New Hogan Book by Tschetter

[michaelgb888]

Just read this and found that Hogan taught the author to hit hard with the right hand, which is consistent with the 3 right hands wish per 5L. And this should be done only with the middle, ring and little fingers of the right hand, which is consistent also with the right thumb and index finger off the shaft per 5L. Also, Hogan agrees that takeaway should be low and to the inside, which is consistent also with diagrams on p. 80 of 5L.

 

What's your takes on these? Author is very credible to me.

[wombat50]

Been awhile since I read a book where it stated she had many personal conversations with Hogan and played some rounds with him.
I think it was during her college career. Yes she is very credible.

[KevCarter]

Very credible. I will be purchasing this book!

Kevin

[jak_bot]

Right around the time the book came out (about a month ago), TGC did a segment with the author on Golf Central. Seemed very credible.

[golfnot]

Very enjoyable read ............. a must for all Hogan enthusiasts.

per the book, Hogan repeatedly told her to "Thump" the ground with her right hand.........

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1289755564' post='2789855']
Right around the time the book came out (about a month ago), TGC did a segment with the author on Golf Central. Seemed very credible.
[/quote]

[Sean2]

Doesn't the lag breakdown if you hit with the right hand? I don't understand how you hit with the right hand. Can someone please explain this?

Thanks!

[michaelgb888]

In the book it was also said that Mr. Hogan emphasized to turn the hips first, not the right hand first, which was also said in 5L. So I guess per 5L, first turn the hips, this let's the hands drop down on its own, and then apply the right middle, ring and little fingers with everything you've got. Seems like Hogan said it all in 5L, and that "3 right hands" is really a wish comments. Maybe with the turn the hips first and by not using the right thumb and index finger, you won't lose the lag? If you do, maybe you're grip is wrong? Hope Ms. Tschetter explained this in detail. Maybe she left out the details as they're hard to put into words. I believe she and husband has a teaching/golf facility as said in the book, so maybe going to her would be something. Please post update when someone does that.. (What's emoticon for begging? )

[jak_bot]

Here is TGC segment:

[url="http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.aspx?select2=14622&page=26000"]http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.aspx?select2=14622&page=26000[/url]

[Jim Waldron]

We also teach students in our golf schools to "thump the ground" with the right wrist/forearm. You don't lose any lag if you do the "thumping" only in the down and out dimensions - never the horizontal or toward the ball and target "sideways" dimension. Down and out is always in front of your chest and never laterally across your chest or from right to left for a righty golfer. This wrist action must be blended with the proper Pivot Thrust action, of course.
Slower Pivot Thrusts demand a slower wrists un-cocking speed and a fast Pivot Thrust speed like Hogan's require a fast un-cocking speed.

We are trying to synchronize the mainly horizontal dimension of the Pivot Thrust (although the other two dimensions certainly play a role) with the downwards toward the ground and out towards the target line un-cocking action of the wrists.

I believe Hogan probably realized that the wrist throwaway flaw usually starts with an increase in grip pressure in the right thumb and index finger, which then "grab" the handle of the shaft and then throw the clubhead away. A common form of the Hit Impulse. Which is why Kris is relating Hogan's advice to feel some leverage in the other three digits, which also connect to what he called the "underneath" muscles and tendons of the arms, which connect to tricep muscle. Hogan wanted to never activate the biceps, use the tricep to push the arms away from the torso on "full stretch" - as Percy Boomer called it, one of Hogan's primary influences.

[michaelgb888]

Jim,

Does down and out towards the target line means sort of like pushing the club with the right hand/last3fingers away from the body? Can you elaborate please? Isn't that inconsistent with the basketball pass analogy in 5L, whch to me is sort of in horizontal dimension?

Best.

[hbgpagolfpro]

I wrote a review of the book...I thought it was excellent and quite revealing. You can find my review

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1290155632' post='2797955']
Jim,

Does down and out towards the target line means sort of like pushing the club with the right hand/last3fingers away from the body? Can you elaborate please? Isn't that inconsistent with the basketball pass analogy in 5L, whch to me is sort of in horizontal dimension?

