Is Carnoustie the toughest links course in the world?

[Chris L The Golf Dude]

Yes or No?

 

 

2007 Open should play a hell of lot tougher than 2004, 2005, and 2006.

 

a la 1999.

 

Winner was +6.

[skinkman]

well, there aren't many links with trees around...I for one don't think Carnoustie is as true a links course as Hoylake or St. Andrews....

[rew37087]

Yes, the hardest test anywhere if the wind blows.

 

I played it in 1995 before all the hype. Let me tell you about the first hole.

 

Played 385yds: I hit 5wood (the only thing at the time I could hit straight off the tee box, carry was 200 yds) I hit another 5 wood and then played my third shot with a nine iron (carry back then was about 120 yds) and then two putted for a wonderful bogey.

 

The wind was blowing so hard the flags were touching the ground. I hit a sw that day (full swing) that travelled about 25 yds the ball was being pushed back towards you. I mhave played most of the championship course over there, and the wind there is something to see. The course is tough, but with the wind it's impossible.

 

I live in Tn now and we would call it a tornado LOL

[Ducky]

I hit a sw that day (full swing) that travelled about 25 yds the ball was being pushed back towards you.

:man_in_love:

[Lundingolfer]

Peter Dawson( Rand A Sec) said on Monday that the trees at Carnoustie are to be removed prior to the Open Championship next year. As a Fifer who plays both at St Andrews and Carnoustie regularily in terms of the course there is no comparison, Carnoustie is miles ahead in terms of difficulty. Infact the hardest couse in Fife has to be the re modeled Dukes course at Craigtoun St Andrews it is now an extreme test from the black tees it makes kingsbarns look short and easy.

 

If your in Fife and you want Difficulty go play the Dukes course and takes lots of ammunition.

[Simp]

I'll tell you how hard it is...Ben Hogan won there and never went back!

[drewspin]

Carnoustie certainly has the toughest 3 finishing holes in any links layout.

[sergizmo]

I hope it plays tough. It doesn't have to play as brutal as it did in '99, but the winning score shouldn't be 18 under.

 

Hoylake was a total joke. Completely defenseless without wind. Most of the holes played and looked similar as well. There is no wonder the last Open held there was ages ago. I hope it never returns to this dump.

[dmboak]

Yes or No?

 

 

2007 Open should play a hell of lot tougher than 2004, 2005, and 2006.

 

a la 1999.

 

Winner was +6.

 

Tough to say if it is. Then again, how many people have played all the tough links courses in the world. I wonder how hard it is to play Sand Hills in the wind...

[CooGAR]

How about Whistling Straits in a nice 25-30mph wind. OUCH!

[peteman29]

Royal County Down

 

"Royal County Down is a pure links, in the truest sense of the word.

 

My advice to anyone playing this great course is to keep it very straight off the tee - stray from the fairways at your peril!

 

It is a tremendous test of golf and the outward half especially is as fine a nine holes as I have ever played"

 

TOM WATSON

 

 

The Royal County Down is consistently rated as one of the world's top ten courses and, in recent years, has hosted both the British Amateur Championship, the Curtis Cup and the British Seniors Open Championship. As well as one of the world's most spectacular courses, it is one of the most challenging and thrilling to play. When you see it you will understand why it was rated number two in the Golf World survey of the 100 Greatest Courses in the British Isles. If you only play one golf course in Northern Ireland, then this is the one! The looming Mourne Mountains at your back, the stretch of golden stand arcing towards the horizon before you...like emerald ribbons scattered among tall sandhills wrapped in heather and gorse, the Royal County Down presents an irresistible challenge.

 

It's a natural setting for a golf course. According to its designer the legendary Tom Morris, it was already 90% to being a golf course' when he laid it out in 1889 and received 4 guineas payment. The course was made Royal by Prince Edward VII in 1908, and continues to be a favourite of the famous, among them Tom Watson as a British Open warm up welcome.Loved and feared in equal measure, the Royal County Down consists of two 18-hole courses to challenge the most expert golfer.

[skinkman]

Hoylake was a total joke. Completely defenseless without wind. Most of the holes played and looked similar as well. There is no wonder the last Open held there was ages ago. I hope it never returns to this dump

 

which tournament were you watching? just look at the names who missed the cut or played poorly. ALso look at the leaderboard..what does it tell you? These are scores already posted or bettered at ST. ANdrews by Nick Faldo and Tiger. -19. Does it mean we should'nt go back to St. ANdrews? afterall how many major courses have 2 driveable holes? Course was so defenseless that Mickelson struggled even with his so called one of the best short games on tour.

Tiger won at that number because he is that good..not because the site is a dump. If it was, the scores would have been -30..giving a really defenseless course with people hitting drivers and wedges

[dannypharvey]

Sergizmo, have you ever been to Hoylake?

[cambo3295]

I hope it plays tough. It doesn't have to play as brutal as it did in '99, but the winning score shouldn't be 18 under.

 

Hoylake was a total joke. Completely defenseless without wind. Most of the holes played and looked similar as well. There is no wonder the last Open held there was ages ago. I hope it never returns to this dump.

