Up&Down and Fairway in Regulation

[Radagast]

Some clarification before I start keeping stats

Novice questions here. I intend to keep track of for my game this year and want to be clear on what constitutes certain stats.

Up&Down. Specifically, must the resulting score be a par? Or is it the combination of 1-chip and 1-putt that defines an up and down? For example:

1) Par 4. First shot is OB. Penalty stroke. 3rd shot from tee is fine. 4th shot misses green. 5th shot chip on. 6th shot is a holed putt. Result is double bogey. Would this count as an up and down?

2) Par 5, reachable. First shot from tee is fine. Second shot is intended for the green but misses. 3rd shot is chip on. 4th shot is holed putt. Result is birdie. Would this count as an up and down?

Fairway in Regulation. Does the club used matter? I understood that no matter what club you hit off the tee, if your ball ends up on the fairway, that is a FIR. My cousin insists that if you don't use driver off the tee, you don't track a FIR (made or missed) for that hole.

Any clarification would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[mat562]

For my own stats, any time I get down in two strokes from beside the green counts as an up and down. Whether I've made a hash of the tee shot and ended up at greenside in four or five strokes, or belted a couple of shots to the edge of a par 5 green is immaterial. If I get down in two more it counts as an up and down when I tally things up afterwards.

Fairway stats? I typically only hit half a dozen drivers during a round at my home track, but they're not the only ones that count. Whether I've teed off with driver, 3 wood, a 1 iron or a 4 iron matters not. If it's in the short grass it's a fairway hit as far as I'm concerned. Your cousin presumably doesn't count a holed bunker shot as being holed unless he used a sand wedge to hit the shot.

[3_Jack_Par]

I concur with mat. When it comes to my fairways hit stats, I also track the club used for the tee shot, and track my percentages of hitting the fairway with each of the clubs I use most often from the tee -- driver, 3 wood, and 2 hybrid, and "other".

[highergr0und]

IMO, an up and down counts no matter the score. That stat will tell you that you had big issues earlier in the hole. You want to use the stats to increase the scoring ability by concentrating on certain areas.

For the fairways hit number, it doesn't matter if you use a 9 iron to get there. A typical course will have 14 fairways to hit. I hit driver 6-8 times depending on how I'm feeling on my average round. I also use 5 wood (2x), 4 wood (2-4x), 5 iron (1x), and 4 iron (1x). My fairway accuracy with the irons is over 90 down to about 40 with the driver.

[phil75070]

I agree with others that no matter what club you hit off the tee, if the ball ends up on the fairway then it is a fairway in regulation.

I am of the opinion however, that to be counted as an up and down it must result in a par. That is the way Intelligolf calculates that stat and it does not matter what club you use from off the green, including the putter. By the same token, the third shot into a par 5, even if just a chip shot, is still the "approach shot" and if on the green in two or three it counts as a green in regulation, but only an up and down if it is NOT a GIR and the chip and putt result in a par (or birdie if you chip it in).

I think that is the way these stats are officially kept, but one can track their game any way they want. After all, the goal is to learn where one's strength and weaknesses are to know what to work on.

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='phil75070' date='18 April 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1271632922' post='2386833']
I am of the opinion however, that to be counted as an up and down it must result in a par. That is the way Intelligolf calculates that stat and it does not matter what club you use from off the green, including the putter. By the same token, the third shot into a par 5, even if just a chip shot, is still the "approach shot" and if on the green in two or three it counts as a green in regulation, but only an up and down if it is NOT a GIR and the chip and putt result in a par (or birdie if you chip it in).
[/quote]
I disagree. Getting up and down means that you get the ball onto the green and in the hole in two shots or less. How many shots it took you to get to the point where you are near the green is irrelevant. I've gotten up & down for bogey plenty of times.

The stat you are describing is "scrambling", which is making par or better when missing the green in regulation.

[feedlotdoc]

You often hear the announcers on TV say he has to get up and down to save bogey. So IMO, if chipping and you make the next putt, you did it.

[phil75070]

After looking into it further, I believe you are right in the difference between "scrambling" and an "up and down". Now, where do "sand saves" fall? Does it have to be for par or better? If I am in the trap, leave my first attempt in the trap, then proceed to get the 2nd attempt on the green and make the putt, I am credited with an "up and down" by definition but am I also credited with a "sand save"? Basically then, anytime one uses one or zero putts counts as an "up and down".

If I chunk or blade my first chip and have to chip again, then if I am able to get that second (or more) attempt up and down then the stats are giving myself a false impression of how well I chip. Same if anytime I get up and down from a sand trap counts as a sand save or up and down; the stats would give me a false impression of how well I am able to play sand shots if it is actually taking two or three attempts to extricate myself.