Best.
[/quote]

I think his basketball pass analogy was more of a feel thing. Yes, the wrists release their angles in primarily the down and out dimensions while simultaneously the Pivot Thrust is moving the arms and hands in the horizontal dimension. Human brains have a tough time visualizing simultaneous body part motion in opposite dimensions, which is why you are likely having trouble understanding this point. Toward the target line is a reference point for away from your chest, also called the width dimension, and is only applicable as a reference during impact segment of the swing. You can feel the down and out push away in either or both hands, or even certain parts of either or both hands, Hogan it seems felt it more in his right hand.

[502 to Right]

I'm looking forward to reading this. I really enjoyed Jody Vasquez's book as well. I enjoy the slice of life accounts of Mr. Hogan's life.

[moefan]

This book is also interesting for what it does not contain. Many of the "secrets" from other books are never mentioned.

moefan

[hoganfan924]

Really enjoyed the GC interview with Chris. The best part was the confirmation about what some of us have written about and previously discussed, which is the influence of the baseball swing and Ted Williams on Hogan. Just one more piece of the puzzle.

[downtoscratch]

[size="4"][font="Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet,Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"][size="3"]You will learn much about the man few were allowed to get close to
and about the special person who drew him out. Good stuff.
As for swing things....... only a few. [b]Left side of the left thumb[/b]
on the grip not the fat center of the thumb. This is something Chris
says she was never able to achieve. Elbows close together (a recurring
theme). The one that will interest Hogan followers.. thump the ground!
And of course 'hit it hard'!!! Nothing about pulling with the left.... more
3 right hands............ dts

Here's an excerpt from another forum where a player experimented with
the 'left thumb' grip........
"[/size][/size][/font][size="4"][size="3"] I generated much more spin on my pitches and chips than I normally do. The consistency of the shot seemed better as well. I haven't had a chance to apply the same concept to my full shot yet, but I will say I felt I was able to "hit" more with my right hand instead of "pulling" with my left."[/size][/size]

[JD3]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1289789080' post='2790701']
We also teach students in our golf schools to "thump the ground" with the right wrist/forearm. You don't lose any lag if you do the "thumping" only in the down and out dimensions - never the horizontal or toward the ball and target "sideways" dimension. Down and out is always in front of your chest and never laterally across your chest or from right to left for a righty golfer. This wrist action must be blended with the proper Pivot Thrust action, of course.
Slower Pivot Thrusts demand a slower wrists un-cocking speed and a fast Pivot Thrust speed like Hogan's require a fast un-cocking speed.

We are trying to synchronize the mainly horizontal dimension of the Pivot Thrust (although the other two dimensions certainly play a role) with the downwards toward the ground and out towards the target line un-cocking action of the wrists.

I believe Hogan probably realized that the wrist throwaway flaw usually starts with an increase in grip pressure in the right thumb and index finger, which then "grab" the handle of the shaft and then throw the clubhead away. A common form of the Hit Impulse. Which is why Kris is relating Hogan's advice to feel some leverage in the other three digits, which also connect to what he called the "underneath" muscles and tendons of the arms, which connect to tricep muscle. Hogan wanted to never activate the biceps, use the tricep to push the arms away from the torso on "full stretch" - as Percy Boomer called it, one of Hogan's primary influences.
[/quote]
Well said and summarized re: thrusting in down and out dimensions .... Never the horizontal or sideways. Overdoing it by including the sideways is what gets me into trouble sometimes.

[ppjn348]

To feel the thumping of the ground you have to hold your ground. View Shawn Clement's "Hogan's Power Move" and as long as your shift properly and hold your ground with your right side, you can't come over the top and you can go as hard as you can with your arms. You'll feel so much more slap but it will all be centrifugal force.

[moehogan]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1290220045' post='2799099']
[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1290155632' post='2797955']
Jim,

Does down and out towards the target line means sort of like pushing the club with the right hand/last3fingers away from the body? Can you elaborate please? Isn't that inconsistent with the basketball pass analogy in 5L, whch to me is sort of in horizontal dimension?

