Rotational vs Lateral Movement

[caryk]

Low point, S&T and all things Slicefixer

I've thoroughly enjoyed the recent thread in here about "What is the secret to Ball First Contact?" and how many things, especially low point, hands ahead, forward shaft lean, etc are related to it. LOTS of great information and feedback in it. So it got me thinking, why is it that solid ball contact at impact is so hard to attain for many? Then I remembered a section I read awhile back from Slicerfixer's Encyclopedia Texarkana about "Rotational versus Lateral Movement".

Here's the excerpt from it that really caught my eye ...

"I spent countless hours trying to ingrain a bump to my left side, and all I got for it was a HUGE push, pushfade, or pushhook. I then watched a Hogan swing that I had on tape and noticed that his left hip at the top of the backswing was EXACTLY where it had been in the set-up when he reached the top of his backswing. In other words, he turned more INTO his right side rather than OVER his right side like most modern players do today (which necessitates quite a bit of lateral movement to get to the left side/pivot point).

Now, make no mistake, Hogan’s hips wound up and rotated a TON…more than is common in a lot of today's players. However, his left hip socket, when viewed from a face on position, had not moved laterally away from the target as is found in most players today.

THAT one thing basically turned my golf swing around. I then learned to turn in a way that eliminated the need to drive the lower body ten miles laterally to get to the left side. A lot of people THINK Hogan worked laterally a TON, but he really did not. He basically wound up his ENTIRE body and then unwound his ENTIRE body without a lot of lateral motion. Lateral motion does not create speed; rotary motion creates speed; lateral motion can create lag, and lateral motion can shallow the arms/club; but an overabundance of lateral motion spells inconsistency."

So it kinda dawned on me, if you take a took at S&T, they pretty much advocate the same thing ... i.e. keeping your left hip in the same spot (weight left at address) throughout the swing without a lot of lateral motion. Although I know there are differences between the two, both seem to create better ball contact then methods that emphasize more of a lateral shift to the right and then a bump back to the left, which can lead to a more inconsistent low point. So, is the real key that left hip and how it moves (or doesn't) in the swing?

Anyone else have some thoughts on this? Would sure enjoy hearing them.

[gmbtempe]

If you head moves around excessively, or your shoulders move in excess in a linear motion, this moves the circle around..........how do you have good low point control. Go watch a range session of tour pro's, they aint moving!

[hoganfan924]

Totally with Slicefixer on this one. To clarify further about his statements (since we've discussed it several times), when he says Hogan had no lateral motion [b][i]from the top of his backswing[/i][/b], he's defining the top of backswing to be the point when the club starts its change of direction. So Hogan had lateral motion, but it was completed during his backswing (the "backshift" that has been discussed here many times) so that he was already "posted" on his left leg and no additional lateral move was required in his downswing. Since Hogan's clubshaft was very low/flat, he didn't need lateral motion in the downswing to shallow it further, unlike most players today. It's important to understand how these pieces fit so cleanly together in order to appreciate what Hogan was doing.

There are certainly areas of commonality between S&T and what Slicefixer teaches, however one difference that I see is that while Slicefixer wants the left hip socket over the left ankle in the downswing, the pure S&T guys I see incorporate additional lateral motion that gets the left hip further forward (targetward). This gets their Cg's further forward than Slicefixer students with a steeper and more inside out angle of attack (hence their preference for push draws). Realize as well that the Slicefixer excerpt from the "encyclopedia" was his own personal journey that at that point in time was coming from the Ballard method (which he used for a few years), which has a ton of lateral motion in the downswing.

[caryk]

[quote name='hoganfan924' date='31 May 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1275335889' post='2478255']
There are certainly areas of commonality between S&T and what Slicefixer teaches, however one difference that I see is that while Slicefixer wants the left hip socket over the left ankle in the downswing, the pure S&T guys I see [b]incorporate additional lateral motion that gets the left hip further forward (targetward)[/b]. This gets their Cg's further forward than Slicefixer students with a steeper and more inside out angle of attack (hence their preference for push draws).
[/quote]
HF, I'm assuming that must be the S&T hip thrust move that seems to be so common in their swings. I know Slice is not a big proponent of that (i.e. upper body going backwards while the lower body is going forward).

Thanks for the information ... much appreciated!

[aviator]

This is where I've been struggling with the "Slice" method. Unfortunately for me I fight spinning to much and get steep. Then I either hit a pull or pull fade/slice. On the downswing what works for you guys to allow you to attack the ball from the inside instead of over/steep?

