New Hogan Book by Tschetter

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1291485520' post='2823180']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1291449490' post='2822774']
So so true. Foe example ulnar deviation is 90% of wrist action, and in that way of move there is about no force toward the target.

[/quote]

Hello TeeAce,

if ulnar deviation is 90 % of wrist action then please explain me how Mr. Hogan returned at impact to the shaftplane...
Modern day players use a lot of ulnar deviation, but Mr. Hogan?

[attachment=693690:BenHoganDSLP1.jpg][attachment=693691:BenHoganDSLP6.jpg]
[attachment=693692:TA3DSLP1.jpg][attachment=693694:TA3DSLP6.jpg]

In the 1950´s most players released like Mr. Hogan on the shaftplane - how they did it - I don´t know but with ulnar deviation they would need
more upright modern day equipment or they would hit toe down divots, which they not did.

Maybe I misinterpret ulnar deviation, but I would be thankful if you can explain how this can work together ( returning on shaftplane + ulnar deviation).

Chris
[/quote]

Hmm... need to try at least,even it can be about most difficult thing as written

If You look at the first picture top left of Your posting, there is as much UD as possible, but that was not actually my point, because I don't believe any more that wrists can give much power.

Let's take the position at dsw when wrists are hip high and we still got full hinge on wrists. Forget the ball and just turn keeping Your hands at that height and keep the angle steady in Your wrists. What You achieve? Hands will come to the line of ball, club still pointing up and the back of Your palm has turned about 90 degrees and is now pointing to the target (about) when it pointed toward the face on camera when we started. Now if You want to bring Your club head to the ball, what is the direction of that move? It's only UD and lowering Your hands. So there is not even bit of move toward the target when You release Your wrists. It's only one of the biggest 2D-illusions in golf swing.

I know this is very radical opinion and should not be taken as 100% like I put it, but it's something I believe after years of investigations. In Our measurements we can see clearly that hand speed is most important thing that has correlation with club head speed. Not the wrist action.

Still have to say that keeping the wrist angle as far as possible is still very important. I believe that is the key to get great hand speed when putted together with rotation speed of hips and shoulders.

I hope You get my idea even the story is quite complicated.

[Jim Waldron]

TeeAce - well said. This wrist action Illusion is one of the key principles of the Balance Point method, and I would say radical for sure, most of my students who have really grasped the concept and seen through the Illusion have called it revolutionary. Very tough to explain even remotely adequately through the written word though. Again, you need to be able to think it through piece by piece, like assembling a jigsaw puzzle, to be able to eventually have a real 3D spatial/visual understanding.

Best way is to play around on a plane board and you can see how the proper blending of the pivot action with the wrist action and a bit of forearm rotation allows the shaft to stay on the address or at least the elbow plane through impact. Only a foot or so of clubhead moving toward target just before impact is from wrists unc-cocking in the toward the target or horizontal dimension, as you said, about 90% is in the down and out dimension, which also as you said, can leave the golf swing researcher with only one logical conclusion, which is that wrist action - as commonly understood - does not contribute as much to power application as many believe.

Again, that statement is somewhat of a an over-generalization, but the fact still remains that the primary direction of independent wrist action during release is not toward the target, or on a line parallel to the target line, but at an almost right angle to the target line. (Please, for god's sake, NO - I am not saying this has ANYTHING to do with Kern's so-called angle!!) But that statement is only literally true if you are trying to isolate independent wrist uncocking action from the pivot motion. In the real world, they cannot be separated. Tilting the spine to the right and upper arm rotation during Transition will also bring the hands and thus the wrists onto more of slightly angled plane than literally perpendicular to the ground.

In our golf schools, this is always one of the really big light bulbs for our students and when you really "get it" it can lead to immediate and dramatic improvement in one's ballstriking.

The main benefit is that it lends validation and support to several other Illusion breakthroughs, especially the Arm Swing Illusion. Students will clearly understood how the Wrist Illusion fits in with the Arm Swing Illusion, and why keeping the arms in front of the chest is so important, and why keeping the hands to the right of mid-line (your spine) and with SuperConnection pressure into the armpits is important until after impact. It also explains Tempo and Rhythm Illusion, or the fact that the clubhead, hands, arms and shoulder girdle should be moving at the same RPM speed on the downswing until just after impact.

