14 club rule

[TreyMark]

what's the ruling here?

Believe me when I say, having to ask this question p***es me off royally, but I'd like to know the answer.

A teammate of my knowing played a tournament (collegiate nonetheless) where he carried 15 clubs in the bag...he said he noticed it at some point during the round, and did not remove the club NOR take the penalty strokes. So he played all 18 holes with 15 clubs and added zero penalty strokes.

So what's the ruling? 2 strokes for each hole? So add 36 to his score? Or if you complete the whole round, is it a DQ?

Second part, for those who'd like to answer...is this something I tell coach about? Or keep my mouth shut? Either way, it still irks me that he said he knowingly saw he had 15, didn't stop-remove club-add strokes, and continued the rest of the round. NOT happy about this at all.

[Rohlio]

 

"Penalty For Breach Of Rule 4-4a or b, Regardless Of Number Of Excess Clubs Carried:

Match play - At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred; maximum deduction per round: Two holes.

Stroke play - Two strokes for each hole at which any breach occurred; maximum penalty per round: Four strokes.

Bogey and par competitions - See Note 1 to Rule 32-1a.

Stableford competitions - See Note 1 to Rule 32-1b.

 

c. Excess Club Declared Out of Play

 

Any club or clubs carried or used in breach of Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4 must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred. The player must not use the club or clubs for the remainder of the stipulated round.

 

Penalty For Breach Of Rule 4-4c: Disqualification."

 

 

 

So to answer your question. The fact that he knew it and didn't say anything means he should be disqualified.

 

As for saying something to your coach, you will have to make that decision. I guarantee you one thing if you choose to say something; you will learn what type of man your coach is. I personally would say something because the actions of a teammate reflect on the entire program, and I don't want to be involved with a team that cheats. First however I would tell my teammate exactly what I thought of what he did and give him the chance to tell the coach himself. If he didn't I would go to the coach myself.

 

[BogeyDog11]

+2. Very good reply. Not much more to be said.

[highergr0und]

Well he should have gotten a four stroke penalty, since that's the max under the rule. Since the round completed and he didn't take the strokes, he should be DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard.

I would definitely say something.

[JJK947]

I wouldn't tell the coach, I would talk to your teammate first. If he still seems nonchalant about it then I might go to the coach but I wouldn't go ratting out my teammates for something like that. If he is really a cheater, than he will get whats coming to him eventually.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='highergr0und' timestamp='1286206925' post='2727585']
Well he should have gotten a four stroke penalty, since that's the max under the rule. Since the round completed and he didn't take the strokes, he should be DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard.
[/quote]

The penalty for breaching the rule is disqualification. Even if he had taken the 4 stroke penalty, he would have been DQ'd for not declaring the extra club out of play when he discovered the situation.

[TreyMark]

[quote name='JJK947' timestamp='1286209065' post='2727647']
I wouldn't tell the coach, I would talk to your teammate first. If he still seems nonchalant about it then I might go to the coach but I wouldn't go ratting out my teammates for something like that. If he is really a cheater, than he will get whats coming to him eventually.
[/quote]

I already did talk to him about it...hence why I knew he played with 15 even after he discovered it.

His excuse/reasoning "well my score didn't matter anyways" (he was competing as an individual).

[JJK947]

[quote name='TreyMark' timestamp='1286213068' post='2727757']
[quote name='JJK947' timestamp='1286209065' post='2727647']
I wouldn't tell the coach, I would talk to your teammate first. If he still seems nonchalant about it then I might go to the coach but I wouldn't go ratting out my teammates for something like that. If he is really a cheater, than he will get whats coming to him eventually.
[/quote]

I already did talk to him about it...hence why I knew he played with 15 even after he discovered it.

His excuse/reasoning "well my score didn't matter anyways" (he was competing as an individual).
[/quote]

Ok, I understand. I guess my main point was that my personality would lead me in the direction of letting cheaters be cheaters and let them get whats coming to them in the future. If it was me in that situation, I would not have the time or interest to be bothered by something like that. Sure, cheating is detrimental to the game of golf but like you said, this guy wasn't even on the team's score.

If I learned anything from my years in high school golf, it's that these type of guys develop a reputation for what they are doing and they will never go anywhere if they make it a habit. It is good that you confronted him about the issue but in a "team" situation I really try not to be "that guy" who tattles on their team mates. I might inform other team mates if the conversation comes up but not the coach.