Best.
[/quote]

I think his basketball pass analogy was more of a feel thing. Yes, the wrists release their angles in primarily the down and out dimensions while simultaneously the Pivot Thrust is moving the arms and hands in the horizontal dimension. Human brains have a tough time visualizing simultaneous body part motion in opposite dimensions, which is why you are likely having trouble understanding this point. Toward the target line is a reference point for away from your chest, also called the width dimension, and is only applicable as a reference during impact segment of the swing. You can feel the down and out push away in either or both hands, or even certain parts of either or both hands, Hogan it seems felt it more in his right hand.
[/quote]

Jim,

Seems like pp#1 would be able to apply the most DOWN and OUT with the combination of pitch elbow and a weak right hand grip. Interestingly, in the Coleman vid, Mr. Hogan talks about pp#3 and a "forward" (not down) pressure/movement. Could this be the result of the delay in his sensory perception ... what he though he was feeling at impact was actually post low point, when the club was starting to move up? Perhaps, the effects of radial acceleration past impact?

Interested in your thoughts!

MH

[502 to Right]

Just finished it. Excellent book.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1291246588' post='2818609']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1290220045' post='2799099']
[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1290155632' post='2797955']
Jim,

Does down and out towards the target line means sort of like pushing the club with the right hand/last3fingers away from the body? Can you elaborate please? Isn't that inconsistent with the basketball pass analogy in 5L, whch to me is sort of in horizontal dimension?

Best.
[/quote]

I think his basketball pass analogy was more of a feel thing. Yes, the wrists release their angles in primarily the down and out dimensions while simultaneously the Pivot Thrust is moving the arms and hands in the horizontal dimension. Human brains have a tough time visualizing simultaneous body part motion in opposite dimensions, which is why you are likely having trouble understanding this point. Toward the target line is a reference point for away from your chest, also called the width dimension, and is only applicable as a reference during impact segment of the swing. You can feel the down and out push away in either or both hands, or even certain parts of either or both hands, Hogan it seems felt it more in his right hand.
[/quote]

Jim,

Seems like pp#1 would be able to apply the most DOWN and OUT with the combination of pitch elbow and a weak right hand grip. Interestingly, in the Coleman vid, Mr. Hogan talks about pp#3 and a "forward" (not down) pressure/movement. Could this be the result of the delay in his sensory perception ... what he though he was feeling at impact was actually post low point, when the club was starting to move up? Perhaps, the effects of radial acceleration past impact?

Interested in your thoughts!

MH
[/quote]


I think the most down and out pressure is applied and can be felt if you are focusing your mind there in feel channel in the left wrist un-cocking. Can also be in right arm angle opening up although most average golfers already use that secondary power source way too early in the downswing, takes good timing to use it and the amount of power you get is really not very much.

Hogan felt the pressure from right index finger pad onto the right side of the shaft pressuring to the left because of the force of his Pivot, not his wrists. Pivot force is mostly in the sideways or horizontal dimension (although some down and out of course).

Try doing this isometric drill: press your driver face against a door jamb, SuperConnect your upper arms to your chest, in the p6 or Halfway down position, and without using your arms independently at all, apply force to the doorjam through your Pivot, kind of a medium-strength constant pressing into the doorjam with the driver face. To do this you need to engage the inside muscles of your Core, and your legs and feet to press into the ground for support. You will really feel the Pivot force at the right index finger pad, both armpits, both feet, and a few other body parts.

Yes, the Neurological Time Delay factor also explains why he might have felt pressure there due to post-impact Pivot Thrust.

[moehogan]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1291339343' post='2820536']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1291246588' post='2818609']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1290220045' post='2799099']
[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1290155632' post='2797955']
Jim,

Does down and out towards the target line means sort of like pushing the club with the right hand/last3fingers away from the body? Can you elaborate please? Isn't that inconsistent with the basketball pass analogy in 5L, whch to me is sort of in horizontal dimension?

Best.
[/quote]

I think his basketball pass analogy was more of a feel thing. Yes, the wrists release their angles in primarily the down and out dimensions while simultaneously the Pivot Thrust is moving the arms and hands in the horizontal dimension. Human brains have a tough time visualizing simultaneous body part motion in opposite dimensions, which is why you are likely having trouble understanding this point. Toward the target line is a reference point for away from your chest, also called the width dimension, and is only applicable as a reference during impact segment of the swing. You can feel the down and out push away in either or both hands, or even certain parts of either or both hands, Hogan it seems felt it more in his right hand.
[/quote]

Jim,

Seems like pp#1 would be able to apply the most DOWN and OUT with the combination of pitch elbow and a weak right hand grip. Interestingly, in the Coleman vid, Mr. Hogan talks about pp#3 and a "forward" (not down) pressure/movement. Could this be the result of the delay in his sensory perception ... what he though he was feeling at impact was actually post low point, when the club was starting to move up? Perhaps, the effects of radial acceleration past impact?