When you really understand those three Big Illusions - Arms, Wrists, Tempo/Rhythm - it goes a really long way toward elimination of your Hit Impulse and the start of understanding how Effortless Power really works.

[TeeAce]

Thank You Jim... when I wrote that I was sure I will be burned like a witch in the burning pile Now I can sleep this night peacefully when at least someone understood.

I'm afraid to meet You irl some day, because we would talk about 2D-illusions for days

[Jim Waldron]

TeeAce - I won't be able to make it to the show in Orlando, in Hawaii teaching in January. It would be fun to chat with you though sometime about the Illusions. I have identified 20 visual Illusions in the golf swing, and ten more that are feel or tempo based. Good luck with your ongoing research, you are onto something vitally important.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1291450887' post='2822788']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1289789080' post='2790701']
... Hogan's advice to feel some leverage in the other three digits, which also connect to what he called the "underneath" muscles and tendons of the arms, which connect to tricep muscle. Hogan wanted to never activate the biceps, use the tricep to push the arms away from the torso on "full stretch" - as Percy Boomer called it, one of Hogan's primary influences.
[/quote]

I dont know what to say...of topic I know, but you just helped me truly understand the feel of release in your post. Your words are worth at least 10 strokes of OB and unplayable lies. Thanks.
[/quote]

Your welcome and glad to hear that you find that concept useful and effective. It's always amazing to see how sometimes just one new idea can be the key that unlocks the door to better golf.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1291581113' post='2824803']
TeeAce - I won't be able to make it to the show in Orlando, in Hawaii teaching in January. It would be fun to chat with you though sometime about the Illusions. I have identified 20 visual Illusions in the golf swing, and ten more that are feel or tempo based. Good luck with your ongoing research, you are onto something vitally important.
[/quote]

I start to have two good reasons for trip to Hawaii. I-m afraid can't get it done this winter. Will send You PM about few things tomorrow.

[michaelgb888]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1291485520' post='2823180']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1291449490' post='2822774']
So so true. Foe example ulnar deviation is 90% of wrist action, and in that way of move there is about no force toward the target.

[/quote]

Hello TeeAce,

if ulnar deviation is 90 % of wrist action then please explain me how Mr. Hogan returned at impact to the shaftplane...
Modern day players use a lot of ulnar deviation, but Mr. Hogan?

[attachment=693690:BenHoganDSLP1.jpg][attachment=693691:BenHoganDSLP6.jpg]
[attachment=693692:TA3DSLP1.jpg][attachment=693694:TA3DSLP6.jpg]

In the 1950´s most players released like Mr. Hogan on the shaftplane - how they did it - I don´t know but with ulnar deviation they would need
more upright modern day equipment or they would hit toe down divots, which they not did.

Maybe I misinterpret ulnar deviation, but I would be thankful if you can explain how this can work together ( returning on shaftplane + ulnar deviation).

Chris
[/quote]




That's because Hogan maximized the uncocking (ulnar deviation) at address. That way, even if you uncock your left hand/wrist with your right hand as much as possible, at impact Hogan will just return to that maximum uncocking established at address, toe down divots will not happen even if you add 10 other right hands to help you uncock it. That max uncocking at address is in 5Lessons. That's basic bud.

[michaelgb888]