[liugolfer]

[quote name='aviator' date='31 May 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1275340534' post='2478460']
This is where I've been struggling with the "Slice" method. Unfortunately for me I fight spinning to much and get steep. Then I either hit a pull or pull fade/slice. On the downswing what works for you guys to allow you to attack the ball from the inside instead of over/steep?
[/quote]

When I go work with Slicefixer, I often present with 'spinny' symptoms. He has one of those orange driveway markers cut in half, which he has you thread through your front belt loops. If you spin, you will hit the rod.

[liugolfer]

[quote name='hoganfan924' date='31 May 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1275335889' post='2478255']
Totally with Slicefixer on this one. To clarify further about his statements (since we've discussed it several times), when he says Hogan had no lateral motion [b][i]from the top of his backswing[/i][/b], he's defining the top of backswing to be the point when the club starts its change of direction. So Hogan had lateral motion, but it was completed during his backswing (the "backshift" that has been discussed here many times) so that he was already "posted" on his left leg and no additional lateral move was required in his downswing. Since Hogan's clubshaft was very low/flat, he didn't need lateral motion in the downswing to shallow it further, unlike most players today. It's important to understand how these pieces fit so cleanly together in order to appreciate what Hogan was doing.

There are certainly areas of commonality between S&T and what Slicefixer teaches, however one difference that I see is that while Slicefixer wants the left hip socket over the left ankle in the downswing, the pure S&T guys I see incorporate additional lateral motion that gets the left hip further forward (targetward). This gets their Cg's further forward than Slicefixer students with a steeper and more inside out angle of attack (hence their preference for push draws). Realize as well that the Slicefixer excerpt from the "encyclopedia" was his own personal journey that at that point in time was coming from the Ballard method (which he used for a few years), which has a ton of lateral motion in the downswing.
[/quote]

+1. I had this exact discussion with him when I stayed with him this past winter. He practically gave this exact answer. Cool.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='aviator' date='31 May 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1275340534' post='2478460']
This is where I've been struggling with the "Slice" method. Unfortunately for me I fight spinning to much and get steep. Then I either hit a pull or pull fade/slice. On the downswing what works for you guys to allow you to attack the ball from the inside instead of over/steep?
[/quote]

Three things, all very important, IMO:

1. Make certain that your set-up is as he prescribes. If you're working on your own without having visited with Geoff, this is very easy to get wrong.

2. Re-establish the left pivot with the "crush the bug/can" move/feel as the downswing initiator. Really feel like you're stomping down hard with the left heel

3. The club must be shallow enough in the backswing. This is achieved in large part by rotating the left forearm (pronation) 1/2 way through the backswing. Don't rotate too early or the clubshaft will get too flat and too behind you. If the club is too steep in the transition, you'll pull it, or wipe it.

Of course, ball position is pretty important as well. If too far forward you'll struggle with pulls. Also, if your pivot is poor, with a slide off the ball, you'll have problems. Easy to see with video from behind.

[aviator]

[quote name='hoganfan924' date='31 May 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1275351204' post='2478868']
[quote name='aviator' date='31 May 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1275340534' post='2478460']
This is where I've been struggling with the "Slice" method. Unfortunately for me I fight spinning to much and get steep. Then I either hit a pull or pull fade/slice. On the downswing what works for you guys to allow you to attack the ball from the inside instead of over/steep?
[/quote]

Three things, all very important, IMO:

1. Make certain that your set-up is as he prescribes. If you're working on your own without having visited with Geoff, this is very easy to get wrong.

2. Re-establish the left pivot with the "crush the bug/can" move/feel as the downswing initiator. Really feel like you're stomping down hard with the left heel

3. The club must be shallow enough in the backswing. This is achieved in large part by rotating the left forearm (pronation) 1/2 way through the backswing. Don't rotate too early or the clubshaft will get too flat and too behind you. If the club is too steep in the transition, you'll pull it, or wipe it.

Of course, ball position is pretty important as well. If too far forward you'll struggle with pulls. Also, if your pivot is poor, with a slide off the ball, you'll have problems. Easy to see with video from behind.
[/quote]
I've had the pleasure to work with Geoff on a few occasions, but it's still a work in progress. I know that when I saw him a couple of months ago, I had the setup correct. But, my fault is that I struggle with wanting to get the club inside a bit on the takeaway and then I'm also messed up with the transition. For whatever reason in my mind's eye, when I think "rotate" hard I tend to get OTT/Spinny. I will try the crush the bug/can idea, that makes some sense. I was also thinking earlier that my ball position might be too far forward, which could be part of the problem. I appreciate the advice!

