Condition of Competition

[Sawgrass]

Specifics for the PGA Tour?

I understand that tournament committees can add certain "Conditions of Competition" which supplement the Rules of Golf for their particular tournament. I also have a vague understanding that there is a restriction which limits the tournament committees from overriding the Rules in some ways.

I've never been able to find and read the typical CoCs that the PGA Tour uses in its tournaments. If anyone can direct me to such a document, I'd appreciate it.

I'd also be interested in getting a better understanding of how the Rules of Golf actually limit the committee's discretion.

I've found this:


33-1. Conditions; Waiving Rule
The Committee must establish the conditions under which a competition is to be played.

The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.


But it's not totally clear to me exactly how establishing an additional condition is different than waiving a Rule.


Anyone able to offer any insight?

Thanks

[jaskanski]

By complying with the rules of golf, no competition or committee may alter the rules or invoke a condition of play that contravenes the rules of golf. For example, a competition may not invoke a local rule where it is permtted to hole out with the pin in the hole. Such a local rule goes against the fundamental rules of golf. A similar example would be allowing players to carry 15 clubs or permitting players to ignore the rules for water hazards.
Allowing players to lift, clean and place is permitted as it does not contravene the rules of golf. Another example would be to allow players to take a drop from a specific conditon on the course, as long as it does not conflict with the basic rules of golf - eg. a drop from a grandstand but not a drop from out of bounds.

[KevCarter]

Sawgrass,

When I ran my club, I felt it very important to be consistent in local rules for all my club events. I developed a "hard card" of local rules that were always in effect, and my members all had access to this card. It was modeled after a "hard card" that was developed for the tour, and modified for club play. This is a little outdated, notice the phrase reasonable evidence is still there. This needs to be updated for the current rules, but should give you an idea of what it is meant to accomplish.

Kevin

[attachment=553710:Local Rules Hard Card.pdf]

[DRGJR72]

I looked for the PGA tour hard card I got in 2001 and could not find it. But I did a quick search on the net and found this article.

http://www.pgatour.com/story/9515670/

The second question down talks about the PGA tour hard card and conditions of comp.

Hope that helps.

Dan

[Newby]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='07 March 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1267980017' post='2299246']
I understand that tournament committees can add certain "Conditions of Competition" which supplement the Rules of Golf for their particular tournament. I also have a vague understanding that there is a restriction which limits the tournament committees from overriding the Rules in some ways.

I've never been able to find and read the typical CoCs that the PGA Tour uses in its tournaments. If anyone can direct me to such a document, I'd appreciate it.

I'd also be interested in getting a better understanding of how the Rules of Golf actually limit the committee's discretion.

[/quote]

The approved Conditions of Competition are all in Appendix I Part C of the Rules Book. They (and Local Rules) are themselves by definition Rules.
The Tour uses some but not all of them.

They can make other CoCs but they must not waive or override a Rule of Golf nor may they impose golfing penalties (ie strokes or DQ)

[Sawgrass]

Thanks to all for your comments. Interestingly to me, while I've read the Appendix 1 part C of the rules, I still haven't read approved CoCs that I have come to understand are in force on the PGA Tour.

For instance, it's my understanding that one cannot use a power golf cart and that one cannot wear shorts. Perhaps these "rules" are not precisely Condition of Competition issues, although I have assumed that they would be.

I'm surprised that I can't easily find a complete list of the rules these pros play under. I'd have assumed that the adoptation of the new groove rule, the one ball rule, the temporary immovable obstruction rule and the like would be in one document, or "hard card" (if I am using this new-to-me term properly) that is published somewhere or other. And I was hoping to confirm my understanding of these issues rather than rely on vague things I've heard.

I was reading another thread today which talked about how a pro marked his ball. I thought I had an understanding of the issue from the ROG, but another poster implied that the PGA Tour may have additional restrictions regarding the practice of marking on the green. In a way it's funny that tournaments allow spectators to call in with potential rules infractions, but don't readily make available a complete set of all the "rules" (CoCs) that the players must abide by.

[Newby]

Sawgrass

The appendix contains all the CoCs that may be used. Different Tours (PGA, Asian etc) may use pick and choose as they wish but I'm not aware of any having any others not in the appendix. If they do they cannot impose a golfing penalty for a breach (as I indicated before).

'Shorts' for example is a PGA Regulation not a CoC. A breach would be penalised by a fine not strokes.

PS Did you get my email?

[Sawgrass]

Oh no! Now we need a [b]Rules of Golf[/b] forum, a [b]Condition of Competition[/b] forum and a [b]PGA Regulation[/b] forum.

I hope when my head explodes I don't get any pieces on my keyboard.

(Thanks for your offer to email me Newby, I attempted to PM you back letting you know that it didn't come through for one reason or another. Very nice of you to try though.)

[Newby]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='08 March 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1268075483' post='2302129']
Oh no! Now we need a [b]Rules of Golf[/b] forum, a [b]Condition of Competition[/b] forum and a [b]PGA Regulation[/b] forum.

I hope when my head explodes I don't get any pieces on my keyboard.

(Thanks for your offer to email me Newby, I attempted to PM you back letting you know that it didn't come through for one reason or another. Very nice of you to try though.)
[/quote]

Its not as bad as it seems.