So when you thump with the 3 right last fingers in down and out manner, since such fingers are below the shaft or at least at the right side of shaft, the last 3 fingers will just "cling" to the grip which makes the right palm press down to the left thumb. So in effect, its the lower/bottom part of the palm that near the base of the right thumb that actually thumps the ground and causes the max uncocking/UD. Well, my question is, how would you do that with a rotation based swing? No can do right? I think at top, you just pull the left arm with left shoulder more in a linear/lateral motion (more of a vertical or diagonal dimension to be exact), at the same time letting the angle in wrists remain or increase by doing or letting a pitch elbow and "cling" with the 3 last fingers of right hand, and then thump/uncock the left wrist with 3 right hands. If you do it rotationally from the top of bs, you'll never have enough lag and pitch ellbow and hence wrists angle increase to allow for the 3 right hands thumping. Of course there will actually a resulting rotation, but the feel at the top should be more lateral or vertically dimensioned move instead of rotational/horizontal if the 3 right hand move is to be done. Maybe this is why Hogan's right foot/heel moves more targetwards instead of towards targetline? Jim is this consistent with your ideas/teachings? Teeace?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1291647928' post='2826153']
So when you thump with the 3 right last fingers in down and out manner, since such fingers are below the shaft or at least at the right side of shaft, the last 3 fingers will just "cling" to the grip which makes the right palm press down to the left thumb. So in effect, its the lower/bottom part of the palm that near the base of the right thumb that actually thumps the ground and causes the max uncocking/UD. Well, my question is, how would you do that with a rotation based swing? No can do right? I think at top, you just pull the left arm with left shoulder more in a linear/lateral motion (more of a vertical or diagonal dimension to be exact), at the same time letting the angle in wrists remain or increase by doing or letting a pitch elbow and "cling" with the 3 last fingers of right hand, and then thump/uncock the left wrist with 3 right hands. If you do it rotationally from the top of bs, you'll never have enough lag and pitch ellbow and hence wrists angle increase to allow for the 3 right hands thumping. Of course there will actually a resulting rotation, but the feel at the top should be more lateral or vertically dimensioned move instead of rotational/horizontal if the 3 right hand move is to be done. Maybe this is why Hogan's right foot/heel moves more targetwards instead of towards targetline? Jim is this consistent with your ideas/teachings? Teeace?
[/quote]

I didn't really follow what was Your meaning because the case is really really complicated to explain.

I put one graph here which indicates hands and club head distance from the target line during the swing.
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/uploads/monthly_12_2010/post-61680-0-83796200-1291651269_thumb.jpg

The red line indicates hands and blue line is club head. In Our real UI it's easier to see because You can see also numbers, but even with the graph You can see that the hands are moving away from the target line even when shoulders start to rotate. It's mainly made by dragging the back elbow behind the back like we see Rory's doing and many other good players. Same time (not shown on this graph) right shoulder is dropping and those moves are giving time to reach high speed of rotation before club arrives to the ball and also open position at impact. It should feel You are hours too late with hands and CH.

When You get that position You can fire as hard as You can with Your right shoulder and upper arm. Some way to say it is that You fire to the target with Your hands so, that You try to push the grip forward to keep face deloftet and shaft leaned forward. In this case Your hands will travel just a small period after impact parallel to the target line end then come quickly inside because shoulders are dragging them in.

So the rotation is the basic and gives the energy to the hands. But hands should never follow the rotation 1=1. Rather they cut inside of the circle to be able to fire when the time is right. The muscles we use there, the direction of the move and timing is totally different that what has been told in hundreds of books.

I hope I answered at least part of Your question

[Jim Waldron]

Micahel - I agree with Tee Ace, I am not understanding your idea, and it is very tough to talk about this since words cannot come close to matching the reality. Visual is better but even there the Illusions fool us. No, you don't pull or push with either arms, the arms are the sides of the Triangle and they move - in the forward swing - only dependently because of the base of the Triangle, the shoulder girdle, is rotating. Wrists un-cocking down has nothing about it in conflict with a "rotational-based" golf swing. And are not ALL effective golf swings rotational-based?

A simple analogy: chopping wood with an axe is a perpendicular to the ground motion with both arms and with the wrists uncocking also perpendicular to the ground.

Now - do the Xcross Pivot drill, arms on your chest, perform a proper Pivot or coiling motion and uncoiling motion on a consistent forward Spine Angle.

Now imagine doing both of those two patterns SIMULTANEOUSLY, ie arms and wrists moving independently in the up and down dimension (vertical dimension), in front of your chest, while your chest/torso is pivoting. It's not 100% accurate depiction of what really happens, but it's pretty close.

That is a great Thought Experiment that will help any golfer to start to dispell some of the Illusions. And if you literally find it very difficult or even impossible to simply imagine yourself doing those two seemingly opposite movement patterns simultaneously, it only proves my point about how hard it is to actually do it in physical reality.

Not hard to learn it - through practice - hard to [i]begin[/i] training your body to do it if your mind simply will not accept that it is a. correct and b. possible to do it.