 

Impressive post, chock full of first-hand knowledge.

 

You are right that Carnoustie doesn't need to play as it did in '99, but that was partly the result of the conditions leading up to the Open, and partly one or two mistakes were made which won't be repeated.

 

You are wrong that Hoylake was either a joke or a dump. Not just a bit wrong, but wildly, unequivocally, disastrously wrong.

 

Sorry.

 

Iain

[sergizmo]

Hoylake was a total joke. Completely defenseless without wind. Most of the holes played and looked similar as well. There is no wonder the last Open held there was ages ago. I hope it never returns to this dump

 

which tournament were you watching? just look at the names who missed the cut or played poorly. ALso look at the leaderboard..what does it tell you? These are scores already posted or bettered at ST. ANdrews by Nick Faldo and Tiger. -19. Does it mean we should'nt go back to St. ANdrews? afterall how many major courses have 2 driveable holes? Course was so defenseless that Mickelson struggled even with his so called one of the best short games on tour.

Tiger won at that number because he is that good..not because the site is a dump. If it was, the scores would have been -30..giving a really defenseless course with people hitting drivers and wedges

 

Ok, I went a little too far in my post. I'm just dissapointed that Tiger won the Open while only hitting driver once. A major should test all aspects of the players games and it certainly didn't test Tiger's driving. Yes, he hit amazing mid irons and some long irons into greens. No doubt about that. But regardless of what he does, he should still be forced to hit driver now and then to score. He wasn't. When a player, regadless of how good he is, is able to shoot 18 under at a major tourney without hitting driver, there is something wrong with the course or course setup.

 

I guess I'm also a little dissapointed in his competition. Sergio choked early and often. Ernie failed to capitalize on his drives with horrible short iron/wedge play. DiMarco was really the only player to hang with Tiger. The "fear" of Tiger is back, and with it poor Sunday play by other players in contention.

 

Without wind, PGA tour pros eat St. Andrews alive. Like you said, 19 under. That is a VERY low score for a major. One of the reasons is that they can drive the ball all over the planet and still score.

 

Mickelson is so up and down from one tourney to the next that using him as a gauge isn't very reliable. It's feast or famine with Phil, and this week it was famine.

[sergizmo]

I hope it plays tough. It doesn't have to play as brutal as it did in '99, but the winning score shouldn't be 18 under.

 

Hoylake was a total joke. Completely defenseless without wind. Most of the holes played and looked similar as well. There is no wonder the last Open held there was ages ago. I hope it never returns to this dump.

 

Impressive post, chock full of first-hand knowledge.

 

You are right that Carnoustie doesn't need to play as it did in '99, but that was partly the result of the conditions leading up to the Open, and partly one or two mistakes were made which won't be repeated.

 

You are wrong that Hoylake was either a joke or a dump. Not just a bit wrong, but wildly, unequivocally, disastrously wrong.

 

Sorry.

 

Iain

 

 

No need to get testy. Your sarcastic and condescending tone is completely innapropriate. We're just talking about golf, no need to make it personal.

 

I did go too far in my comments about Hoylake. See my response above to this.

 

However, if Hoylake is such a fantastic Open venue, then why isn't it in the rotation more often? When was the last time they played here, '67? Do you honestly think it will return here soon?

[sergizmo]

Sergizmo, have you ever been to Hoylake?

 

No I haven't.

 

Do you think Hoylake is among the better courses in the UK? If so, can you explain to me why. I'm not being a smartass here, just curious.

[cambo3295]

No need to get testy. Your sarcastic and condescending tone is completely innapropriate. We're just talking about golf, no need to make it personal.

 

I did go too far in my comments about Hoylake. See my response above to this.

 

However, if Hoylake is such a fantastic Open venue, then why isn't it in the rotation more often? When was the last time they played here, '67? Do you honestly think it will return here soon?

 

Well, please forgive me for being so arsey. I only responded in like tone to your original post, which you now admit was also inappropriate.

 

Is Hoylake one of the top courses in the UK? Yes, it's not the absolute best, but it is worthy. It is strategic, it usually tests your whole game, and it is really fair, almost the equal of Muirfield in that. Its weaknesses might be perceived that it's not ridiculously long, none of the par 4's or 3's are crazy lengths, all the par 5's are reasonably in range, 2/3 of it is quite flat, some quirks exist like the 3rd/18th OB on the members' practice ground, and the greens don't all have absurd undulations. Then again, all of those could be considered strengths as well.

 

It will return to Hoylake in the near future (pretty much confirmed by Peter Dawson already), not immediately, as 2007-11 are spoken for I think. It hasn't been there since 67 because there wasn't enough space for a practice ground of the size they need now, as well as the tented village and all the hospitality stuff. Once a load of land was bought a few years ago, and they decided to use a bridge across the road to get to the Hoylake municipal course which was turned into a practice ground, the problems were solved.