Interested in your thoughts!

MH
[/quote]


I think the most down and out pressure is applied and can be felt if you are focusing your mind there in feel channel in the left wrist un-cocking. Can also be in right arm angle opening up although most average golfers already use that secondary power source way too early in the downswing, takes good timing to use it and the amount of power you get is really not very much.

Hogan felt the pressure from right index finger pad onto the right side of the shaft pressuring to the left because of the force of his Pivot, not his wrists. Pivot force is mostly in the sideways or horizontal dimension (although some down and out of course).

Try doing this isometric drill: press your driver face against a door jamb, SuperConnect your upper arms to your chest, in the p6 or Halfway down position, and without using your arms independently at all, apply force to the doorjam through your Pivot, kind of a medium-strength constant pressing into the doorjam with the driver face. To do this you need to engage the inside muscles of your Core, and your legs and feet to press into the ground for support. You will really feel the Pivot force at the right index finger pad, both armpits, both feet, and a few other body parts.

Yes, the Neurological Time Delay factor also explains why he might have felt pressure there due to post-impact Pivot Thrust.
[/quote]
Thanks, Jim.

Totally agree with you about the horizontal or "forward" role of the pivot. What I am still trying to reconcile is the "down and out" part. You said that this is best felt through the uncocking of the left wrist. Maybe this is best focus for most mere mortals. But why did Mr. Hogan say that he wished he "had three right hands" and tell Ms. Tschetter to "thump the ground" with her right hand? How is one going to feel any significant pressure at pp#3 with PITCH elbow other than at transition, impact and post-impact? Could Mr. Hogan have applied significant force with the right hand through the left thumb (pp#1) to achieve the "down and out"? Maybe he figured out how to take all of the horizontal action out of his hands ... no roll feel instead of full roll. I suppose we will never really know ... but it sure is fun to speculate!

Moe

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1289767555' post='2790117']
Doesn't the lag breakdown if you hit with the right hand? I don't understand how you hit with the right hand. Can someone please explain this?

Thanks!
[/quote]

There is actually two ways to hit with the right hand and this explained way seems familiar for me, even if it can confuse some people.

If You hit hard with the part of the hand which is upper in the shaft, You actually push the grip forward and keep on the leaning of the shaft. if You hit hard with Your index finger part, You put more pressure more to the club head and loose lag.

I talk much more about pressure here included to hitting hard with the right hand.

[moehogan]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1291391306' post='2821388']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1289767555' post='2790117']
Doesn't the lag breakdown if you hit with the right hand? I don't understand how you hit with the right hand. Can someone please explain this?

Thanks!
[/quote]

There is actually two ways to hit with the right hand and this explained way seems familiar for me, even if it can confuse some people.

If [b][size="4"]You hit hard with the part of the hand which is upper in the shaft[/size][/b], You actually push the grip forward and keep on the leaning of the shaft. if You hit hard with Your index finger part, You put more pressure more to the club head and loose lag.

I talk much more about pressure here included to hitting hard with the right hand.



[/quote]
That's what I'm talking about!

[Jim Waldron]

The important thing - as always - is to focus on which muscles are creating the Forces-the causes - and which body parts are feeling the application of the Forces, ie the effects. Without that already established, the discussion quickly breaks down due to folks opinionating based on what they feel is happening, including Hogan.

I think basing one's swing improvement plan on what another player's conscious mind feels - or even worse, thinks about - is happening is a recipe for disaster.

All the hands do mechanically is hold onto the club. What Hogan meant by hands was mostly likely his feeling of releasing the vertical dimension wrist angle or uncocking in the down and out dimension primarily. He may also have felt some right forearm rotation as part of his release and called that "right hands".

The last link in the body's kinetic chain is the wrist angle release and Hogan released it very late into his downswing. That late wrist angle release must be matched to a late Pivot Thrust, and it must be a muscle-activated hit with the wrist muscles to stay in good timing with the Pivot Thrust, or else you would hit the shot super fat and way out to the right.

