Five Lessons

[JOEGOLFWRX]

the modern fundamentals of golf

long musings on the book and how its read.

5 lessons
the modern fundamentals of golf


5 lessons will cover less than 'one-hundredth' of golf, that's < 1%

each 'lesson' will contain 'one or two fundamentals', so less than 10 fundamentals in total

'modern', to 'traditionalists','many of my ideas on the golf swing are quite revolutionary'


so lets say 8/9 fundamentals, some are new.


yet a fundamental is allowed a 'personal modifications or adjustments' depending on 'natural swing pattern and hitting action'.

the adjustment itself is not a fundamental in the global sense, 'the truly fortunate golfer is the one who needs to make the smallest number of adjustments.'


so in many ways despite its old world scholastic tone, the book is not just open to some personal interpretation, it advocates it, progression requires it.

the fundamentals have a hierarchy within, sometimes its 'must' sometimes its 'may'


when interpreted correctly, i don't think it is meant to or does create one pattern for all.

miss-interpretation comes from either poorly choosing which are the real fundamentals in each chapter at the expense of the true fundamental prescribed or assuming every single word is fundamental.

both cause a result in a 'connected world', that hogan couldn't of predicted when he was writing for the solitary reader in 1957.


imo the correct interpretive aspect producing similar yet different successful patterns is not accidental on hogans part, it's reasoned out and deliberate, to find and teach the true fundamentals of all great swings in hogans opinion, to as many people as possible, fundamental in the sense of 'common elementary source' of ones best golf. i doubt he was too concerned with those in the misinterpretation category, they essentially don't share his opinion.


the one flaw imo is the man is as big as the book, his own story influences the text, sometimes literally, firstly he had a 'secret' not included which allowed him to really go after it when needed without the odd snapper which according to chain action will have a trace running right back to the setup he choose, and he played a stock fade where as the book has a slight draw bias for the beginner imo.

great book though, half of tgm in short and easy read ...lol.

[LYG]

Well, slightly different opinion.

***Considered by far to be the best book -- if you could only have one.***

Larry Nelson used it to break 40 in a month and become scratch < one year. Many others have been hugely influenced.

The virtues of the book:

- Covers true fundamentals and gives the golfer and understanding of, anatomically, what is going on.

- Swing plane was new, revolutionary at the time.

I think the book it WONDERFUL....I think the only place where people could go wrong is that the dynamic weight shift is NOT as emphasized as it could be. So much on the turn and uncoiling...Mr. Hogan could have (if he wanted) reinforced weight shift more.

Mr. Hogan said "there is no baloney in there!" with emphasis...I take that to mean, "these are the basics."

To reply to the Original Poster: It is kind of like the 10 Commandments...simple. But SO MUCH to really follow them.

Thanks, Lawson

[Guest]

There is some contradictory stuff in there. A couple that come to mind:

1. Retard the hips, if you turn them to much you can create no tension in the backswing
Then you see the drawings that Chris posted with a full 45 degree hip turn and the pic of the golfer coiling the hips back deeply with the stretchy band attatched.

I think he ment you retard the hips against the right thigh at 45 degrees, instead of turning them 60 degrees or so and coming way up on your toe like Bobby Jones.

2. Elbows close together.
Just don't see him doing that ever.

3. Clubhead starts back first, then hands, arms, shoulders, then hips.
If anything I see Hogan starting the swing with everything together or to some extent exactly like Bobby Jones described; Body first, then arms, then clubhead. The lower body leads on the downswing, why would you start it last on the backswing.

I'm sure there's more if I took the time to dig it out. He also goes into great deal describing events that happen automatically. He describes some things in such a way that it mistakenly makes you think it's a conscious move. A LOT of it is automatic.

In order to write a book about the golf swing Hogan had to think about the swing in ways he never has. And, he had to express it in a way in which he never had. Maybe some of it is simply philosophy on how a swing "should" be. Not necessarily how he did it.

I think studying his actions along with Bobby Jones, Mickey Wright, Snead, and Nicklaus will help your swing more than anything in the world. Got to find it yourself.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

i don't mean to slight the book LYG, its incredibly well crafted, and i'd agree with almost all you said, especially the 'no baloney' part, he said in one interview that he was planning on writing a huge book on mechanics, and in the same interview that he 'wouldn't change a word' of 5 lessons, which is curious, ...compare that to mike and andys view on the golf digest article, ...kind of what leads me to my view on the book. a hierarchy of fundamentals, the lucky few will need no tweaks, the unlucky ones that need tweaking should adjust lower rung fundamentals first before higher ones, that's hogans quickest map to the readers potential best swing.