[TreyMark]

If this was high school golf I wouldn't care as much. But this is college golf here we are talking about. You are having your education paid for to compete. I just feel as though we should be held to a higher standard.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='JJK947' timestamp='1286214985' post='2727832']
. . . I guess my main point was that my personality would lead me in the direction of letting cheaters be cheaters and let them get whats coming to them in the future. [/quote]


While it's easier to look the other way, if everybody does that then cheaters will never get what's coming to them.

And it's likely that this young man who cheated will end up embarassing himself in an even worse way sometime down the line -- in a competition where his score does matter.

My vote is with Rohlio. Let the kid who cheated have the chance to learn from his indescretion now.

O.P., ask yourself, "If it later comes out that I knew about the cheating but said nothing, how will I feel about my silence?"

[Asleep]

You to your teammate: [b][i]Either you tell him or I will. And if you force me to tell him, I'll also tell him that I gave you ample time to own up to it and you wouldn't. You've got 3 days.[/i][/b]

If you feel the need, choose(wisely) another teammate to assist you in persuading him to do the right thing.

[RickK]

You've gotten some great answers. But, I would also add....in the next tournament, I would walk up to him, look in his bag, and ask him directly "Only got 14 clubs in there?"

[TreyMark]

Would I go to coach, or maybe my captain? I've been leaning towards the latter today, but just curious what ya'll thought?

[Sawgrass]

You're clearly uneasy about this, and I'm sure it's a hard decision.

Maybe you might like to consider talking to either the captain or coach in hypothetical terms, and only then making your final decision after you smoke him/her out a bit: "Coach, I have a question. If I saw one of your players doing X, in your opinion, what's my obligation to the team? What should I do?"

[Ghost_Orchid]

If/when you rat him out, he might flat out deny it, then its up to the coach to mediate.

I think you should give him the chance to come clean, if he doesn't, then you let the captain and the coach know.

Good luck.

[takafam]

So just curious, being the tournament/match is over the competitor can't really be disqualified can he and it is a mute point? If he had won would the committee disqualify him a week later or a day later is there a time frame to make a claim? I would think the timeframe to make a claim is past. I know what the decision says for match play but wondering if stroke is different. Obviously what he did is wrong.

At a minimum it is a good learning lesson for you and you will learn more from this than he ever will. Next time before the tournament make it a point to remind the team of the 14 club rule. I learned the hard way 2 weeks ago with my club pro when it was discovered he had 15 in the bag during a 2 man best ball. Honest mistake and he felt horrible but guess who counts his partners clubs now. The past is the past and you can't do anything about it but the future is something you can. Do what is right for you and the team.

[Augster]

[quote]His excuse/reasoning "well my score didn't matter anyways" (he was competing as an individual).[/quote]

If his score didn't matter, I wouldn't sweat it. Does it really matter if he finished DFL or DFL + DQ?

I wouldn't play him for money in the future though.

Though, guys like this are the reason high school tourneys have the "no ball in your pocket" local rule.

[Newby]

[quote name='takafam' timestamp='1286245847' post='2728782']
So just curious, being the tournament/match is over the competitor can't really be disqualified can he and it is a mute point? If he had won would the committee disqualify him a week later or a day later is there a time frame to make a claim? I would think the timeframe to make a claim is past. I know what the decision says for match play but wondering if stroke is different.
[/quote]

[b]Rule 34[/b]

In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke-play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

[b]Exceptions:[/b]A penalty of disqualification must be imposed after the competition has closed if a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Competitor"][i]competitor[/i][/url]:

[indent][b](i) [/b]was in breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14254#1-3"]1-3[/url] (Agreement to Waive Rules); or

[b] (ii)[/b] returned a score card on which he had recorded a handicap that, before the competition closed, he knew was higher than that to which he was entitled, and this affected the number of strokes received (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14264#6-2"]6-2b[/url]); or

[b](iii)[/b] returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14264#6-6"]6-6d[/url]) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred; or

[b](iv)[/b] knew, before the competition closed, that he had been in breach of any other [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i]Rule[/i][/url] for which the penalty is disqualification.

[/indent][url=""][/url]
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[takafam]

Thank You I was looking all over the rule book for this. Just got into the rules book this year trying to understand this crazy game and all the rules. Surprising how many times I used my new found knowledge this year.


