New Rules in Effect and clarification of Rules *Update 5/16*

[Gxgolfer]

[quote name='devlin3000' date='18 May 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1274239826' post='2452116']
[quote name='Gxgolfer' date='18 May 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1274237749' post='2452020']
The BST is still free to buy, sell and trade. In order to place a For sales post, you must have 75 posts or be a ClubWRX member or pay a $5 insertion fee. Its the same concept as basic members vs ClubWRX members. Basic members have 20 MB of storage space and ClubWRX members have significantly more.
[/quote]

if this is the case, then why change?...I mean hit me with the brick here...
because now it really sounds like it is about controlling bandwidth or better yet [i][b]maintaining value of sale items for dealers...by controlling new members...not to reduce potential fraud.[/b][/i]


it's no wonder the charter members like this rule...because charter members are high volume sellers or dealers and they stand to make more profit if there is less competition for sales.
After all what re-course does the website and your charter members provide for someone who has been taken advantage in a sales transaction?
You have stated that you have limited liability and it's basically buyer beware...so what is the reason for the change then?

You have said it yourself that this rule will reduce traffic , further if you wanted to create a real statistical number you would use more then 30 days of data.
You would not just use a month where selling would naturally be up due to spring or prior to golf season beginning for most of us.

I enjoy this site but lets call it for what it really is...
I still love reading the posts both educational and the gripes...
Although I might not buy anything else from the site
[/quote]

Please carefully read all the threads and posts. Everything you just asked I have explained multiple times over the last 3 days. I have summarized it multiple times and have done everything but created a powerpoint.

[golfnut5438]

[quote name='devlin3000' date='18 May 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1274238430' post='2452048']
[quote name='golfnut5438' date='18 May 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1274230660' post='2451603']
I guess I should not be surprised by the reaction of some regarding this change in BST rules. After managing employees for 35 years I have seen these reactions more than I can count. The reaction to change, not self imposed change, are very similar to the five stages of grief. And individuals pass through these stages on their own time frame. Those stages are 1) [b]Denial[/b]-"this can't be happening to me." 2) [b]Anger[/b]-"why me?" 3) [b]Bargaining[/b] - attempting to make deals to reverse the change. 4) [b]Depression[/b] - overwhelming feelings of hopelessness, frustration and bitterness. and finally 5) [b]Acceptance[/b] - realization the change is there to stay. It will be interesting to see if all will be able to move through these stages or be stuck w/o finally "accepting" the change. If they can't, I hope they find peace somewhere else.

Mods - thanks again for the modifications to make this site the best it can be!!
[/quote]

friend, this a golf forum site not a corporation...leave your ramblings at work would you.

pretty soon will you be reciting the 10 steps as well...

[/quote]
I have no issue with your less than friendly remarks because it just lets the rest of us know you are still stuck at stage 2. Hope you can eventually move on and worry about something more important in your life as I will now and leave this post to others who enjoy .

[stage1350]

[quote name='devlin3000' date='18 May 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1274213303' post='2450876']
in reply, to the posts and member 'stage 1350'.
[i]In general I would agree with your comments. I am not above censoring myself and what I really think about someone or something. Further I actually enjoy this site and the general civility of it's members.
I what I take issue with is the [u][color="#4169e1"]'slap to the back of the head with the two by four'[/color][/u] threat by the mods.
[i]...when I replied to another poster on a thread... [/i]Perhaps after reading what I said I could agree that it might be mis-interpreted as a political statement...although not intended that way. [i]Duly noted...

[/i]parsed for brevity[/i]
I don't have to like the censorship thought. As someone who fled a country that had no political freedoms and rights, I am a strong advocate for free speech, however much it might 'grind' on me.
Because without freedom of speech and expression one really has no freedoms.

[i]parsed for brevity[/i]

I have noticed a decrease in web traffic. Which is good and bad... Good if you are trying to sell items...since they will not disappear off the first page within '45 minutes' as commented.
Bad if you are a buyer who's actually looking for deals, legitimate deals that is.
This is a troublesome situation for the owners of the website...you want to curtail the fake items and bogus sellers but you want to keep the legit people, including the low ranking (new) members...how do you do that?