This is a 3D golf swing we are talking about here but if you study 99% of golf swing forums and even most instruction books, you see an unconscious 2D bias. It ain't either/or, folks. It is BOTH a down and out wrist angle release and a sideways Pivot Thrust release, the Pivot Thrust starting a fraction of a second earlier (stage one) than the wrist release, (stage two). If you focus your feel channel awareness on the Pivot Thrust force as applied to the hands, you can feel it in the right index finger pad pressing against the right side of the handle AND/OR the upper part of the right hand. In either case, if you are Thrusting correctly AND also not throwing the wrist angles away too early - including the vertical wrist angle and the sideways wrist angle ( hinge angle at back of right wrist) - then you won't be able to flip the right wrist and lose your lag.

Problem is - due to linguistic "software" embedded in human brain structure, we can only talk about - and think about - it mostly one or two dimensional terms at any given moment in time - a very incomplete picture of reality.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1291424203' post='2822273']


Problem is - due to linguistic "software" embedded in human brain structure, we can only talk about - and think about - it mostly one or two dimensional terms at any given moment in time - a very incomplete picture of reality.
[/quote]



So so true. Foe example ulnar deviation is 90% of wrist action, and in that way of move there is about no force toward the target.

Actually I have to say that using of right hand has became a mystery for me. Before it was so clear, but when going deeper to that action more complicated it gets.

I FEEL I'm hitting hard with the right hand at impact. I KNOW my right elbow and right wrist stays bended through the impact. I THINK something happens in right shoulder area so that right upper arm is hitting, but I can't define what it is. The explanation could be in the open shoulder line and 2D / 3D problem.

By the way I will be in Orlando show at this booth [url="http://pgamerch11.mapyourshow.com/3_0/exhibitor_details.cfm?exhid=322989&markcamefrom=y"]4DSwing[/url] at the end of January. Could be nice to meet some of You guys there if You happen to be there. Just ask Tapio.
[b]
[/b]

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1289789080' post='2790701']
... Hogan's advice to feel some leverage in the other three digits, which also connect to what he called the "underneath" muscles and tendons of the arms, which connect to tricep muscle. Hogan wanted to never activate the biceps, use the tricep to push the arms away from the torso on "full stretch" - as Percy Boomer called it, one of Hogan's primary influences.
[/quote]

I dont know what to say...of topic I know, but you just helped me truly understand the feel of release in your post. Your words are worth at least 10 strokes of OB and unplayable lies. Thanks.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1291450887' post='2822788']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1289789080' post='2790701']
... Hogan's advice to feel some leverage in the other three digits, which also connect to what he called the "underneath" muscles and tendons of the arms, which connect to tricep muscle. Hogan wanted to never activate the biceps, use the tricep to push the arms away from the torso on "full stretch" - as Percy Boomer called it, one of Hogan's primary influences.
[/quote]

I dont know what to say...of topic I know, but you just helped me truly understand the feel of release in your post. Your words are worth at least 10 strokes of OB and unplayable lies. Thanks.
[/quote]

That might be the answer and that You can't do if You are not open from shoulders. That is about 90 degrees difference in motion as muscular action that 99% of players do.

I know some of You hate this, but thats how I tried to explain it in Hogans angle.

[TeeAce]

Again one more eagle from Kelvin from Hawaii! Even if it's more selling video, he demonstrates great way the moves as supination, palmar flexion and ulnar deviation. Also work of the right arm.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/speedchain111#p/a/f/0/oOil_baXtq4"]Kelvin[/url]

[chris_golf]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1291449490' post='2822774']
So so true. Foe example ulnar deviation is 90% of wrist action, and in that way of move there is about no force toward the target.

[/quote]

Hello TeeAce,

if ulnar deviation is 90 % of wrist action then please explain me how Mr. Hogan returned at impact to the shaftplane...
Modern day players use a lot of ulnar deviation, but Mr. Hogan?

[attachment=693690:BenHoganDSLP1.jpg][attachment=693691:BenHoganDSLP6.jpg]
[attachment=693692:TA3DSLP1.jpg][attachment=693694:TA3DSLP6.jpg]

In the 1950´s most players released like Mr. Hogan on the shaftplane - how they did it - I don´t know but with ulnar deviation they would need
more upright modern day equipment or they would hit toe down divots, which they not did.

Maybe I misinterpret ulnar deviation, but I would be thankful if you can explain how this can work together ( returning on shaftplane + ulnar deviation).

Chris