[tbfoster1]

What is the difference between a lateral motion and hip sway?

[russc1597187869]

Hoganfan

What exactly is it that is so easy to get wrong on the setup.I can see that it might be difficult to maintain the setup angles,but is this not done by maintaining the brace of the right knee throughout the backswing.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='russc' date='31 May 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1275357602' post='2479135']
Hoganfan

What exactly is it that is so easy to get wrong on the setup.I can see that it might be difficult to maintain the setup angles,but is this not done by maintaining the brace of the right knee throughout the backswing.
[/quote]

Maintaining the brace (and some flex) of the right knee is important to a proper pivot, as far as set-up, lot's of possibilities for things to be off, such as:

1. Lack of axis tilt
2. High right hip (no hip slant) - pelvis is too far rearward (away from the target)
3. Left hip too far targetward relative to the left ankle (overdoing the reverse K)

The key checkpoints can be seen from a [b]behind the back view[/b], where the following should be present:

Left ankle, hip joint and shoulder should all be aligned (straight, not necessarily vertically - depends on the club and trajectory desired)
The lumbar and thoracic segments of the spine (and preferably, cervical, although some additional held tilt should not present much of an issue) should be in a straight line with the shoulders perpendicular to this line and some hip slant.
Some axis tilt (varies with club and shot trajectory desired but typical for a mid-iron would be about 6-8 degrees)

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='caryk' date='31 May 2010 - 01:34 PM' timestamp='1275338093' post='2478360']
[quote name='hoganfan924' date='31 May 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1275335889' post='2478255']
There are certainly areas of commonality between S&T and what Slicefixer teaches, however one difference that I see is that while Slicefixer wants the left hip socket over the left ankle in the downswing, the pure S&T guys I see [b]incorporate additional lateral motion that gets the left hip further forward (targetward)[/b]. This gets their Cg's further forward than Slicefixer students with a steeper and more inside out angle of attack (hence their preference for push draws).
[/quote]
HF, I'm assuming that must be the S&T hip thrust move that seems to be so common in their swings. I know Slice is not a big proponent of that (i.e. upper body going backwards while the lower body is going forward).

Thanks for the information ... much appreciated!
[/quote]
When done correctly the head shouldn't move backwards at all.

[simplemind]

[quote]
3. The club must be shallow enough in the backswing. This is achieved in large part by rotating the left forearm (pronation) 1/2 way through the backswing. Don't rotate too early or the clubshaft will get too flat and too behind you. If the club is too steep in the transition, you'll pull it, or wipe it.
[/quote]

This just seems like far too much manipulation to put in my feeble brain. Personally I have had more luck just allowing the hands/arms to rotate naturally, ala Shawn Clement.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='simplemind' date='01 June 2010 - 10:30 AM' timestamp='1275402607' post='2479818']
[quote]
3. The club must be shallow enough in the backswing. This is achieved in large part by rotating the left forearm (pronation) 1/2 way through the backswing. Don't rotate too early or the clubshaft will get too flat and too behind you. If the club is too steep in the transition, you'll pull it, or wipe it.
[/quote]

This just seems like far too much manipulation to put in my feeble brain. Personally I have had more luck just allowing the hands/arms to rotate naturally, ala Shawn Clement.
[/quote]

Most people don't have enough forearm rotation "naturally" in the backswing, which is one reason why so many player cross the line at the top. If I were to summarize what Geoff teaches in one sentence it would be getting into position at the top of the backswing to allow the player to go full bore in the downswing with zero manipulation.

[tembolo1284]

This is a great thread.

[Atrayn]

I have to agree that this sway/lateral move issue was key to getting this swing right. I had multiple issues but this was key.

I first "got it" (the turn without sway issue) when I read another thread on bow/crossbow or the "lawnmower" move.
When I finally put the imagery of pulling a bow or pulling a lawnmower cord in my brain, along with turning the right pocket back, it all clicked.

I then kicked in my right knee at setup and then I started to really compress the ball. The proper turn and tilt finally came together.
I then had to overcome an awkward feel issue because I had a pronounced sway over my right foot, a vertical plane and an inside takeaway.

Once I changed, it really felt like I was taking the club way outside. I really wasn't though. Once I started turning instead of swaying, my arms were on the proper path.
The last part I had to add was the rotation of the forearms after the initial 10-12 inches straight back. Once this flattening happened, I was on plane the whole swing.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1325006823' post='3992617']
I have to agree that this sway/lateral move issue was key to getting this swing right. I had multiple issues but this was key.