[SwingNV]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1291658510' post='2826435']
Micahel - I agree with Tee Ace, I am not understanding your idea, and it is very tough to talk about this since words cannot come close to matching the reality. Visual is better but even there the Illusions fool us. No, you don't pull or push with either arms, the arms are the sides of the Triangle and they move - in the forward swing - only dependently because of the base of the Triangle, the shoulder girdle, is rotating. Wrists un-cocking down has nothing about it in conflict with a "rotational-based" golf swing. And are not ALL effective golf swings rotational-based?

A simple analogy: chopping wood with an axe is a perpendicular to the ground motion with both arms and with the wrists uncocking also perpendicular to the ground.

Now - do the Xcross Pivot drill, arms on your chest, perform a proper Pivot or coiling motion and uncoiling motion on a consistent forward Spine Angle.

Now imagine doing both of those two patterns SIMULTANEOUSLY, ie arms and wrists moving independently in the up and down dimension (vertical dimension), in front of your chest, while your chest/torso is pivoting. It's not 100% accurate depiction of what really happens, but it's pretty close.

That is a great Thought Experiment that will help any golfer to start to dispell some of the Illusions. And if you literally find it very difficult or even impossible to simply imagine yourself doing those two seemingly opposite movement patterns simultaneously, it only proves my point about how hard it is to actually do it in physical reality.

Not hard to learn it - through practice - hard to [i]begin[/i] training your body to do it if your mind simply will not accept that it is a. correct and b. possible to do it.
[/quote]


While I agree with this concept of arm elevation/ pivot happening simultaneously, I do not like the chopping wood analogy. When you tell someone to chop wood, they will invariably lift with the biceps. I think this is incorrect, especially as it applies to Hogan.

I think is it pretty well documented that Hogan said to remove the right bicep out of the swing. So this would mean he felt no lifting in the swing, yet I believe his arms elevated quite a bit. I think he achieved his arm elevation by pushing out with the lat muscles in the back. Thus, I prefer using the shoveling analogy to achieve the elevation of the arms.

Imagine you are holding a shovel just as you would a golf club. The point of the shovel is already in the ground tho, so you can't use a swing arc to displace the dirt. Instead you use the large lat muscles in your back to create energy. The more you push, the more the arms elevate. Consequently, the more the arms elevate, the closer the elbows come to touching. I think this is why Hogan emphasized keeping to elbows as close together as possible throughout the entire swing.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1291664336' post='2826619']
[

While I agree with this concept of arm elevation/ pivot happening simultaneously, I do not like the chopping wood analogy. When you tell someone to chop wood, they will invariably lift with the biceps. I think this is incorrect, especially as it applies to Hogan.


[/quote]

I think Jim was just telling that there is no lateral /side move of hands and arms. Actually there is, but not to that direction that many believe. How that happens is totally different story

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1291664336' post='2826619']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1291658510' post='2826435']
Micahel - I agree with Tee Ace, I am not understanding your idea, and it is very tough to talk about this since words cannot come close to matching the reality. Visual is better but even there the Illusions fool us. No, you don't pull or push with either arms, the arms are the sides of the Triangle and they move - in the forward swing - only dependently because of the base of the Triangle, the shoulder girdle, is rotating. Wrists un-cocking down has nothing about it in conflict with a "rotational-based" golf swing. And are not ALL effective golf swings rotational-based?

A simple analogy: chopping wood with an axe is a perpendicular to the ground motion with both arms and with the wrists uncocking also perpendicular to the ground.

Now - do the Xcross Pivot drill, arms on your chest, perform a proper Pivot or coiling motion and uncoiling motion on a consistent forward Spine Angle.

Now imagine doing both of those two patterns SIMULTANEOUSLY, ie arms and wrists moving independently in the up and down dimension (vertical dimension), in front of your chest, while your chest/torso is pivoting. It's not 100% accurate depiction of what really happens, but it's pretty close.

That is a great Thought Experiment that will help any golfer to start to dispell some of the Illusions. And if you literally find it very difficult or even impossible to simply imagine yourself doing those two seemingly opposite movement patterns simultaneously, it only proves my point about how hard it is to actually do it in physical reality.

