Golfweek's Top 25 for Arizona - 2010

[Ninja]

1. We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro), Fort McDowell (m)

2. Ritz-Carlton GC at Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita), Marana (m)*

3. Troon North (Monument), Scottsdale (m)

4. We-Ko-Pa (Cholla), Fort McDowell (m)

5. TPC Scottsdale (Stadium), Scottsdale (m)

6. Ventana Canyon (Mountain), Tucson (m)

7. Talking Stick (North), Scottsdale (m)

8. Troon North (Pinnacle), Scottsdale (m)

9. Southern Dunes GC, Maricopa (m)

10. Superstition Mountain (Prospector), Superstition Mountain (m)*

11. Boulders Resort (North), Carefree (m)

12. La Paloma GC (Ridge/Canyon), Tucson (m)

13. Laughlin Ranch, Bullhead City (m)

14. Superstition Mountain (Lost Gold), Superstition Mountain (m)*

15. Grayhawk (Raptor), Scottsdale (m)

16. Golf Club of Estrella, Phoenix (m)

17. Longbow GC, Mesa (m)

18. Boulders Resort (South), Carefree (m)

19. Talking Stick (South), Scottsdale (m)

20. Ventana Canyon (Canyon), Tucson (m)

21. Gold Canyon Golf Resort (Dinosaur Mountain), Gold Canyon (m)*

22. SunRidge Canyon, Fountain Hills (m)

23. Grayhawk (Talon), Scottsdale (m)

24. TPC Scottsdale (Champions), Scottsdale (m)*

25. Wildfire at Desert Ridge (Faldo), Phoenix

 

 

*new to the list

[Zooko23]

played 17 of the twenty five and I agree with most. Instead of la paloma in tucson I would put star pass on there instead

[dgrelecki]

I'm playing Troon Pinnacle in a couple of weeks...I've heard that the Pinnacle is now better than monument, is that not true?
Also, I might be playing another...would everyone suggest We Ko Pa? I'm staying at the Fairmont at the TPC, but hear it's way overrated for the price.

[Ninja]

I've read a lot of mixed reviews for [i]Talking Stick[/i] and yet both their courses make the list (I haven't played there so I can't comment).

[dgrelecki]

I wouldn't trust the Golf Week ratings upon further review. I just looked up the Indiana courses, have played every one of them, and think the person that put the list together might have been hammered when he cut and pasted the list ....there are a couple REALLY odd ones...

[itsadryhot]

well at least the tucson area got four....sheesh.

[drake47]

I think Longbow is a little high on the list.

[puttnforthe8]

The list is a joke and an insult to many of the courses in the valley. I don't know the full criteria for the list, but I am fairly sure golf course tangibles are not the only factor. Clearly if you pay for ad space in you will be considered!

 

Grayhawk Talon should be nowhere on that list - I can think of at least 30 courses I would put above it! Dinosaur Mtn at 21 is an utter joke....this should be top 5, top 10 at the least.

 

Where is Ocotillo, Raven at Verrado, Legacy, Raven Sth Mtn, Vistancia, Whirlwind(both courses)....all above many of those on that list.

 

• Longbow, Talking Stick? above any of those above...I think not.

 

 

[Rohlio]

One thing I notice about that list....all those courses advertise heavily in Golfweek.

The courses are fine but a lot definitely don't belong.

How can both Talking Stick and Both Grayhawk courses be on that list and Neither of the Whirlwind courses? Just for starters.

Las Sendas Buries Longbow IMO.

It is nice to see Southern Dunes getting some play.

Neither Raven course? Really.

I have a huge problem with TPC Scottsdale (stadium) being in the top 5. Sure the back 9 is solid. With arguably the best last 4 holes in the valley, but I have played that course 5 or 6 times and I can still barely remember the front 9. It is that forgettable. I may make it #1 on the best 9 hole courses in Arizona, but the front lacks sorely. Make it a top 25 course sure, but #5 is ridiculous.

[daughterscameron]

I think Longbow is a little high on the list.

 

 

 

I was gonna ask about this. I was there a few years ago. Not

very impressive. I thought maybe there were changes or something.