[i] parsed for brevity [/i]

Understand, I do not mind paying $5.00 to pin my add to the top of the page...[color="#ff0000"][b]what I do mind is the decrease in sellers which increases the over all costs of the used equipment.
If that is the intent then ignore everything I have said...[/b][/color]
[b][i]if that is not the intent then the owners have to take a serious hard look at this part of their new rules.[/i][/b]


cheers mates

devlin
[/quote]

While I applaud you for escaping from an oppressive country and enjoying your freedom, it actually does NOT apply here. You are on a private site and your posting, conduct, and behavior are regulated by the TOS and site rules that you agreed to when you joined. Just like the law that you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded movie theater, there are limits to what you can say and express here as well.

There will be a short term drop in BST ads, but those clubs will be sold somewhere. Either they will pay $5, join ClubWRX, get to 75 posts, or go to eBay. I do not forsee this as a game changer on price. eBay still dictates what the public is willing to pay. Sellers aren't going to be able to charge premiums on WRX. If anything, just the opposite. Most members on this site study and know equipment trends and average market value of items they are looking for.

Again, with your post count, you don't have to pay anything, unless you want your ad pinned. The only people this affects are new posters who should have the courtesy of posting before they jump into selling. ClubWRX members can still post, regardless of post count. And everyone can still pay for an ad.

Can anyone tell me another site (besides Craigslist) that doesn't either make you pay or have a minimum post count to sell? For the sites that I frequent, minimum post counts are the general rule.

[teaz01]

Hi,
Monday, I was on the track and a friend asked what I thought of the new rules on GolfWrx. As I had no idea what he was referencing I checked it out and wrote, [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/375489-morality-for-sale-35/page__st__40"]"Morality For Sale - $35"[/url]. The post turned two pages in short order. It was insinuated that I should do more to contribute to the site and as far as being a leach to other peoples efforts.
I'm not lobbying for a concession to the rule. I'm not saying that I am entitled to sell for free. I am stating that none of the new posting and payment requirements will be an effective determent to a thief. I'm also expressing the mentality I have regarding my involvement to the site as it pertains to posting.
The BST is the biggest draw on the site currently. These rules just removed a percentage of product from the site. I see that percentage first taking their wares to BSG and ultimately EBay. Did the rules avert any crimes? Potentially yes, but foremost the new rules split a market and community. There are now words like elitist, nut hugger, gestapo, and nazi flying around the site. I remember a situation very similar to this in recent history.
Regretfully, Troy.

P.S. 5) Acceptance - realization the change is there to stay. [b]YTBD[/b]

[Gxgolfer]

The avg number of ads during a 30 day period is ~900. This rule effects about 300 posts. We get over 1k new post a day. What am I missing? How many page views do you suppose those 300 ads could generate?

[teaz01]

Hi,
As the numbers conclude; the effect of not allowing people with less than 75 posts to place adds or post in the BST is relatively minuscule in regard to posts. Losing 10 adds a day seems like an acceptable loss too. Marginalizing a percentage of the membership in order create a "safe haven" for the rest of the people using the forum makes good sense. It makes sense if the new rules are effective and not easily circumventable.
Frankly, I don't care about the numbers. I see a person who is meek and has little to say, we all know them in our lives. It is unfortunately a consequence that the least likely to offend are being treated like a potential thief.
Requiring one member to pay for a service while another does not is a double standard no matter how or why it is implemented.
Personally, the new rules will have little effect on my comings and goings. At the rate I post, I am looking forward to attaining full membership in the year 2015, yea. SCC.com in the year 3011, big yea.
Troy.

[Gxgolfer]

Who is requiring anyone to pay for a service?

By your logic then everyone should have driver license? Cause you know a test and a fee to take the test is unfair to all.

We have restricted nothing. There are now more rules in place in order to participate which the community wanted to feel safer.

I don't have to be the one to start a poll anyone here can and because ownership listened, we get smacked, accused, threatened, belittled, and persecuted. Oh and for such a hugely Nazi regime, there sure has been a lot of heated discussion allowed. But I'm sure there is some sinister motive behind that as well.