I first "got it" (the turn without sway issue) when I read another thread on bow/crossbow or the "lawnmower" move.
When I finally put the imagery of pulling a bow or pulling a lawnmower cord in my brain, along with turning the right pocket back, it all clicked.

I then kicked in my right knee at setup and then I started to really compress the ball. The proper turn and tilt finally came together.
I then had to overcome an awkward feel issue because I had a pronounced sway over my right foot, a vertical plane and an inside takeaway.

Once I changed, it really felt like I was taking the club way outside. I really wasn't though. Once I started turning instead of swaying, my arms were on the proper path.
The last part I had to add was the rotation of the forearms after the initial 10-12 inches straight back. Once this flattening happened, I was on plane the whole swing.


[/quote]


Very cool! Thanks for your input.

[HawkeyeDan]

I am not very knowledgeable in Slicefixer's method...I have not read the ET yet, on the to-do list. I have, however, read the Stack and Tilt book. One of the things they reccommend is a straightening of the right leg (for righty's) on the backswing. Why is keeping the right knee flexed a better move? Are the moves similar and I am just misunderstanding the terminology each method uses?

Thanks guys - played maybe the last round of the year yesterday (I am in Iowa, its in the 30's and windy here), and plan on working on something in an indoor range over the winter.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='DeviousReevious' timestamp='1325014537' post='3993159']
I am not very knowledgeable in Slicefixer's method...I have not read the ET yet, on the to-do list. I have, however, read the Stack and Tilt book. One of the things they reccommend is a straightening of the right leg (for righty's) on the backswing. Why is keeping the right knee flexed a better move? Are the moves similar and I am just misunderstanding the terminology each method uses?

Thanks guys - played maybe the last round of the year yesterday (I am in Iowa, its in the 30's and windy here), and plan on working on something in an indoor range over the winter.
[/quote]

Among other reasons it will naturally restrict your hip turn,but even more important it will help to establish the elastic tension in your left lat,inner right thigh and glute that will semi-automate your downswing.

I am not knowledgeable on the S+T method,But it certainly has evolved over the years.While both methods might be considered centered swings,there are significant differences ,especially in the setup and where the weight is loaded going back

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1275365662' post='2479398']
[quote name='caryk' date='31 May 2010 - 01:34 PM' timestamp='1275338093' post='2478360']
[quote name='hoganfan924' date='31 May 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1275335889' post='2478255']
There are certainly areas of commonality between S&T and what Slicefixer teaches, however one difference that I see is that while Slicefixer wants the left hip socket over the left ankle in the downswing, the pure S&T guys I see [b]incorporate additional lateral motion that gets the left hip further forward (targetward)[/b]. This gets their Cg's further forward than Slicefixer students with a steeper and more inside out angle of attack (hence their preference for push draws).
[/quote]
HF, I'm assuming that must be the S&T hip thrust move that seems to be so common in their swings. I know Slice is not a big proponent of that (i.e. upper body going backwards while the lower body is going forward).

Thanks for the information ... much appreciated!
[/quote]
When done correctly the head shouldn't move backwards at all.
[/quote]

correct me if i'm wrong, but won't your 3 cogs be in one vertical line at address? You will be straight up and down or even slightly tilted toward the target right? I'm talking about the upper body. If this is true, then you have to back out of it with the upper body since all good players hit the ball with an upper body tilted away from the target.

Since you are going to be 60% left leg at address, it seems you definitely need massive hip drive and/or healthy backing out of it to reach the proper tilt away from the target with the upper body.

[Atrayn]

You know, the straightening of the right knee thing was something I worked on for quite a while....
I spent quite a few range sessions just concentrating on this. I found that I couldn't be consistent with or find the right amount of bend.

By accident, when I started working on tilt and pre-setting my tilt by kicking in my right knee, putting pressure on my instep, I found that I no
longer had to worry about the amount of flex in it because I couldn't kick in a straight right leg.

Once the knee is in and braced, it stays that way. When you rotate, it naturally straightens a bit but it stays slightly bent and taught.
This is what I believe is meant by keeping the knee bent.