 

I'll also give a +1 to Dinosaur Mtn and Raven at So. Mtn. NOW those were

great tracks. IMO.

[Liquid]

Played 14 on this list and Talking Stick does not belong on it. I only played one of the courses, but it was like playing the same hole over and over. TPC is ranked to high as well. It's good, but not worth the "tour" green fee.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Well just looking over it briefly here is how I would do that list, one caveat is I have not played any of the courses outside of the Phx area so I left the others as they were since I cannont fairly judge them.
[size="3"]
[size="3"][/size]1. We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro), Fort McDowell (m)
2. Ritz-Carlton GC at Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita), Marana (m)*
3. Troon North (Pinnacle), Scottsdale (m)
4. We-Ko-Pa (Cholla), Fort McDowell (m)
5. Troon North (Monument), Scottsdale (m)
6. Ventana Canyon (Mountain), Tucson (m)
7. Grayhawk (Raptor), Scottsdale (m
8. Southern Dunes GC, Maricopa (m)
9. Boulders Resort (South), Carefree (m
10. Superstition Mountain (Prospector), Superstition Mountain (m)*
11. Boulders Resort (North), Carefree (m)
12. La Paloma GC (Ridge/Canyon), Tucson (m)
13. Laughlin Ranch, Bullhead City (m)
14. Superstition Mountain (Lost Gold), Superstition Mountain (m)*
15. Gold Canyon Golf Resort (Dinosaur Mountain), Gold Canyon (m)*
16. Golf Club of Estrella, Phoenix (m)
17. Talking Stick (North), Scottsdale (m)
18. TPC Scottsdale (Champions), Scottsdale (m)*
19. Grayhawk (Talon), Scottsdale (m)
20. Ventana Canyon (Canyon), Tucson (m)
21. TPC Scottsdale (Stadium), Scottsdale (m)
22. SunRidge Canyon, Fountain Hills (m)
23. Talking Stick (South), Scottsdale (m)
24. Wildfire at Desert Ridge (Faldo), Phoenix
25. Longbow GC, Mesa (m)[/size]

[teejaywhy]

Nothing like a list to generate a little controversy. We all like to rank our experiences, but we each have different ideas about what makes a good golf course.

I noticed Arizona was one of the few states with 25 courses on the "best you can play" list. I think that once you get past the top 10 or 15, you have a whole lot of similar courses that are pretty much interchangeable and it becomes silly to debate the ranking of #18 vs. #21 etc.

Golfweek uses a system of volunteer raters that visit and play courses then rate them based on a set of criteria defined here:
[url]http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/oct/08/guidelines-used-golfweeks-course-raters/[/url]

My own (admittedly biased) views on what makes a good golf course - I look for variety and interest, enjoyment and playability, use of the property and natural features. While I prefer walkable, core routings that are not part of a real estate development, I acknowledge that some very fine courses exist that wind through the houses and may require a cart. I'm not such a freak about conditioning, I'd much rather play an interesting course with suspect maintenance over a bad course with the world's most plush conditions. As well, I don't give much consideration to the "amenities" like clubhouse, food/beverage, gps in the cart etc... That said, I offer the following comments:

- The Saguaro course at We-Ko-Pa does indeed get my vote for the best public course in Arizona.

- Three courses that are missing from the list are Vista Verde, The Raven @ Verrado and Los Caballeros.

- One course on the list that does not belong is the Canyon course at Ventana Canyon. Awful.

- I don't agree with the inclusion of the courses at Superstition Mountain on a public course list, granted they are technically open to the public for limited play due to the economy, but this is a really a country club. I've not played the Lost Gold course, and while the Prospector is a good course, but would not make my top 10.

- The Ritz-Carlton Dove Mountain course is as spectacular as it is demanding and difficult and for that reason it does not rank high on my list.

- I'm not that big on the Talon course at Grayhawk. In fact, I've not been particularly wowed by too many Gary Panks designs in the valley, including the Whirlwind courses, Vistancia, Raven @ S. Mountain, etc... They are all nice courses for sure, but they all have a formulaic sameness as well as a complete lack of quirk or character.