[teaz01]

Hi,
I'm not here to argue over how my words may be misconstrued. I hold the high ground. If you want to pull the majority rules and or sandbox card that is your prerogative.
I only wish I had the 75 posts so people could see past a personal motive.
Troy.

"Where there is no free agency, there can be no morality. Where there is no temptation, there can be little claim to virtue. Where the routine is rigorously proscribed by law, the law, and not the man, must have the credit of the conduct." [William H. Prescott, "History of the Conquest of Peru," 1847]

[Gxgolfer]

[quote name='teaz01' date='19 May 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1274316649' post='2454245']
Hi,
I'm not here to argue over how my words may be misconstrued. I hold the high ground. If you want to pull the majority rules and or sandbox card that is your prerogative.
I only wish I had the 75 posts so people could see past a personal motive.
Troy.

"Where there is no free agency, there can be no morality. Where there is no temptation, there can be little claim to virtue. Where the routine is rigorously proscribed by law, the law, and not the man, must have the credit of the conduct." [William H. Prescott, "History of the Conquest of Peru," 1847]
[/quote]

Really,

When was the last time someone questioned your character, morality, motive, and compared you to a Nazi? I don't need to "pull" cards and every time I use logic and reason I get questioned no matter what decision is made. You can come in and make a point and then move on but you have continued to engage and try to advance your point. If you disagree, then we agree to disagree but don't do so with a spiteful send off. Just state your op and be off without casting aspersion of motive or conduct.

[oregongolf]

[quote name='teaz01' date='19 May 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1274316649' post='2454245']
Hi,
I'm not here to argue over how my words may be misconstrued. I hold the high ground. If you want to pull the majority rules and or sandbox card that is your prerogative.
I only wish I had the 75 posts so people could see past a personal motive.
Troy.

"Where there is no free agency, there can be no morality. Where there is no temptation, there can be little claim to virtue. Where the routine is rigorously proscribed by law, the law, and not the man, must have the credit of the conduct." [William H. Prescott, "History of the Conquest of Peru," 1847]
[/quote]
You seem to have lots to add. Hit the new posts button and get to posting...

[teaz01]

Hi,
I'm not questioning your character. I am stating my own.
Troy.

[Asleep]

For those members struggling to reach the minimum post requirement, you can increase your post count by entering our [i]many[/i] [b]GolfWRX[/b] [b][i]giveaways[/i][/b]. Costs nothing.

Had you done so over just the last 6 months you'd be 20 posts closer and possibly a Mickelson putter richer in the process.

[Asleep]

[quote name='teaz01' date='19 May 2010 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1274316649' post='2454245']...I only wish I had the 75 posts...[/quote]
You have made 4 posts in 6 hours.

At that rate, you'll have 75 posts in [i][b]less than 3 days[/b][/i].

Now how difficult was that? And it didn't cost you a dime.

[AP2 712]

I'm glad to see you adding a touch of humor to this topic Asleep... I'm sure this topic has had you quite busy since it started!

[teaz01]

[quote name='Asleep' date='19 May 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1274318839' post='2454340']
[quote name='teaz01' date='19 May 2010 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1274316649' post='2454245']...I only wish I had the 75 posts...[/quote]
You have made 4 posts in 6 hours.

At that rate, you'll have 75 posts in [i][b]less than 3 days[/b][/i].

Now how difficult was that? And it didn't cost you a dime.
[/quote]

Hi,
Exactly my point, I know very little about golf and have even less to offer in the way of usable information. However, in the context of which my words were taken is something I aspire to more than any pursuit I've ever contemplated.
I commiserate with the management in this situation as there is no perfect solution. I also apologize to anyone who thinks that my words have been pertaining to them as that is simply not my intention.
Troy

[mjiafe]

As a relatively new member who hasn't really had a chance to accumulate the arbitrary 75+ posts, this kind of bothers me. So far I have had 4 perfectly satisfactory transactions on the BST forum (two of which the other party never got around to posting feedback), and I have been nothing short of a contributing member of the GolfWRX community. However, I am completely barred from posting an ad in the forum? This doesn't make sense. I know that the BST forum is a free service that GolfWRX provides, but this isn't really fair at all. It's not like the owners of the website aren't turning a profit overall. Yes, I could pay 5 bucks or pony up the fee to become a ClubWRX member. And to be honest, I was actually considering the latter until I saw these new rules. The spirit of the rules are fantastic (keep out the scammers and other riff raff), but the execution is quite poor.