The term "[i]Rule[/i]" includes: [indent]a. The Rules of Golf and their interpretations as contained in "Decisions on the Rules of Golf";

b. Any Conditions of Competition established by the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Committee"][i]Committee[/i][/url] under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14318#33-1"]33-1[/url] and Appendix I;

c. Any Local Rules established by the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Committee"][i]Committee[/i][/url] under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14318#33-8"]33-8a[/url] and Appendix I; and

d. The specifications on clubs and the ball in Appendices II and III and their interpretations as contained in "A Guide to the Rules on Clubs and Balls."

Forget the PGA stuff, I suspect you never encounter any of it.


[/indent]

[putt4_66]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='07 March 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1268022372' post='2300867']
Thanks to all for your comments. Interestingly to me, while I've read the Appendix 1 part C of the rules, I still haven't read approved CoCs that I have come to understand are in force on the PGA Tour.

For instance, it's my understanding that one cannot use a power golf cart and that one cannot wear shorts. Perhaps these "rules" are not precisely Condition of Competition issues, although I have assumed that they would be.

I'm surprised that I can't easily find a complete list of the rules these pros play under. I'd have assumed that the adoptation of the new groove rule, the one ball rule, the temporary immovable obstruction rule and the like would be in one document, or "hard card" (if I am using this new-to-me term properly) that is published somewhere or other. And I was hoping to confirm my understanding of these issues rather than rely on vague things I've heard.

I was reading another thread today which talked about how a pro marked his ball. I thought I had an understanding of the issue from the ROG, but another poster implied that the PGA Tour may have additional restrictions regarding the practice of marking on the green. In a way it's funny that tournaments allow spectators to call in with potential rules infractions, but don't readily make available a complete set of all the "rules" (CoCs) that the players must abide by.
[/quote]

A condition of competition has to do with golf play. For instance, some courses may have stones in bunkers. A Local CoC may be to allow the removal of a stone directly behind the ball even though normally you can't move anything in a hazard.

The PGA TOUR is a private entity and players are members of the organization. As members they have to abide by policies no different than you or I would have to abide by at our jobs. The policies of the PGA TOUR are just tailored to their profession. They can't wear shorts, etc. They have a code of conduct and other parts to their policies and members MUST agree to the policies. When a player gets his card for the first time he attends an orientation familiarizing himself with the policies and procedures. Just like I could get fired for breaking the policy of my employer, a PGA TOUR player can get fined or suspended.

[Newby]

[quote name='putt4_66' date='08 March 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1268086924' post='2302633']

For instance, some courses may have stones in bunkers. A Local CoC may be to allow the removal of a stone directly behind the ball even though normally you can't move anything in a hazard.

[/quote]

That in fact is a Local Rule which the PGA choose to use wherever they play. It's not a CoC.

[larrybud]

[quote name='jaskanski' date='07 March 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1267980957' post='2299272']
By complying with the rules of golf, no competition or committee may alter the rules or invoke a condition of play that contravenes the rules of golf. For example, a competition may not invoke a local rule where it is permtted to hole out with the pin in the hole. Such a local rule goes against the fundamental rules of golf. A similar example would be allowing players to carry 15 clubs or permitting players to ignore the rules for water hazards.
Allowing players to lift, clean and place is permitted as it does not contravene the rules of golf.[/quote]

How can you say that last sentence? The rules of golf state you're not allowed to touch your ball unless on the green. How is that different from allowing the pin in the hole?

[jaskanski]

[quote name='larrybud' date='14 March 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1268595504' post='2315292']
[quote name='jaskanski' date='07 March 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1267980957' post='2299272']
By complying with the rules of golf, no competition or committee may alter the rules or invoke a condition of play that contravenes the rules of golf. For example, a competition may not invoke a local rule where it is permtted to hole out with the pin in the hole. Such a local rule goes against the fundamental rules of golf. A similar example would be allowing players to carry 15 clubs or permitting players to ignore the rules for water hazards.
Allowing players to lift, clean and place is permitted as it does not contravene the rules of golf.[/quote]

How can you say that last sentence? The rules of golf state you're not allowed to touch your ball unless on the green. How is that different from allowing the pin in the hole?
[/quote]


I don't understand what you mean. The point I was making was that the committee or competition cannot invoke a local rule where the ball can be holed out (on the putting green) without the flag attended -- ie. left in the hole to putt out. See decision 33-8/11. [url="http://randapublic.loghar.com/flash/decisions/decisions.html"]http://randapublic.loghar.com/flash/decisions/decisions.html[/url]

[Newby]

[quote name='larrybud' date='14 March 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1268595504' post='2315292']
[quote name='jaskanski' date='07 March 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1267980957' post='2299272']
Allowing players to lift, clean and place is permitted as it does not contravene the rules of golf.[/quote]

How can you say that last sentence? The rules of golf state you're not allowed to touch your ball unless on the green. How is that different from allowing the pin in the hole?
[/quote]

[i]Preferred Lies[/i] & [i]Cleaning Ball[/i] (usually referred to as [i]Lift, Clean and Place [/i]and [i]Lift, Clean and Replace[/i] respectively are in themselves authorised Local Rules.
This means they are Rules as defined in the Definitions.

The Rule of Golf 33-8a permits the Committee to use the Local Rules in Appendix I.