- Talking Stick for sure generates a lot of polarization. While the S. course is nothing special, I believe the North Course is a real gem. For me, it is a course that grows on me with every play. In fact, what I like most about TSN is more about what it is not rather than what it is. It is a course built on a dead flat site, does not have any spectacular views nor any particularly bold natural features. Most architects would use a fleet of bulldozers and move a million cubic yards of dirt to "create" a completely artificial course. Instead, TSN offers a throwback to an era of minimalism, with rustic features that blend with the surroundings rather than compete. It is a very subtle and organic experience, a walkable core routing, and for whatever reason it works for me and would make it into my top 10. My only complaint, they keep it too wet. Dried out, firm and fast conditions would better suit the nature of the course.

- Two courses that frequently get mentioned as top plays that I have no love for are Ocotillo and the Raven @ S. Mountain. Ocotillo is a charmless boilerplate design that could easily be in Florida or California or where ever. Routed through a housing development and with an overabundance of water hazards, I've played it a dozen times over the years and would be hard pressed to remember a single hole. The Raven at S. Mountain is another that I have never found to be particularly interesting. Always too wet and the pine tree motif doesn't do anything for me.

- My opinion on Longbow seem to differ as well. It is an interesting course that I can and do play often and not get tired of. They have the best turf in the SE valley.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Good points Tom, I had a feeling I went through that list to quick, I can't believe I left vista off of it considering I have played 90% of my rounds there this winter. I was looking to drop Talon and Longbow from it( I know how you feel about longbow though ) I just completley spaced on Vista and maybe Poston Butte

[CPSOX]

Vista Verde will likely be on the list....it's very possible that not enough raters have seen it yet. There are a minimum # of votes a course needs to have to be considered for any of the Golfweek lists. A course may be the next Pine Valley, but without the prerequisite number of votes, no dice. Helps keep the lists statistically relevant.

As for advertising mentioned above, it has nothing to do with where a course falls. A handful of Golfweek employees can submit ratings, but out of the hundreds of panelists, they are nearly all completely unrelated to the company.

[puttnforthe8]

[quote name='tjy355' date='17 March 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1268868314' post='2323620']
Nothing like a list to generate a little controversy. We all like to rank our experiences, but we each have different ideas about what makes a good golf course.

I noticed Arizona was one of the few states with 25 courses on the "best you can play" list. I think that once you get past the top 10 or 15, you have a whole lot of similar courses that are pretty much interchangeable and it becomes silly to debate the ranking of #18 vs. #21 etc.

[/quote]


While agree with most of your comments Tom, Dinosaur at #21......??? Please....That is NOT "interchangeable" with later ranked courses.

I put Dino in top 5 public courses.

Agreed with Supersition not being on the list too...because if you are going that route, the Anthem courses are better than the Superstition. Red Mountain Ranch as well.

[dgrelecki]

Hey guys. I'm playing Troon North Pinnacle at the beginning of April. I'm deciding between playing Dinasour or We-Ko-Pa Saguro course...which one would you play??

[One_Putt_Blunder]

[quote name='dgrelecki' date='17 March 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1268877034' post='2323962']
Hey guys. I'm playing Troon North Pinnacle at the beginning of April. I'm deciding between playing Dinasour or We-Ko-Pa Saguro course...which one would you play??
[/quote]

Saguaro, without a doubt.

[Zooko23]

[quote name='dgrelecki' date='17 March 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1268877034' post='2323962']
Hey guys. I'm playing Troon North Pinnacle at the beginning of April. I'm deciding between playing Dinasour or We-Ko-Pa Saguro course...which one would you play??
[/quote]

Wekopa is the place to be there is no doubt

[puttnforthe8]

I'd just play 36....whats the point in deciding btw the two.

[fore_life]

$$$$?

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='puttnforthe8' date='17 March 2010 - 05:59 PM' timestamp='1268873980' post='2323824']

While agree with most of your comments Tom, Dinosaur at #21......??? Please....That is NOT "interchangeable" with later ranked courses.

I put Dino in top 5 public courses.