Not hard to learn it - through practice - hard to [i]begin[/i] training your body to do it if your mind simply will not accept that it is a. correct and b. possible to do it.
[/quote]


While I agree with this concept of arm elevation/ pivot happening simultaneously, I do not like the chopping wood analogy. When you tell someone to chop wood, they will invariably lift with the biceps. I think this is incorrect, especially as it applies to Hogan.

I think is it pretty well documented that Hogan said to remove the right bicep out of the swing. So this would mean he felt no lifting in the swing, yet I believe his arms elevated quite a bit. I think he achieved his arm elevation by pushing out with the lat muscles in the back. Thus, I prefer using the shoveling analogy to achieve the elevation of the arms.

Imagine you are holding a shovel just as you would a golf club. The point of the shovel is already in the ground tho, so you can't use a swing arc to displace the dirt. Instead you use the large lat muscles in your back to create energy. The more you push, the more the arms elevate. Consequently, the more the arms elevate, the closer the elbows come to touching. I think this is why Hogan emphasized keeping to elbows as close together as possible throughout the entire swing.
[/quote]

Please read my post again. It was not meant to be precise, concrete "what to do" mechanical instruction. I never told anyone to chop wood by bending the elbows via bicep flexion, ie never gave a specific concrete direction as to "what to do" mechanically with any body part. I did so by design. This is why I am sometimes quite reluctant to post on golf swing forums, since when I am positing a general "in the ballpark" kind of basic conceptual understanding, someone invariably will ignore my very clearly stated qualifler that I am not advocating specific "what to do mechanically" instructions but rather trying to create a basic conceptual understanding to get the reader pointed in the right direction. One reason in this example I called it a Thought Experiment.

One can always pick apart ANY general swing concept in a million different ways because there are indeed a million different wrong way to do it, including as you correctly stated, using bicep flexion.

Yes - of course, the arms scoop downwards and then outwards, both from the shoulder girdle/lat area and from the elbow joint via tricep flexion, which does indeed bring the elbows closer together. At our golf schools we describe it as a "scooping" or "shovelling" motion, but that comes later in the learning sequence. Basic Level learning we use the woodchopping concept.. And as Tee Ace correclty pointed out, the arm motion is not literally perpendicular but V shaped, but not "sideways and around the body" as most golfers believe.

I wasn't going for the more detailed explanation - and one which is potentially very confusing to some readers - on purpose. You need to start somewhere, usually the beginning is a good place! I have taught this concept to several thousand golfers, most of average ability, the past 15 years in our golf schools and so I have a pretty good idea how really difficult this concept can be, even when working with golfers for three consecutive eight hour days, live in the real 3D world.

[SwingNV]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1291671068' post='2826827']
Please read my post again. It was not meant to be precise, concrete "what to do" mechanical instruction. I never told anyone to chop wood by bending the elbows via bicep flexion, ie never gave a specific concrete direction as to "what to do" mechanically with any body part. I did so by design. This is why I am sometimes quite reluctant to post on golf swing forums, since when I am positing a general "in the ballpark" kind of basic conceptual understanding, someone invariably will ignore my very clearly stated qualifler that I am not advocating specific "what to do mechanically" instructions but rather trying to create a basic conceptual understanding to get the reader pointed in the right direction. One reason in this example I called it a Thought Experiment.

One can always pick apart ANY general swing concept in a million different ways because there are indeed a million different wrong way to do it, including as you correctly stated, using bicep flexion.

Yes - of course, the arms scoop downwards and then outwards, both from the shoulder girdle/lat area and from the elbow joint via tricep flexion, which does indeed bring the elbows closer together. At our golf schools we describe it as a "scooping" or "shovelling" motion, but that comes later in the learning sequence. Basic Level learning we use the woodchopping concept.. And as Tee Ace correclty pointed out, the arm motion is not literally perpendicular but V shaped, but not "sideways and around the body" as most golfers believe.

I wasn't going for the more detailed explanation - and one which is potentially very confusing to some readers - on purpose. You need to start somewhere, usually the beginning is a good place! I have taught this concept to several thousand golfers, most of average ability, the past 15 years in our golf schools and so I have a pretty good idea how really difficult this concept can be, even when working with golfers for three consecutive eight hour days, live in the real 3D world.
[/quote]

Yes, I indeed misinterpreted your post. In all honesty, I sometimes skim these threads to find posts written by certain people. You are one of these individuals on my list because I always find your posts well thought out and extremely helpful. I am not a professional, just an amatuer that enjoys swing R & D- especially Hogan.

