Far out Rules of Golf

[Sawgrass]

I'm inclined to have some sympathy for your point of view regarding wording here. But I'll also add that the phrase "through the green," once you've adopted it, is kind of handy. Complicating your suggestion a little bit is the fact that if they did what you suggested, the rule would technically apply to putting surfaces too, where the relief for an embedded ball permits placement, rather than a drop. So they might have to say "no ball in a hazard is entitled to free relief and balls on the green follow a different procedure . . ." which really gets kind of wordy.

My last bit of perverse observation is that the rule as it is actually stated precludes you from getting free relief from the teeing area, and I'm not entirely sure why that would be a goal of theirs. But hey, if it wasn't odd it wouldn't be as much fun to discuss.

[Newby]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='26 February 2010 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1267222011' post='2279546']
My last bit of perverse observation is that the rule as it is actually stated precludes you from getting free relief from the teeing area, and I'm not entirely sure why that would be a goal of theirs.
[/quote]

In fact I have had a ruling from the R&A indicating that in such a situation [i](25-2 & Preferred Lies) 'in equity'[/i] the [i]teeing ground of the hole being played[/i] should be treated as[i] through the green [/i]and as [i]closely mown[/i] (if it is in fact closely mown).

[OneBowTie]

I did get a response from the USGA saying that they had my question and that I will be receiving a response from them within the next 20-30 days..... I will post what they have to say about it just so we all can see how they respond and interpret things for us

interesting on the tee'ing area...... I am glad that I do not have to write the rules of golf.....given some thought, I really is tough to word things to cover ALL circumstances......

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Newby' date='01 March 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1267476523' post='2285981']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='26 February 2010 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1267222011' post='2279546']
My last bit of perverse observation is that the rule as it is actually stated precludes you from getting free relief from the teeing area, and I'm not entirely sure why that would be a goal of theirs.
[/quote]

In fact I have had a ruling from the R&A indicating that in such a situation [i](25-2 & Preferred Lies) 'in equity'[/i] the [i]teeing ground of the hole being played[/i] should be treated as[i] through the green [/i]and as [i]closely mown[/i] (if it is in fact closely mown).
[/quote]

That really is interesting to note Newby. And to OneBowTie's point about the complexity of the basic rule's wording, it certainly leaves something to be desired since "through the green" now would only seem to exclude hazards and greens, and greens have their own releif anyway. So OneBotTie's thought about adding "except in hazards" seems like a much better way to go than "through the green".

A further disappointment in all this is that I presume you got your ruling well after the fact, and that even if it happened again it would be a great burden for you to convince the committee that your ruling was available and appropriate for the situation. All in all, not the best way to go I think!

[OneBowTie]

I love the game of golf..... I love the challenges it offers to us all.... but I really struggle more and more with rules.... I actually try to learn them- through hands on experience and through watching events happen and the rulings that come from them.... but the more I think I know.... the less I really do know, and that bothers me about golf.....

Sawgrass, my thread about "does anybody play by the rules anymore" was baiting to get people to post... because I feel that most people THINK they play by the rules... and in my experiences.... some of the more common rules that we experience ALMOST every round.... like drops from paths and so forth, so so many golfers botch them..... and you wouldnt believe how many people do not play red/yellow stakes correctly......

Like I say.... this rule we are discussing I think would come into play quite often in golf....we all play wet or damp courses and have balls plug.....

I simply wish that rules were worded so that more could understand them..... and after discussing some of the rules like on this thread.... i really don't know who or how they can be.....

I do not believe most people want to break the rules.... but on the other hand.... I have found that MOST people don't want to learn the correct rules.... or won't accept the rules.... I do want to learn/know/ and play by the rules for the most part.....

[Newby]

[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1267138040' post='2277202']
I have played places where they said, you may move your ball a club length in your own fairway only......[/quote]

That is not a permitted Local Rule

[quote] ..but I get you if the club actually stated such a rule like you point out.... most of the time, I have heard them say, a club length....or they say....THE LIFT, CLEAN, PLACE rule is in effect....

[/quote]

Lift, clean and Replace is not the same Local Rule as Preferred Lies.
A common mistake.

[Newby]

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' date='26 February 2010 - 03:08 AM' timestamp='1267153712' post='2277857']
The problem is that most "rules officials".... really know very little about the rules and are too proud to admit they are wrong on something.
[/quote]

I suspect you are not talking about Rules Officials but club officials or 'helpers'. Have you ever tried the exams ROs are required to take.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Newby' date='01 March 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1267487747' post='2286380']
[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1267138040' post='2277202']
I have played places where they said, you may move your ball a club length in your own fairway only......[/quote]

[b]That is not a permitted Local Rule[/b]

[/quote]

Why not Newby?

Kevin


[quote][b][color="#0000FF"]c. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules"[/color][/b]

Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25, and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.
However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:

"A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green[or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves , there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.
If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club,[/quote]

[mozgolf]

[quote name='Newby' date='02 March 2010 - 01:55 AM' timestamp='1267487747' post='2286380']
[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1267138040' post='2277202']
I have played places where they said, you may move your ball a club length in your own fairway only......[/quote]

That is not a permitted Local Rule

We have a 2 club length placing at our old club here in Mozambique, mainly because the fairways are very sandy in the dry season and you actually need it at times to find a piece of grass even if you have driven your ball into the middle of the fairway. Its caused a few debates when people have used it to get relief from a tree thats in the fairway.... Why is the rule not premitted, acknowledging that 1 let alone 2 clubs is overly generous.