[/quote]

GC Dinosaur Mtn without at doubt belongs on a list of top public course offerings in Arizona. I agree, #21 is too low but I think top 5 might be too high. The original Kavanaugh nine (now holes 1-4 & 14-18) still stand as some great golf holes in a spectacular setting. The added nine (5-13) is a little less interesting imo. The real estate routing with some long green to tee cart rides prevents it from being top class. Three drop shot par 3s is two too many. Nonetheless, it is a top public offering that I would not hesitate to recommend.

[Pleasedwith3putts]

Well i just got back from there and cannot understand how Saguaro can rate above Cholla. The Cholla course is a must play whilst I couyld happily skip playing Saguaro again. TPC Stadium is in good shape but overpriced and Raptor is well worth a visit as is Troon Pinnacle. Also heard good things about Dinosaur but did not get there and Boulders is in good shape.

Cholla would be my #1 followed by Raptor

[Doublebuck]

This is all really good information. I have only been to the Phoenix area once to play and looking to come again in April. The Wi Ko Pa courses are on the list for the end of the trip. We are going to play a few others prior to that, I am wondering about your opinions of The Legend Trail golf club and Eagle Mountain. Looks like we are going to be in Carefree to start.

Thanks much appreciated.

[drake47]

Eagle Mountain is overpriced and not in great shape right now, but it does have some fun holes. But if you want to play Eagle Mountain and We ko Pa, go to Eagle Mountain and get the Mountain pass card for $199.00, it basically gets around half price for a foursome for Eagle Mountain and We Ko Pa (only one card is needed per foursome). Right now rack rate at Eagle Mountain (weekend) is 195.00 w/ the pass it is 95.00, rack rate at We Ko Pa is 175.00 w/ the pass its 85.50, and they both drop a bit after April 4th. If you played twice at We Ko Pa and once at Eagle Mountain, you would save over 900.00 after paying for the card! The downside is you can only book 4 days in advance. Wow it is crazy that We Ko Pa is cheaper than Eagle Mountain, what are they thinking! Oh and I forgot the card also works the same way at Longbow and Superstition Mountain.

[Doublebuck]

Thanks, great advice. Any chance you have played Southern Dunes? We are thinking of that one as well.

[puttnforthe8]

[quote name='Pleasedwith3putts' date='18 March 2010 - 05:50 AM' timestamp='1268920209' post='2324770']
Well i just got back from there and cannot understand how Saguaro can rate above Cholla. The Cholla course is a must play whilst I couyld happily skip playing Saguaro again. TPC Stadium is in good shape but overpriced and Raptor is well worth a visit as is Troon Pinnacle. Also heard good things about Dinosaur but did not get there and Boulders is in good shape.

Cholla would be my #1 followed by Raptor
[/quote]

LOL...funny you say that...personally I like Cholla better as well. But many like Saguaro.

[Pleasedwith3putts]

[quote name='puttnforthe8' date='18 March 2010 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1268937637' post='2325334']
[quote name='Pleasedwith3putts' date='18 March 2010 - 05:50 AM' timestamp='1268920209' post='2324770']
Well i just got back from there and cannot understand how Saguaro can rate above Cholla. The Cholla course is a must play whilst I couyld happily skip playing Saguaro again. TPC Stadium is in good shape but overpriced and Raptor is well worth a visit as is Troon Pinnacle. Also heard good things about Dinosaur but did not get there and Boulders is in good shape.

Cholla would be my #1 followed by Raptor
[/quote]

LOL...funny you say that...personally I like Cholla better as well. But many like Saguaro.
[/quote]

Not even close IMHO - I was shocked to learn Saguaro was higher rated

[Pargolfr00]

This is outright offensive!!! Not a single Desert Mountain course, Desert Forest???? There is so much behind the scenes biding on these lists, not so much as literally paying for a spot but as a previous poster mentioned ad $$$ in Golfweek helps your chances.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

[quote name='Pargolfr00' date='18 March 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1268970939' post='2326472']
This is outright offensive!!! Not a single Desert Mountain course, Desert Forest???? There is so much behind the scenes biding on these lists, not so much as literally paying for a spot but as a previous poster mentioned ad $$$ in Golfweek helps your chances.
[/quote]


TOP 25 Public access courses, hence why there is no Desert Mountain, Forest, Highlands ETC