The BST forum is what drew me to this particular website and what won my loyalty over the other similar websites out there.  However, I am very disheartened to find these new restrictions in place.

When I complain, I always try to have an alternative solution that would make the situation better. So, may I suggest the following:
-Add a fourth option to fulfill the New Ad posting requirement: Anyone with positive feedback can post a New Ad.

This would allow someone who has already demonstrated a level of trustworthiness and respect for the community (satisfactory transaction) to post an ad. This may sound slightly self-serving since it would immediately allow me to pass the test. However, it actually upholds the spirit of the new rule while reducing its arbitrariness and expanding its breadth to other deserving members of the GolfWRX community. Please let me know what people think about this, and thank you for your ears.

[mjiafe]

I would also like to note that I have been out of town for the past week and am just reading about all the changes now. I would definitely have contributed to the discussion before had I been aware that it was going on and able to do so.

Additionally, I don't want to come off as a poor sport or someone with a feeling of entitlement or anything like that. I just really enjoy this site and was a little put off by the change. Hopefully we can continue to work towards something that works for the entire community.

[ddm1106]

Personally, I have no problem with the new rule even though I am one of the members it will affect. Although I rarely post on the site, I like to use it as a reference when making purchases and typically only sell items in the BST for trade in value plus paypal and shipping to pass along good deals to other members so it's no skin off my nose to just trade in the old stuff instead. In reference to those who have said it will drive up the cost of items in the BST, I completely disagree. I looked earlier and on a Saturday afternoon at 2:30 there were only 12 people viewing the BST which is definitely more of a buyers market. I am not sure though that the changes will have much of an effect on fraudulent sellers, I still wouldn't buy from someone with no feedback even if they pay the fee. Just my 2 cents, good luck with the changes.

[funkyfedora]

Any way to stop fly by posting like this?

Edit: Forgot to add the second picture. The top 3 of the top 20 posters are people that are near the new posting limit. Coincidence? I think not, and I bet if you look at their posts, they aren't very meaningful or thorough...


Signed,
Concerned Poster

[Gxgolfer]

I just gave the user a 30 day time out. We have spotted 3 or 4 uses already and have been dealt with.

[stage1350]

Is this really all that people come here for? Maybe we should pay for EVERY for sale ad. Or, maybe 250 posts and/or a year on the bench before being able to sell. If everyone is going to play "post run" to get to 75, the bar was obviously set too low.

There also needs to be stronger repercussions on the people that can't read the rules. If you want to make the Mod's job easier, not only should you yank their ad, but bounce them for at least 30 days before they can use BST again. Since a lot of problems are from people that can't close their previous ad, 30 days would ensure that their clock is reset. Two birds...

[mjiafe]

No comment on my suggestion, GX?

[Stinger82]

[quote name='mjiafe' date='23 May 2010 - 08:53 PM' timestamp='1274662381' post='2462539']
No comment on my suggestion, GX?
[/quote]


He stated WAY back on page one that noone will be "grandfathered" in just because they already have positive feedback. I asked the question just because I was curious and I knew others would be as well and he answered it very quickly.

[Stinger82]

[quote name='Gxgolfer' date='15 May 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1273975678' post='2443990']
No grandfathering. Does not effect PMing members in the BST. This has been in public discussion for over a month. See the BST Ad help section for the ongoing thread about how it was decided.
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/365179-how-many-posts-should-a-member-have-to-be-able-to-post-a-bst-ad/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...-post-a-bst-ad/[/url]


There are paid alternatives for those who don't meet the 75 post requirement.

We do not condone Paypal gifting but, it is an unenforceable requirement and should be handle between buyer and sellers.
[/quote]


Here is the response from my question

[Gxgolfer]

"friends" can give each other feedback and no one would know if the transaction actually took place or not. The feedback system is better than nothing but really tough to link to anything.