[Newby]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='01 March 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1267481375' post='2286149']
A further disappointment in all this is that I presume you got your ruling well after the fact, and that even if it happened again it would be a great burden for you to convince the committee that your ruling was available and appropriate for the situation. All in all, not the best way to go I think!
[/quote]

Yes, I got the ruling after the event but had already ruled that way in anticipation. But of course D 25-2/8 gave me the pointer for preferred lies
I don't anticipate any problems in future. I have a copy of the ruling and have made it well known to RO colleagues around the world.
But it is of course open to any Committee to get a ruling from the R&A or USGA on any situation not covered by the rules

[Newby]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='02 March 2010 - 12:00 AM' timestamp='1267488044' post='2286389']
[quote name='Newby' date='01 March 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1267487747' post='2286380']
[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1267138040' post='2277202']
I have played places where they said, you may move your ball a club length in your own fairway only......[/quote]

[b]That is not a permitted Local Rule[/b]

[/quote]

Why not Newby?

Kevin


[/quote]

According to the R&A the Local Rule should not be modified to limit the player to relief only on the fairway of the hole being played.
The point of this Local Rule is provide for adverse conditions which are not ideal for play therefore, if the ball is on a closely-mown area the player should be entitled to the fairest lie under the conditions. [u]This is regardless of it being a wrong fairway, teeing ground or other closely-mown area on the course.[/u]

If the conditions in a specific area are 'adverse', they are 'adverse', wherever your last stroke was played from or your next played to.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Newby' date='02 March 2010 - 02:05 AM' timestamp='1267517123' post='2287379']
[quote name='kevcarter ' date='02 March 2010 - 12:00 AM' timestamp='1267488044' post='2286389']
[quote name='Newby' date='01 March 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1267487747' post='2286380']
[quote name='OneBowTie' date='25 February 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1267138040' post='2277202']
I have played places where they said, you may move your ball a club length in your own fairway only......[/quote]

[b]That is not a permitted Local Rule[/b]

[/quote]

Why not Newby?

Kevin


[/quote]

According to the R&A the Local Rule should not be modified to limit the player to relief only on the fairway of the hole being played.
The point of this Local Rule is provide for adverse conditions which are not ideal for play therefore, if the ball is on a closely-mown area the player should be entitled to the fairest lie under the conditions. [u]This is regardless of it being a wrong fairway, teeing ground or other closely-mown area on the course.[/u]

If the conditions in a specific area are 'adverse', they are 'adverse', wherever your last stroke was played from or your next played to.
[/quote]

Got it, I keep forgetting this forum has representation from all over the world. Preferred Lies in your own fairway in the US is very commonly used, even though not proper...

Thanks,
Kevin

[Sawgrass]

I like the logic of the R&A's decision. You can try to "erase" unfavorable conditions without erasing one's opportunity to luck out every now and then, as might have happened if you hit in the wrong fairway on a dry day for instance.

Thanks for pursuing this line of thought, gentlemen. Very interesting.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='02 March 2010 - 08:58 AM' timestamp='1267541930' post='2287687']
I like the logic of the R&A's decision. You can try to "erase" unfavorable conditions without erasing one's opportunity to luck out every now and then, as might have happened if you hit in the wrong fairway on a dry day for instance.

Thanks for pursuing this line of thought, gentlemen. Very interesting.
[/quote]

I'm so used to the way we do things over here that I never even considered the idea that the way we administer Preferred Lies is different from the USGA suggested local rule. Talk about burying my head in the sand!

Newby's response is really an eye opener for me, and I believe his and the R&A interpretation to be 100% correct. I LOVE learning new concepts (to me) about the rules!

Thanks Guys & Gals,
Kevin

[larrybud]

This topic (divot holes) comes up regularly.

It's possible (just) that the RBs might be more sympathetic if someone could come up with a form of words which would indisputably tell us the difference between a divot hole and any other large or small blemish in the surface.

I have raised this challenge a dozen times or more but no takers so far.

 

In my opinion, maybe not even so humble this time, you haven't had any takers because it can't be done effectively.

 

Kevin

I don't see why words which indisputably tell the difference has to be made. The RoG talk about a hole made by a "burrowing animal". How exactly is one to tell that?

[KevCarter]

This topic (divot holes) comes up regularly.

It's possible (just) that the RBs might be more sympathetic if someone could come up with a form of words which would indisputably tell us the difference between a divot hole and any other large or small blemish in the surface.

I have raised this challenge a dozen times or more but no takers so far.

 

In my opinion, maybe not even so humble this time, you haven't had any takers because it can't be done effectively.

 

Kevin

I don't see why words which indisputably tell the difference has to be made. The RoG talk about a hole made by a "burrowing animal". How exactly is one to tell that?

 

Do you seriously feel there is a comparison in degree of difficulty in determining? I don't...

 

Kevin