My apologies, as I did not mean to be critical. I now realize that you were answering in a manner which you believed would be most beneficial to the questioner. Now, I'm excited to know that you agree with my assesment, which means I'm on the right track!

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1291664336' post='2826619']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1291658510' post='2826435']
Micahel - I agree with Tee Ace, I am not understanding your idea, and it is very tough to talk about this since words cannot come close to matching the reality. Visual is better but even there the Illusions fool us. No, you don't pull or push with either arms, the arms are the sides of the Triangle and they move - in the forward swing - only dependently because of the base of the Triangle, the shoulder girdle, is rotating. Wrists un-cocking down has nothing about it in conflict with a "rotational-based" golf swing. And are not ALL effective golf swings rotational-based?

A simple analogy: chopping wood with an axe is a perpendicular to the ground motion with both arms and with the wrists uncocking also perpendicular to the ground.

Now - do the Xcross Pivot drill, arms on your chest, perform a proper Pivot or coiling motion and uncoiling motion on a consistent forward Spine Angle.

Now imagine doing both of those two patterns SIMULTANEOUSLY, ie arms and wrists moving independently in the up and down dimension (vertical dimension), in front of your chest, while your chest/torso is pivoting. It's not 100% accurate depiction of what really happens, but it's pretty close.

That is a great Thought Experiment that will help any golfer to start to dispell some of the Illusions. And if you literally find it very difficult or even impossible to simply imagine yourself doing those two seemingly opposite movement patterns simultaneously, it only proves my point about how hard it is to actually do it in physical reality.

Not hard to learn it - through practice - hard to [i]begin[/i] training your body to do it if your mind simply will not accept that it is a. correct and b. possible to do it.
[/quote]


While I agree with this concept of arm elevation/ pivot happening simultaneously, I do not like the chopping wood analogy. When you tell someone to chop wood, they will invariably lift with the biceps. I think this is incorrect, especially as it applies to Hogan.

I think is it pretty well documented that [b]Hogan said to remove the right bicep out of the swing[/b]. So this would mean he felt no lifting in the swing, yet I believe his arms elevated quite a bit. I think he achieved his arm elevation by pushing out with the lat muscles in the back. Thus, I prefer using the shoveling analogy to achieve the elevation of the arms.

Imagine you are holding a shovel just as you would a golf club. The point of the shovel is already in the ground tho, so you can't use a swing arc to displace the dirt. Instead you use the large lat muscles in your back to create energy. The more you push, the more the arms elevate. Consequently, the more the arms elevate, the closer the elbows come to touching. I think this is why Hogan emphasized keeping to elbows as close together as possible throughout the entire swing.
[/quote]

So if there are truly no bicepts in the swing then the backswing will look something like this? Im just trying to clarify as I always struggle with too much tension in the swing. Seems use of too many muscle groups is the culprit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXPVnWJ0gDs

[michaelgb888]

Thanks for the explanations Teeace and Jim. I'm concerned about the transition/ds.

"...It's mainly made by dragging the back elbow behind the back like we see Rory's doing and many other good players."

Teeace you mean you pull at top of bs/transition only, or pull right from address ala Jim Hardy? HOW do you suggest to do that exactly?

"...Rather they cut inside of the circle to be able to fire when the time is right. The muscles we use there, the direction of the move and timing is totally different that what has been told in hundreds of books."

Again, HOW do you do this? Can you give more details?

To do the thumping, I feel I have to consciously do a lateral move with the hips in order to, as you said Teeace, "cut inside the circle" with a pitch elbow and right wrist still or increasing bend. This is similar to what Hogan describes as "turn the hips first" in shell match with snead. Look at his arms/elbow and right shoulder when he "turns" that hips. I don't think he is rotating immediately, he's turning the hips only, which results to a lateral move of lower body, bringing the left hip open and over the left foot, BUT the shoulders are not rotating. How do you do that with hips while you do that with the shoulders? If you pull back with right elbow Teeace, it will look different from Hogan's. Its clear his right elbow is pointing to ground. Maybe its the left arm/hand, it will continue pushing/rotating up to the time when you do the "turn" or lateral with left hips?