[mjiafe]

[quote name='Stinger82' date='23 May 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1274667536' post='2462700']
[quote name='mjiafe' date='23 May 2010 - 08:53 PM' timestamp='1274662381' post='2462539']
No comment on my suggestion, GX?
[/quote]


He stated WAY back on page one that noone will be "grandfathered" in just because they already have positive feedback. I asked the question just because I was curious and I knew others would be as well and he answered it very quickly.




[/quote]


Thank you for pointing this out. My suggestion was slightly different in that it gave thoughtful, valid reasoning behind using the Feedback as part of the test. Compare this with grandfathering, which allows a current rule to be broken by certain people simply because they feel entitled to a privilege/term/condition/price that they enjoyed before the change. Grandfathering is a band-aid, while I am suggesting a material change that affects not only users from the past but also new users going forward. The difference is slight, but it is there. Regardless, I do appreciate you letting me know of GX's previous post.


[quote name='Gxgolfer' date='23 May 2010 - 07:48 PM' timestamp='1274669313' post='2462771']
"friends" can give each other feedback and no one would know if the transaction actually took place or not. The feedback system is better than nothing but really tough to link to anything.
[/quote]

Excellent point and one that I did not consider. If the site owners feel that this potential negative outweighs the positives of using feedback as part of the test, then I guess I can't really complain. I do feel better that this option was discussed.

Thanks for the comments.

[goodguy]

I understand you guys say friends can give good feedback. However if you post where you from on your profile it shows your location. Now I have 8 positive transactions that are not from my state of IL. How can they be my friends from 8 different states? I think they rule should be amended if You have over 5 positive transactions from people that are now around their area. I know this would be hard but just have the people PM the moderators and tell them that they have over 5 positive feedbacks. Most people on this site do not have time to post. I have been a member since 2006. Gxgolfer is the co-founder of this site and he was a member since 2005. Being a member for so long should also be considered. I disagree with the decision made. I guess I will have to live with it.

[stage1350]

[quote name='goodguy' date='30 May 2010 - 09:18 PM' timestamp='1275272337' post='2477070']
I understand you guys say friends can give good feedback. However if you post where you from on your profile it shows your location. Now I have 8 positive transactions that are not from my state of IL. How can they be my friends from 8 different states? I think they rule should be amended if You have over 5 positive transactions from people that are now around their area. I know this would be hard but just have the people PM the moderators and tell them that they have over 5 positive feedbacks. Most people on this site do not have time to post. I have been a member since 2006. Gxgolfer is the co-founder of this site and he was a member since 2005. Being a member for so long should also be considered. I disagree with the decision made. I guess I will have to live with it.
[/quote]

Serious question: is there anything that is preventing you from posting? I know some people are working for OEMs on this site and read, but rarely post.

The simple purpose of this rule is that there is more to this site than a BST. You'll get a bigger audience of potential buyers on eBay. If all you want to do is flip and sell, the only reason to come here instead of eBay is to not pay fees. And if that's the case, all you are doing is taking from this site and not giving anything. Either way, $5 is a pittance to list compared to listing and final value fees. Plus, the Mods will now have your PayPal information in case something does occur with the transaction.

Most of the good sellers here also post a lot. They have credibility because they post daily and sell decent goods at a fair price.

Nothing personally disgusts me more than seeing the person that posts "I have XXXX, (which research will tell you they got for cheap on eBay or a local shop 99% of the time) What's it worth?" It will be followed 12 hours later by a BST listing for this club. I find it much more insulting when they tell you that it was their grandfather's old putter that had "sentimental value" yet they will flip it for a buck in a minute.

[RollieA]

I just realized about this new rule, since I kept trying to post a FS add and it wouldn't post and I kept doing it for about 3 or 4 times thinking I was doing something bad. lol

I have done deals here and all have been great buying and selling. Charging is good since I know it take money to maintain and keep the site running. I also just read alot and not post very much since I'm kind of new to this sport, but I guess I will have to participate more. Since paying for the sale can get expensive for an unemployed person who loves the game.

[chicken tycoon]

I think its quite hilarious how people with a lot of posts support this rule, and people with very few think its crap. I also read a lot of posts on here, and contributions that make the site better are made in about 5% of the posts. I guess I'll go tell you whats in my bag 60 more times so I can finally sell it in the BST, cuz I'm hitting it like crap.