[bigred90gt]

I would think that when you leave your first attempt in the bunker, or blade your first chip across the green, you no longer have the opportunity for an up & down.

[Radagast]

Thanks for the input. I'll track the Up&Down and FIR just as you all described. Follow up question.

What is your general rule as to when the position you are in constitutes an Up&Down opportunity? For instance, is it when your first shot is a chipping/pitching motion? Inside 50 yards? Close enough to the hole that you cannot take a full swing with any club in your bag?

[mat562]

My take on the bunker situtation is that the issue of recording ups and downs (or lack thereof) is a separate matter to the score on the card.

If I'm in a greenside bunker with my tee shot on a short par 4, or up greenside in two on a par 5, I only count a sand save/up and down if I make birdie or eagle. If I take three to get down, making a par, I don't consider that I got the ball up and down simply because I'm marking down a par on the card. I took three more. So I didn't up and down it. The fact that I nicked a shot by getting up close to the green in one shot less than regulation is irrelevant to me; as is the score.

I want to get the best picture of the state of my short game, and to do that I want stats available to me that bear a true relation to how well I'm chipping and putting. I don't get that true picture if I start massaging the figures by incorporating other factors into what, for me, is a straightforward exercise. If I was by the greenside, [i]in however many shots[/i], did I get it up and down in two (or one) more? Yes or no? Simple as that. Even if I have a nightmare and score eight on a hole by virtue of some army golf all the way to the greenside, if I finish things off by getting down in two from the fringe my up and down box gets a tick. If I belt two big shots to the greenside trap on a huge par 5 and then make par after splashing out poorly and taking two putts, it doesn't.

[shorrrno]

For me up and down is the same as scrambling. Miss GIR but make par.

And FIR is whatever club i doesnt matter driver or not

edit: just read thru and see you are saying up and down is different to scrambling so yeah i agree chip then putt is up and down.

but when do u consider a putt? what it you leave a 40yd pitch short then have to chip and putt. is that up and down?

[shorrrno]

I believe a sand save is any hole where you are in the bunker and make par or better.

Mat, what about a fairway bunker?

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='bigred90gt' date='18 April 2010 - 09:41 PM' timestamp='1271641309' post='2387098']
I would think that when you leave your first attempt in the bunker, or blade your first chip across the green, you no longer have the opportunity for an up & down.
[/quote]

The way I track these is if I screw up my chip or bunker shot and don't get down in two, that's a failed up & down attempt. The next chip begins a new up & down opportunity. So, in a hypothetical scenario where I left my first attempt in the bunker, and then got up & down on the second attempt, I record two up & down attempts on the hole, and one conversion.
I don't know that there's a right or wrong way to handle those situations in your stats, but IMO, my way reflects my true performance in the short game.

[mat562]

Fairway bunker?

It's a missed fairway for starters and then, hopefully, a Sandy Lyle-esque shot for a GIR ticked box. If I make a par or better from a fairway bunker I don't cout that as a sand save. [i]Unless[/i] I hit the approach into a greeside trap and then up and down [i]that[/i] one of course.

A sand save, to me, is essentially an up and down from a bunker at greenside, perhaps stretching out to 40 or 50 yards or so. Not fairway bunkers. Not generally cross bunkers either. A fairway bunker shot, as far as my recording goes, is essentially an iron shot that happens to be from sand. My sand save box comes under the same category as ups and downs and is, for me, a measure of the state of my short game. People obviously have different opinions and definitions on what constitutes a 'sand save' but, as far as my system goes, Bob Tway gets a tick but Sandy Lyle doesn't.

As for what constitutes an up and down; good question. I don't know if I have a hard and fast rule. I suppose I count anything that reasonably resembles a chip or pitch to be in the market for a possible ticked box. As an example, if I belt one into the trees, whack it out sideways with a wedge and then stiff a 6 iron for a rather pleasing par save, that doesn't count. Same spot in the trees - or, for this example, probably a slightly better position - and a bit of a banana hook under the branches with a 3 iron that finds the greenside bunker from where I get up and down in two more? That one gets a tick in the up and down box for me.

It's tough to put hard and fast parameters on it but, suffice to say, my up and down stat is essentially a measure of my short game performance and, as such, I try to keep it focussed on that particular aspect of my game without diluting it with other bits and bobs. There's no right answer of course, and many ways to do things, however you see fit, but when I look at my up and down stats I want a simple at-a-glance representation of the state of my chipping, pitching, and greeside sand play. If I start to factor in other things, such as whether I made par or the nature of the up and down (as with that 6 iron example above) I think it make sit a lot harder to get the picture of how things stand.