i think he may have clouded the lateral because he cast such a big net for potential readers, from larry nelson to the 1950's 100+ shooter.

it gets referenced here a lot so i thought it might be interesting to hear others take on it, even if its rambley like mine, lol, i'm guessing it could be a bit twee for the uber educated swing guys here.


trajectory, i see definite contradictions in the book with what he did, venturi even quizzed him on it, my guess is he had to tweak more than most, bio-mechanically it didn't come easy like for snead who was born to play golf, plus he had to tweak some more to gain an added edge. his exact swing isn't the best starting place or destination for most, and even if it was its not for sale for the price of a paperback.

re:the elastic band, there is clouded lateral in the imagery, the band is over his knee in both images, like the board moves forward a few inches, that's how i always read it, lol, but i've always had fast hips, i probably prefer the post secret pre-accident stuff.

[LYG]

Trajectory and Joe:

Thanks, great feedback.

I'm replying to both of your comments...I agree with part of them. I think the CONFUSION comes from, as one of you said, Hogan "cast a wide net" and I think he had the poor golfer more in mind, as I will explain...in my opinion.

HIPS/SHOULDER TURN GOING BACK
Trajectory, he clearly says that you HOLD the hips going back and they are PULLED BACK by the shoulders. He certainly advocated in the book a 45 degree hip turn and 90 degree shoulder. Today's modern players seem to be so physically skilled they can turn only 30 or 35 degrees with the hips (or less!) and still get 90 degree of shoulder turn. But Hogan certainly stated in the book that the shoulders pull the hips back, creating the torque. Really stressed by him.

ELBOWS
I think he had the poor golfer in mind ...ie with a flying right elbow and wanted to reign that in. If you ever teach (I used to professionally) you need to EXAGERATE the explanation to get people to make change. Hogan knew that. That's why he stated the TIGHT elbows. To get people away from a ton of flying right and/or left elbows. He wanted "connection" -- if you use Jimmy Ballard language, for example.

As you said, Hogan did NOT do this. Many people point that out, ie Jim McLean in his video on Hogan etc. Hogan's waggle included somewhat loose-ish arms against the chest. (I think he might have "snugged them up a bit" after he took it back.) The left arm for sure was close to his chest and right elbow coming down.

He did, however want the ARMS TOGETHER -- hence the illustration of the rope binding the arms together as a drill. He carried a belt in his golf bag...I know this as I used to get lessons from a fellow touring pro of Hogan, Paul Weiler, who got some swing help from Hogan in the 1950's. You may have seen photos of Hogan practicing the belt drill. As a drill with mini swings...even full swings.

AUTOMATIC
If you reread, he clearly states the "chain reaction" and things being automatic, which occur automatically if you do the proper things leading up to that.

Just my thoughts.

It is easy to OVERANALYZE "5 Lessons" but I am like Chris...these fundamentals ring true. I believe if you did a poll of 1,000 PGA Teaching Pro's on the best single book (not even giving them options to select from) a large majority would say 5 Lessons.

Thanks! This is great discussion, not intended to be debate.

Thanks, Lawson

[michaelgb888]

I agree with what others (slice, magnum, eight, sevam, and others) have been saying--that all there is that you need to know is in 5L.

I've read a lot, and very very few come close to it (abe mitchell's books are close), and that is coming from an amateur who touched a golf club in his thirties and just been doing it for 4years. For someone who've been doing it for so long, it will be difficult to follow all of 5L because you would have to change a lot, which most probably have been working so well already, so why change right? That's probabaly explains why they just follow some of it in 5L and others they discard in order to conform 5L to their own swing.

Just a piece of my amateur mind.

Best.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

imo with all the over analysis there are 2 chapters that almost get ignored,

the first is 'the fundamentals' maybe because it has no number of 1 to 5, or the lack of detail and contrasting style means its glanced over, its the reason for my OP. did it come with chapter 1 in the original serialization ? it may have held more importance in that format.

the second is the last chapter, specifically the part of rewinding the swing back, imo this is the theoretical basis for the methods 'correctness' and probably should have been duplicated in the first chapter.

he beat himself silly on the range for years before the book came out so at least some of the bio-mechanical efficiency of the action must of been a result of a physical exhaustion.

imo essentially the theory involves strapping jimmy demarrets impact wrists to a hip powered pivot for added consistency, a balanced finish on one side and an efficient flail on the other.

this is why id agree with swooshthud in the other thread that the backswing didn't mater, its important/critical but the aesthetics cant corrupt the goals of the paragraph above.

flexibility, bio mechanical relative length of levers, hand speed, location of fast twitch muscles, athletic ability and ultimately ball flight and practice will dictate the tweaking necessary for each individual. but the above goals can never limit you, you can never progress to a stage where you need less balance, less efficiency from release point etc. hence the wide net.

obviously there is the problem of turning the corner with a certain hand speed and rate of closure etc, but for the better and more than likely keen student they have to dig out that answer themselves, the 100+ shooter with less snap, smoother corners, more connection will find a pivot speed that best works.