 

Most Open venues will have good scoring under the conditions this year. Long hot dry summer, rough dies, course plays fast and short, no wind for almost the entire Championship. If we'd had a wet summer followed by 10 days of hot dry weather, and then a stiff breeze for the week, scores would have been much higher.

 

To have a course which actually does FORCE Tiger to hit driver, removes 85% of the rest of the field from contention. The great thing about Hoylake was that it gave choices, and everyone in the field could play it - that's pretty rare. Peter Dawson said it was the first time he could remember not a single complaint from any player all week. Now, obviously the conditions meant that the decisions made by some of the players were skewed towards playing conservatively, but they wouldn't do that under different weather, rough and ground conditions.

 

I hope that helps

 

Iain

[sergizmo]

No need to get testy. Your sarcastic and condescending tone is completely innapropriate. We're just talking about golf, no need to make it personal.

 

I did go too far in my comments about Hoylake. See my response above to this.

 

However, if Hoylake is such a fantastic Open venue, then why isn't it in the rotation more often? When was the last time they played here, '67? Do you honestly think it will return here soon?

 

Well, please forgive me for being so arsey. I only responded in like tone to your original post, which you now admit was also inappropriate.

 

Is Hoylake one of the top courses in the UK? Yes, it's not the absolute best, but it is worthy. It is strategic, it usually tests your whole game, and it is really fair, almost the equal of Muirfield in that. Its weaknesses might be perceived that it's not ridiculously long, none of the par 4's or 3's are crazy lengths, all the par 5's are reasonably in range, 2/3 of it is quite flat, some quirks exist like the 3rd/18th OB on the members' practice ground, and the greens don't all have absurd undulations. Then again, all of those could be considered strengths as well.

 

It will return to Hoylake in the near future (pretty much confirmed by Peter Dawson already), not immediately, as 2007-11 are spoken for I think. It hasn't been there since 67 because there wasn't enough space for a practice ground of the size they need now, as well as the tented village and all the hospitality stuff. Once a load of land was bought a few years ago, and they decided to use a bridge across the road to get to the Hoylake municipal course which was turned into a practice ground, the problems were solved.

 

Most Open venues will have good scoring under the conditions this year. Long hot dry summer, rough dies, course plays fast and short, no wind for almost the entire Championship. If we'd had a wet summer followed by 10 days of hot dry weather, and then a stiff breeze for the week, scores would have been much higher.

 

To have a course which actually does FORCE Tiger to hit driver, removes 85% of the rest of the field from contention. The great thing about Hoylake was that it gave choices, and everyone in the field could play it - that's pretty rare. Peter Dawson said it was the first time he could remember not a single complaint from any player all week. Now, obviously the conditions meant that the decisions made by some of the players were skewed towards playing conservatively, but they wouldn't do that under different weather, rough and ground conditions.

 

I hope that helps

 

Iain

 

 

That post was very informative, thank you.

 

You are right about the weather, it makes a huge difference to how links golf is played. Way more influential than on parkland courses. The dried out conditions allowed Tiger to play so conservatively all 4 days, and he took full advantage.

 

I have to admit that when I think of links golf, undulating/mounded fairways and greens come to mind. There wasn't much of that at Hoylake (compared to the other venues), so the course looked rather dull to my untrained eye.

 

Serge

[dannypharvey]

that's where the difficulty comes in. you can't see all the trouble on approach shots and the greens have subtle breaks in them making them very awkward to read. also, you can see all the bunkers off the tee which will make most golfers lose their bottle when they can see what they have to contend with. as for it being flat, though, i do have to agree that Royal Liverpool is very flat. however, that just makes it more difficult when the wind blows because there is no shelter from dunes. if you want a links with HUGE dunes then either go to Wallasey or Royal Birkdale (i have only listed local ones). it's a shame really that Wallasey doesn't host any competitions for the pros because it would scare the sh*t out of them off the tee.

[Langlands]

I hope it plays tough. It doesn't have to play as brutal as it did in '99, but the winning score shouldn't be 18 under.

 

Hoylake was a total joke. Completely defenseless without wind. Most of the holes played and looked similar as well. There is no wonder the last Open held there was ages ago. I hope it never returns to this dump.

 

Impressive post, chock full of first-hand knowledge.

 

You are right that Carnoustie doesn't need to play as it did in '99, but that was partly the result of the conditions leading up to the Open, and partly one or two mistakes were made which won't be repeated.

 

You are wrong that Hoylake was either a joke or a dump. Not just a bit wrong, but wildly, unequivocally, disastrously wrong.

 

Sorry.

 

Iain

 

 

No need to get testy. Your sarcastic and condescending tone is completely innapropriate. We're just talking about golf, no need to make it personal.

 

I did go too far in my comments about Hoylake. See my response above to this.

 

However, if Hoylake is such a fantastic Open venue, then why isn't it in the rotation more often? When was the last time they played here, '67? Do you honestly think it will return here soon?

 

Another reason it hadn't been back to Hoylake for so long was that the R&A felt the surrounding roads weren't capable of coping with the huge amount of traffic an Open Championship brings to the area. A new motorway in recent years has made it more accessible.