[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1286437981' post='2732461']
[quote name='takafam' timestamp='1286245847' post='2728782']
So just curious, being the tournament/match is over the competitor can't really be disqualified can he and it is a mute point? If he had won would the committee disqualify him a week later or a day later is there a time frame to make a claim? I would think the timeframe to make a claim is past. I know what the decision says for match play but wondering if stroke is different.
[/quote]

[b]Rule 34[/b]

In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke-play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

[b]Exceptions:[/b]A penalty of disqualification must be imposed after the competition has closed if a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Competitor"][i]competitor[/i][/url]:

[indent][b](i) [/b]was in breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14254#1-3"]1-3[/url] (Agreement to Waive Rules); or

[b](ii)[/b] returned a score card on which he had recorded a handicap that, before the competition closed, he knew was higher than that to which he was entitled, and this affected the number of strokes received (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14264#6-2"]6-2b[/url]); or

[b](iii)[/b] returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14264#6-6"]6-6d[/url]) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred; or

[b](iv)[/b] knew, before the competition closed, that he had been in breach of any other [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i]Rule[/i][/url] for which the penalty is disqualification.

[/indent]
[b]
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[/quote]

[JCLJorgenson]

I'm gonna go against the norm here and tell you I probably wouldn't say anything to the coach in this scenario. If the guy is a habitual cheater or he or the team benefited from the mistake, yes, something should be said. But if he had an uneventful round and his score didn't count for anything anyways, it's probably not worth creating the drama. Golf is a sport that demands some good honesty and integrity. Telling the coach probably won't even change the guy anyways, just be proud that you have more integrity than him.

[Rohlio]

[quote name='JCLJorgenson' timestamp='1286513742' post='2734024']
I'm gonna go against the norm here and tell you I probably wouldn't say anything to the coach in this scenario. If the guy is a habitual cheater or he or the team benefited from the mistake, yes, something should be said. But if he had an uneventful round and his score didn't count for anything anyways, it's probably not worth creating the drama. [u][b]Golf is a sport that demands some good honesty and integrity.[/b][/u] Telling the coach probably won't even change the guy anyways, just be proud that you have more integrity than him.
[/quote]

So if you know that one of your teammates is cheating and you don't say anything to avoid drama how does that display "Honesty and integrity"?

Also if a guy cheats when it "doesn't matter" you think he is going to play it straight up when it does and the benefit of cheating is increased?

[Pweb44]

Most teams I have been on (I've never been on a golf team, but other sports) you could take this kind of issue to the team captain first. They will either take the issue up with the person directly and if no results/imporvement then the captain will get the coach involved. I've been captain myself of several hockey teams and only once did I have to get the coach involved, other times as captain, we as teammates would be able to turn things around. The coaches usually have other things to deal with and would prefer the leadership on the team step up and deal with this type of thing earlier.

A good captain will talk to the guy and explain that his actions of knowingly having 15 clubs in the bag could put the entire team in a bad spot if he was caught breaking the rules. The other players on the team would not want to penalized because of the actions of 1 player. If the next tourney after the captain and teammate had talked and he still had the extra clubs in the bag, then bring the coach in to resolve the issue.

While I wouldn't suggest to let it go, I would also not want to be the one that goes running to the coach, let the team captain do his job first. If this guy is not willing to accept what he did is wrong and could be dangerous to the team; ie running the risk of finishing lower in the standings because extra storkes are added to their score or the entire team DQ'd then he is not a team player.

[JCLJorgenson]

[quote name='Rohlio' timestamp='1286554113' post='2734470']
Also if a guy cheats when it "doesn't matter" you think he is going to play it straight up when it does and the benefit of cheating is increased?
[/quote]
I think for some people, yes, that is very possible. The guy starting the thread should know better than me though. It sounds like he hasn't been aware of any other issues from the past.

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='Rohlio' timestamp='1286554113' post='2734470']
[quote name='JCLJorgenson' timestamp='1286513742' post='2734024']
I'm gonna go against the norm here and tell you I probably wouldn't say anything to the coach in this scenario. If the guy is a habitual cheater or he or the team benefited from the mistake, yes, something should be said. But if he had an uneventful round and his score didn't count for anything anyways, it's probably not worth creating the drama. [u][b]Golf is a sport that demands some good honesty and integrity.[/b][/u] Telling the coach probably won't even change the guy anyways, just be proud that you have more integrity than him.
[/quote]

So if you know that one of your teammates is cheating and you don't say anything to avoid drama how does that display "Honesty and integrity"?

Also if a guy cheats when it "doesn't matter" you think he is going to play it straight up when it does and the benefit of cheating is increased?
[/quote]

Im with you, but maybe the guy is an honest dude but he really just thinks it wasnt a big deal since his round was meaningless. Maybe he thought to himself "thank god this round didnt count or id have to bring this up and have a problem.." , and he's just thankful that it was no biggie so that he can learn from it without a big mess.