[atlanta golfer]

I bought the book and read it many years ago when I was not a serious golfer, and I learned very little from it. I just could not relate to it, and when I tried to emulate the advice, things didn't work for me very well.

However, now that I play a lot, play better, and am much more informed and serious about the game, I find the book extremely helpful. Some of the details such as the section on the grip, are very hard to find in correct detail, anyplace else. I think the more you play the game, the more meaningful the book is.

Which probably means the book is not suitable for a beginner, but is a fantastic reference for more experienced golfers.

imho.

[JD3]

Those of you stating he didn't practice what he preached about elbows close together [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk&feature=related"]cannot be serious.[/url]

[JOEGOLFWRX]

he didnt pull them apart, but the closeness was achieved more dynamically early in the takeaway, with a softer bent left elbow than in the book. the book depicts more connection on the left, right being optional afai-remember, straight left arm, more supination of the left elbow, more one piece takeaway, Y steeple imagery, pitch right elbow in both, but with more straight right arm in follow through. seems like he knew he had fast hand speed, but it wasn't 101 in the book.

[Diz]

softer bent elbow...i agree ..

[LYG]

The topics to avoid.... very controversial...

Politics

Sex

Religion

Hogan's swing

[elunoputter]

[quote name='LYG' timestamp='1281555602' post='2632843']
Well, slightly different opinion.

***Considered by far to be the best book -- if you could only have one.***

Larry Nelson used it to break 40 in a month and become scratch < one year. Many others have been hugely influenced.

The virtues of the book:

- Covers true fundamentals and gives the golfer and understanding of, anatomically, what is going on.

- Swing plane was new, revolutionary at the time.

I think the book it WONDERFUL....I think the only place where people could go wrong is that the dynamic weight shift is NOT as emphasized as it could be. So much on the turn and uncoiling...Mr. Hogan could have (if he wanted) reinforced weight shift more.

Mr. Hogan said "there is no baloney in there!" with emphasis...I take that to mean, "these are the basics."

To reply to the Original Poster: It is kind of like the 10 Commandments...simple. But SO MUCH to really follow them.

Thanks, Lawson
[/quote]

David Leadbetter has a good book about the five lessons.. He tells you where he agrees and where he doesn't. The first time I read ben's book, I broke 90 for the first time...went right to 77. If you look at Tom Watson's new dvd, it is very close in appearance..

where I disagree is on the left hand grip and Leadbetter explains that Hogan was a bad hooker so that is why he did what he did.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='LYG' timestamp='1281642882' post='2634991']
The topics to avoid.... very controversial...

Politics

Sex

Religion

Hogan's swing
[/quote]

LOL ...yeah, that's half why i was asking about the bigger picture, how people here approached the book as a whole, how they reconcile any discrepancies they might see with hogans own swing in a general sense, etc.

...easy to drift into some mechanical specifics, but each of these has a thread on their own, so wasn't after more of the same.

maybe a poll would of been smarter ...lol.


@Diz, funny enough looking at tiger putting today its a pretty good representation of the set

[grahler]

I have played golf off and on since early childhood-Hogan's Five Lessons took me from a hot and cold player to consistency.
The right elbow towards right hip and close elbows is SOOOO IMPORTANT.
The downswing plane line pointing right of target was AWESOME.
The left hand grip? Well I can't grip that weak because my forearms don't look like Hogan's.
Hogan's book dictates proper sequence but most simple cannot pivot like him
but for me the hip elastic bandis right on if your weight isalready left.
I love that book day after reading it I shot a personal best.
4 months after some small work on my full swing I have shavedsome strokesoff the old handi so thats great.
I believe this book has something for golfers at all levels if you are truly interested in improving your full swing.
You may not be as flat as Hogan or grip like Hogan but thats what is great his conceptas apply to all golfers.
LOVE THE BOOK

[JD3]

[quote name='Diz' timestamp='1281629941' post='2634592']
softer bent elbow...i agree ..
[/quote]
At what point?

[Diz]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1281671884' post='2635786']
[quote name='Diz' timestamp='1281629941' post='2634592']
softer bent elbow...i agree ..
[/quote]
At what point?
[/quote]

at address..