After that, then that's the time I rotate my shoulders as hard as I can and thump the ground with the 3 right hands.

Comments?

[michaelgb888]

Teeace,

Further to my question above and be more specific, in cutting the inside of circle, what muscles? What direction? And what/where/when timing? What's different in other books?

Best.

[michaelgb888]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1291658510' post='2826435']
Micahel - I agree with Tee Ace, I am not understanding your idea, and it is very tough to talk about this since words cannot come close to matching the reality. Visual is better but even there the Illusions fool us. No, you don't pull or push with either arms, the arms are the sides of the Triangle and they move - in the forward swing - only dependently because of the base of the Triangle, the shoulder girdle, is rotating. Wrists un-cocking down has nothing about it in conflict with a "rotational-based" golf swing. And are not ALL effective golf swings rotational-based?

A simple analogy: chopping wood with an axe is a perpendicular to the ground motion with both arms and with the wrists uncocking also perpendicular to the ground.

Now - do the Xcross Pivot drill, arms on your chest, perform a proper Pivot or coiling motion and uncoiling motion on a consistent forward Spine Angle.

Now imagine doing both of those two patterns SIMULTANEOUSLY, ie arms and wrists moving independently in the up and down dimension (vertical dimension), in front of your chest, while your chest/torso is pivoting. It's not 100% accurate depiction of what really happens, but it's pretty close.

That is a great Thought Experiment that will help any golfer to start to dispell some of the Illusions. And if you literally find it very difficult or even impossible to simply imagine yourself doing those two seemingly opposite movement patterns simultaneously, it only proves my point about how hard it is to actually do it in physical reality.

Not hard to learn it - through practice - hard to [i]begin[/i] training your body to do it if your mind simply will not accept that it is a. correct and b. possible to do it.
[/quote]



Jim,

Very enlightening. This came up "up the flagpole" in the past for me! But you actually confirming it with your experience as a teacher is enlightening. Yup, light bulb moment.

Can you supplement this with how to get there in the first place? I mean, the takeaway and bs? HOW would you suggest the takeaway and bs in order to arrive perfectly in a position to do the ds moves you said.

You mentioned earlier (in another topic/thread) that the arms just moves sideways in the bs around 6inches only, consistent with the keeping arms in front of chest principle. But HOW? Do you push/rotate with left arm/hand? How about right hand/arm/elbow? What should they do? Resisting? Again, HOW? Not only the results, but what will be the "conscious" or active moves, or micro-moves? Details?

Best.

[michaelgb888]

Also Jim, I feel like my arms are much faster than my torso turn (maybe because I'm on heavy side. Ok ok, not just maybe! ) Anyway, until I match their speed up, any suggestions on how to prevent arms from overtaking the torso turn?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1291689219' post='2827363']
Teeace,

Further to my question above and be more specific, in cutting the inside of circle, what muscles? What direction? And what/where/when timing? What's different in other books?

Best.
[/quote]

You make lot of good questions...

Direction is interesting because there is no way to define direction. Compared to body it's different than for example to target line and it's can be changing all the time.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Fbg4FDJBw"]Here[/url] is great video from Kelvin meant to focus on hips, but has also great opportunity to watch what happens to the right shoulder and elbow. The back muscles drag the elbow toward the target at transition so it means the direction is "behind Your back" When shoulders are turning the same muscular action is still kept on and thats the main move to keep arm triangle open.

I have read hundreds of books which are telling to pull down and to the ball with the left arm, when as my opinion, player should do just the opposite and try to avoid all moves for that direction. Keeping the right elbow close to the body by dragging it in and letting left arm to be kept as much across the chest as possible. As my opinion that is the only way to get open shoulders at impact and Hogan-like impact position.

[michaelgb888]

"...The back muscles drag the elbow toward the target at transition so it means the direction is "behind Your back" When shoulders are turning the same muscular action is still kept on and thats the main move to keep arm triangle open."

Tee, what do you mean "behind your back"? At top, when your back is facing the target, you sort of pull back your left shoulder with your left lats/back muscles towards your behind? Or do you pull back your right shoulder with right back muscles during transition? This is the pull the rear elbow move you mentioned earlier? Can you clarify?