To be fair, half the time stats only back up what you already know anyway. When I mark my card I scribble down some succinct info in the form of shorthand to flesh out the raw figures. My fairway stat, for instance, has a simple tick/cross marker on each relevant hole, but I also jot down the club I used and, in the case of a miss, the side I missed towards. GIR stats are the same. Tick or cross for the basic GIR, but I also include the club used and the proximity in feet. If I miss it, which side did I miss it on? If you have a week where you're wafting lots of shots out to the right, you know about it. The stats don't really tell you anything you're not already fully aware of, but it's occasionally useful to see patterns and you may realise, for instance, that you're not hitting your short irons as close as your mid irons or that you're missing your driver to the left three times as often as you are to the right, and usually when you're playing a shot that requires a draw.

I've filled in stats for years, using a spare card and filling in the spare boxes for each category per hole. It only takes few seconds when you have a spare moment and, if you take the time to compile some sort of master log when you get home, it can be a useful tool to have at your disposal. I'm not a stat junkie. I don't live and die by what the numbers tell me, nor do I microanalyse every aspect of my game, but I do see some use in jotting down a few figures just to give you an idea over a month, six months, a season, whatever; of the state of my game, any weakness, any strengths, and how it's progressing over time. We all have peaks and troughs in form and the areas which we need to practice, at least for most people, aren't always consistent. If you have a bit of a ready reckoner that turns your attention to the areas that are lacking, to me that's great tool that can help you score better and more consistently.

My scribblings have to be small enough and concise enough to fit into a scorecard box and comprise, in order: FIRs, plus club used and info regarding any miss; GIRs plus club, proximity and the side of any miss; up and downs (including, as I said, chips, pitches and 'greenside' sand shots - with sand saves being annotated as such, distinct from chips); and putts per green. The GIR and proximity stats allow me to make an informed judgement about my putting (generally [i]'it's still mediocre'[/i]) by looking at how many greens I hit and how many putts I left myself that were realistically makeable. I did used to record my approximate driving distance but I don't bother any more. I know how far I hit it.

[parabol420]

I have also started tracking my stats and I am a little curious about a FIR.
There are a couple 280-300 yard par 4s at my local course and every now and then I will drive the green.
How do I mark this? Is this a missed fairway or a fairway? I currently put them in as missed fairways but that drives the stats down even though I hit a great shot and am on the green.
What is the correct way to track this?

[highergr0und]

For the par 4s that you can reach with the driver, it really comes down to whether or not you count it as a fairway to be hit/missed. The stat should be fairways hit when trying to hit it, after all the stat is about accuracy. If you try to drive the green, don't count it as a fairway hit or missed regardless of the outcome since it wasn't the goal of the shot.

[mat562]

I'm on-board with the above poster.

My current home club doesn't have a driveable par four - at least for me - but my old home club used to have a hole of around 280 yards that, the majority of the time, was one that I took a cut at with a driver or a spoon. The direct line to the green, from a slightly elevated tee, was over a copse of trees and gorse and around a 250 yard carry to reach the open area surrounding the green. If you missed the green with any sort of solid shot you were either in short rough or one of several greenside bunkers. The only fairway to be had was out to the right and in play with some sort of long iron lay-up (or a hideously skied/blocked wood). In those circumstances, I didn't count the hole as a potential fairway to be hit or missed. It was, effectively, a long par 3 since with a wood in my hands I simply had no chance of finding the fairway with my intended shot.

My philosophy for any similar hole is basically the same. If I have a cut at the green, with a realistic chance of actually making the distance, I'm not actually aiming for the fairway and so don't see a reason to mark it down as a target hit or missed. Knocking it on or hitting the green with a chip or bunker shot still counts as a GIR though and is still in the running for an up and down tick.

The driveable par 4 quandry seems to be a pretty inconsequential thing at first sight, but if you're playing a lot of golf at a particular course that has one (or more) genuinely driveable holes, it's a quirk of the system that could have some meaningful results on the stats that you see. There are two courses that I play fairly regularly which both feature a short (approximately 280 yard) par 4 where I am generally having a cut at the green. I leave the FIR box blank on those if I'm taking a headcover off. Hitting the fairway (or, almost inevitably, [i]not hitting it[/i]) on that one particular hole could amount to a seven percent difference in a FIR stat. Over the course of a lot of golf at that particular course, that's enough of a difference to actually count in a season-long stat record as far as I'm concerned.