[peacedog]

Overall I like the ideas presented in this thread, however, I have to admit that I got a bit lost and felt some info was too technical. Was wondering if someone could break down this info into amateur terms. Thanks

[Atrayn]

Which part is too technical? I'm pretty "layman" when I try to explain things I have discovered. The TGM jargon and and some scientific/technical descriptions make me think too much as well and can be quite confusing at times. That's why a visit to Slicefixer or Dan would be great moves for most as they can "lay hands" on you if trying to figure this out on your own gets overwhelming. Trust me, if I had the means, I would have saved myself a lot of aggravation by visiting Geoff. I just didn't have the patience to wait long enough until I could afford it.

I am going to try and get there in 2012, it will be interesting and I will chronicle how close I actually think I am to where Geoff evaluates me. Should be fun.

[ej002]

Dont SnTers now set up with a hair of spine tilt at address? I thought the head backing out or the hip thrust (lateral) was the band-aid for the longer stuff with SnT. (But I could be mis-informed).

[Atrayn]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1325085825' post='3996337']
Dont SnTers now set up with a hair of spine tilt at address? I thought the head backing out or the hip thrust (lateral) was the band-aid for the longer stuff with SnT. (But I could be mis-informed).
[/quote]


Here's a basic description from the man himself....

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_YepJ3wSs"]S&T setup[/url]

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1325087104' post='3996415']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1325085825' post='3996337']
Dont SnTers now set up with a hair of spine tilt at address? I thought the head backing out or the hip thrust (lateral) was the band-aid for the longer stuff with SnT. (But I could be mis-informed).
[/quote]


Here's a basic description from the man himself....

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_YepJ3wSs"]S&T setup[/url]
[/quote]


Cool, i'll have to check it out. Even if it is a hair of spine tilt...there'll be backing out either way since you need to be tilted at impact. I don't see any way around it. It's clearest with Charli Wi. Some youtube videos of him in Colonial last year when he was playing well...it's amazing how much in front of the ball his body is...and then at the last second he thrust up and back so as not to hit a stinger.

All cool to check out.

[Atrayn]

I studied this method as well before I drank the Slicefixer coolaid. The last portion where you start with the vertical spine and then have to keep the head back after impact screwed me up too much plus it caused me some back pain. I had back surgery 6 years ago and this move like the Miller reverse "C" were just not for me.

They do promote no lateral sway and staying centered over the ball, but the Slicefixer swing for me just makes more sense.

[rok78]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1325097603' post='3997121']
[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1325087104' post='3996415']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1325085825' post='3996337']
Dont SnTers now set up with a hair of spine tilt at address? I thought the head backing out or the hip thrust (lateral) was the band-aid for the longer stuff with SnT. (But I could be mis-informed).
[/quote]


Here's a basic description from the man himself....

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_YepJ3wSs"]S&T setup[/url]
[/quote]


Cool, i'll have to check it out. Even if it is a hair of spine tilt...there'll be backing out either way since you need to be tilted at impact. I don't see any way around it. It's clearest with Charli Wi. Some youtube videos of him in Colonial last year when he was playing well...it's amazing how much in front of the ball his body is...and then at the last second he thrust up and back so as not to hit a stinger.

All cool to check out.
[/quote]

In the little I know, the amount of axis tilt needed to hit the ball high is a little exaggerated. The "model" if there is one, is to use the hip slide towards the target to get the necessary axis tilt at impact to shallow out the angle of attack and insure a strike on the back half of the circle. The open face (relative to the target) helps keep loft on the face so (along with the shallow angle of attack) the dynamic loft at impact gets the ball airborne.

Wi backs up a little because he is a human being and not a machine.

[cbrian]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1325097603' post='3997121']
[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1325087104' post='3996415']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1325085825' post='3996337']
Dont SnTers now set up with a hair of spine tilt at address? I thought the head backing out or the hip thrust (lateral) was the band-aid for the longer stuff with SnT. (But I could be mis-informed).
[/quote]


Here's a basic description from the man himself....

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_YepJ3wSs"]S&T setup[/url]
[/quote]


Cool, i'll have to check it out. Even if it is a hair of spine tilt...there'll be backing out either way since you need to be tilted at impact. I don't see any way around it. It's clearest with Charli Wi. Some youtube videos of him in Colonial last year when he was playing well...it's amazing how much in front of the ball his body is...and then at the last second he thrust up and back so as not to hit a stinger.

All cool to check out.
[/quote]


What is secondary? Just COG differential right? So lower getting forward is an option for creating that right? So the head doesn't "have" to back out right?

I hate when you guys try to define the system by ONE player or ONE swing. Yes, there are preferences, but its about measuring the pieces and understanding the effects.

And according to some its been 0-5* at setup since the beginning. However, more is definitely an option... especially with the driver.