While doing that, you continue pushing with your left arm keeping it attached to the chest, and when you enter impact zone, you thump with 3 last right fingers?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1291721472' post='2827764']
"...The back muscles drag the elbow toward the target at transition so it means the direction is "behind Your back" When shoulders are turning the same muscular action is still kept on and thats the main move to keep arm triangle open."

Tee, what do you mean "behind your back"? At top, when your back is facing the target, you sort of pull back your left shoulder with your left lats/back muscles towards your behind? Or do you pull back your right shoulder with right back muscles during transition? This is the pull the rear elbow move you mentioned earlier? Can you clarify?

While doing that, you continue pushing with your left arm keeping it attached to the chest, and when you enter impact zone, you thump with 3 last right fingers?
[/quote]

Behind the back is difficult term and can be totally misunderstood, so we have to be careful with that. One can drag it back wrong way and that will destroy whole action. The answer is in the right forearm and where it's pointing. The action should be like if You are standing to face on camera keeping Your arms straight and hands in the center of Your body line. Then simply pull right elbow toward Your hip letting hands move to the right. That move will bring left arm against the chest and keep it there. It's about sam action in transition, but when Your back has turned to face the target, elbow also moves toward the target. Remember to keep the line of the right elbow straight so it can only drop down but never move sideways. That move, when done correctly, also flattens the shaft plane and turns Your right palm facing up.

About left side muscles I think there shouldn't be any shortening action on that side, only extension. It's even more complicated and I don't really actually know what exactly happens and what muscles are transforming the energy of hips rotation to the shoulders. Maybe the inner muscles near the spine are shortening (is there maybe better word for that?) but what I feel and my students, they only feel extension on the left side and shortening of the right side.

[jak_bot]

To get this discussion back on topic: I highly recommend getting this book; hands down it is one of the best Hogan books I have ever read.

[morganmonroe]

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1292024854' post='2834442']
To get this discussion back on topic: I highly recommend getting this book; hands down it is one of the best Hogan books I have ever read.
[/quote]


Thanks for that on both levels. I'll pick it up.

[Body_Visions]

A little off topic here, but I just finished the book. I started it and didn't put it down until it was finished. Great book!

[PingG10guy]

the tangent i contributed to revolutionized my ballstriking, but...

To the OP. yes the book is an excellent read and a vivid display of Mr. Hogan and his practice habits. Im only a few chapters in and Im greatly impressed. Great diction and explanations. Im a bargain guy. Nookbook from barnes and noble is a little cheaper, but this is well worth the actual copy. If I can find it in stores Im buying it

[michaelgb888]

"...That move, when done correctly, also flattens the shaft plane and turns Your right palm facing up..."

Tee, do you something specific with the right hand? Do you consciously try to keep it bent/hinged? And while doing that, palm automatically face the sky by rotating a bit to right?
I mean, bending is conscious, but facing sky and rightwards rotation is result not actively done?

[michaelgb888]

Ping, I find the last 3 fingers thumping the ground a revelation. It confirms the 3right hands being actively done as hogan said in 5Lessons.

Hope other hogan experts would add to what teeace and jim has generously posted/explained.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1292392379' post='2841642']
"...That move, when done correctly, also flattens the shaft plane and turns Your right palm facing up..."

Tee, do you something specific with the right hand? Do you consciously try to keep it bent/hinged? And while doing that, palm automatically face the sky by rotating a bit to right?
I mean, bending is conscious, but facing sky and rightwards rotation is result not actively done?
[/quote]

I have to say, I don't know. For me it has been conscious at beginning, now I feel it happens, but I can't do it well enough myself. So maybe it should be even more conscious. I can say that my students has learned to do that as an active move and later they do it automatically. Some players has done it since the beginning, and many of them don't even know they are doing it.

We are not able to go inside of other players body or mind, so it's impossible to say how others feel that happening.

[michaelgb888]

Well, I think the palm facing up and turning right will be automatic if you actively hinge to the maximum the right wrist at around hip height. Actually, both wrists must be locked anytime before reaching the top. If they are, when you transition, the right palm will automatically turn and face up.