penalty!
[/quote]

Changed a few years ago.

[color="#474747"][size="2"]
[b]19-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment[/b]
[color="#7F7F7F"][size="3"]If a player's ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Partner"]partner[/url] [/i]or either of their [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Caddie"][i]caddies[/i][/url] or [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Equipment"][i]equipment[/i][/url],[/size][/color][/size][/color]
[color="#474747"][size="2"][color="#7F7F7F"][size="3"][color="#CD2129"]the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.[/color][/size][/color][/size][/color]
[color="#474747"][size="2"][color="#7F7F7F"][size="3"][color="#CD2129"][/color]The ball must be played as it lies, except when it comes to rest in or on the player's, his [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Partner"][i]partner[/i][/url]'s or either of their [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Caddie"][i]caddies[/i][/url]' clothes or [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Equipment"][i]equipment[/i][/url], in which case the ball must [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url] or in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"][i]hazard[/i][/url] be dropped, or on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green[/i][/url] be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the article, but not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url].[/size][/color]

[/size][/color]

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='tjy355' date='10 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265862346' post='2243023']

. . . There is actually no rule that prohibits moving a ball from a divot, merely the lack of a rule that grants relief.

[/quote]

Getting technical here, but there is a rule that explicitly prohibits you from randomly moving a ball from a divot, or from anywhere else for that matter:


[b]13-1. General[/b]
The ball must be played as it lies, except as otherwise provided in the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i]Rules[/i][/url].

Penalty For Breach of Rule:
[u]Match play[/u] - Loss of hole; [u]Stroke play[/u] - Two strokes.

[Newby]

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment

a. General

 

When a player's ball is in play, if:

 

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, ..

 

*If a player who is required to replace a ball fails to do so, or if he makes a stroke at a ball substituted under Rule 18 when such substitution is not permitted, he incurs the general penalty for breach of Rule 18, but there is no additional penalty under this Rule.

*Penalty for Breach of Rule:

Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

[highergr0und]

Yeah but if it's a deep divot, you could take an unplayable lie and only suffer a single stroke penalty...

My biggest complaint with the far out rules of golf is the legalese they're written in and all the little decisions as a result of it.

[OpusX20]

I don't have any issues with the Rules themselves. But, the verbiage in one of the Decisions has bothered me for a long time.

[i]Decision 24-2b/8
Question: A player whose ball lies in the rough close to the fairway is entitled to relief from an immovable obstruction. In obtaining relief under Rule 24-2b(i), may the player drop the ball on the fairway?

Answer: Yes. There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough; both are covered by the term “through the green”.[/i]
I agree with the Decision itself, but I don't quite understand why they throw in the phrase, "[i]There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough[/i]". It seems like the answer in that Decision would be better without that phrase.

When I read Rule Rule 25-2, it says [size="2"]"A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely-mown area through the green [/size][size="2"]may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole[/size][size="2"].The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green[/size][size="2"]. “Closely-mown area” means any area of the course[/size][font="GillSans-Light"][size="2"], including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

To me, it sounds like Rule 25-2 is making a distinction between fairway and rough. [/size][/font]

[Newby]

The fairway is only one area of the course that may be cut to 'fairway length'.
25-2 itself mentions paths. There is at least two other areas that are normally cut to that length or less.

25-2 is making a distiction between 'closely mown areas' and everywhere else on the course.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='OpusX20' date='11 February 2010 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1265910612' post='2243911']
[size="2"]To me, it sounds like Rule 25-2 is making a distinction between fairway and rough. [/size]
[/quote]


Opus, to you it sounds like a distinction, as it should to any English-speaking person!

I can't help but think it's simply an error. Instead of saying, "[i]There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough[/i]", they probably meant to say, "[i]There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough [u]in this situation.[/u][/i][u]"[/u]

[jjj912]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='11 February 2010 - 09:20 AM' timestamp='1265898016' post='2243487']
[quote name='dirtyboy' date='11 February 2010 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1265897915' post='2243485']
Try accidentally hitting yourself with your ball, 2 stroke penalty!
[/quote]

Changed a few years ago.

[color="#474747"][size="2"]
[b]19-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment[/b]
[color="#7F7F7F"][size="3"]If a player's ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Partner"]partner[/url] [/i]or either of their [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Caddie"][i]caddies[/i][/url] or [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Equipment"][i]equipment[/i][/url],[/size][/color][/size][/color]
[color="#474747"][size="2"][color="#7F7F7F"][size="3"][color="#CD2129"]the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.[/color][/size][/color][/size][/color]
[color="#474747"][size="2"][color="#7F7F7F"][size="3"][color="#CD2129"][/color]The ball must be played as it lies, except when it comes to rest in or on the player's, his [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Partner"][i]partner[/i][/url]'s or either of their [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Caddie"][i]caddies[/i][/url]' clothes or [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Equipment"][i]equipment[/i][/url], in which case the ball must [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url] or in a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"][i]hazard[/i][/url] be dropped, or on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green[/i][/url] be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the article, but not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url].[/size][/color]

[/size][/color]
[/quote]


Not very many people seem have noticed that the rule changed. In the Jan edition of Golf Magazine/Digest (I forget which) they make the same mistake as well.

[Sawgrass]

Not very many people seem have noticed that the rule changed. In the Jan edition of Golf Magazine/Digest (I forget which) they make the same mistake as well.

 

 

Golf Magazine/Digest should know better than to publish something about the rules without first getting Kevin's approval.

[jjj912]

[quote name='OpusX20' date='11 February 2010 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1265910612' post='2243911']
I don't have any issues with the Rules themselves. But, the verbiage in one of the Decisions has bothered me for a long time.

[i]Decision 24-2b/8
Question: A player whose ball lies in the rough close to the fairway is entitled to relief from an immovable obstruction. In obtaining relief under Rule 24-2b(i), may the player drop the ball on the fairway?

Answer: Yes. There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough; both are covered by the term “through the green”.[/i]
I agree with the Decision itself, but I don't quite understand why they throw in the phrase, "[i]There is no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough[/i]". It seems like the answer in that Decision would be better without that phrase.

When I read Rule Rule 25-2, it says [size="2"]"A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely-mown area through the green [/size][size="2"]may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole[/size][size="2"].The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green[/size][size="2"]. “Closely-mown area” means any area of the course[/size][font="GillSans-Light"][size="2"], including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

To me, it sounds like Rule 25-2 is making a distinction between fairway and rough. [/size][/font]
[/quote]


I think the reason for the statment about there being no distinction in the Rules between fairway and rough is to clarify for the reader as to why it is permissible to drop from the rough into the fairway. It is permissible because you drop through the green and that includes both the fairway and the rough.

I do find it odd that there are a couple of places that refer to the fairway or the rough, yet fairway and rough are not defined in the glossary. That said, I think what they are really trying to do is make a distinction between a closely-mown area and a non-closely-mown area and are using the terms fairway and rough to help illustrate the difference. A closely-mown area would encompass more than the fairway. Areas such as the putting green and teeing ground would be closely-mown areas. I'd probably toss the fringe around the green into the closely-mown bucket as well.

I don't know why fairway and rough are not defined. Maybe no one has found a satisfactory definition. You would probably need to also define the areas that are through the green that are neither rough nor fairway, like the area between the fairway and green that is cut higher than the fairway, but lower than the rough.

[bermuda]

Seems inequitable that I could put my club or a towel down on the green behind the hole, putt my ball into it, call it an accident and take one stroke, but if I lay the flagstick down and putt my ball into it, it's two strokes (rule 17-3).

Or am I not reading rules correctly?