Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338406288' post='5002264']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338405828' post='5002216']
How about this one?...square already?

[attachment=1187500:hoganp6.jpg]

[/quote]

Apologies 9 o'clock wasn't what I meant................ yes this is the position I was referring to.

now keep the right elbow on the hip and rotate the right side so the hands reach the left hip pocket, and basically the impact position............ the clubface should be pretty square.
[/quote]

This one? L hand not open? Square already???

[attachment=1187658:IMG_0371.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

How about even further? Square already? Not gonna supinate?

[attachment=1187662:IMG_0531.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

Even further...square?

[attachment=1187666:Hoganp6.5.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

Look at 3rd pic...square?

Look at the 6th pic...L hand very supinated...

[attachment=1187668:IMG_0501.jpg]

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338405838' post='5002222']

I think Joe bows the wrist/ulnar deviates/flexes, whatever you want to call that.
[/quote]

It just happens because the left forearm/wrist is leading the passive hands, which are dragging the lagging clubhead.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338410797' post='5002708']
Look at 3rd pic...square?

Look at the 6th pic...L hand very supinated...

[attachment=1187668:IMG_0501.jpg]
[/quote]


Showing a million pictures of Hogan and saying that he supinates, he supinates, he supinates........... doesn't mean that he actively does this.......... My main gripe is that I don't like you pinpointing supinatation in this way as it is a very misleading area for students of Hogan to focus on............. supination can be equated to flipping or actively rolling the hands through impact, and if you have to do this then you've got the main elements of the Hogan swing WRONG.

Sure there is a small amount of supination (as said before) but really it is the aggressive rotation around a consistent spine angle of the whole upper torso and shoulders to the left, and the effect this has on the arms, that squares the clubface into impact......... crucially combined with ulnar deviation of the hands.

The 6th picture in the sequence is so past impact that is almost pointless to study............ whoever said said Hogan had a Zach Johnson finish?............... if you lock the hands in a 'bowed' position coming into impact and then rotate the shoulders and upper torso hard left then the hands, if they follow this same path, will naturally roll over as a result of this motion, especially as after impact the momentum of the club will extend the right arm away from the body in a [u]skimming-stones-on-the-pond[/u] / [u]topspin-forehand[/u] / [u]push[/u] motion.......... that is unless you fight it (or don't have the athleticism) and want to block the ball. The release of the club at the end is just a comfortable and natural way to finish this swing, just like the cupped left wrist is a comfortable hand position at the top of Hogan's back swing.

I really don't think you understand the action I was describing.......... the proof of the pudding is in the eating and if you're not prepared to test it out (whilst getting all the other Hogan variables in place) I don't know how you'll really understand. Solely looking at images isn't going to help you at this stage.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338437774' post='5003044']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338410797' post='5002708']
Look at 3rd pic...square?

Look at the 6th pic...L hand very supinated...

[attachment=1187668:IMG_0501.jpg]
[/quote]


Showing a million pictures of Hogan and saying that he supinates, he supinates, he supinates........... doesn't mean that he actively does this.......... My main gripe is that I don't like you pinpointing supinatation in this way as it is a very misleading area for students of Hogan to focus on............. supination can be equated to flipping or actively rolling the hands through impact, and if you have to do this then you've got the main elements of the Hogan swing WRONG.

Sure there is a small amount of supination (as said before) but really it is the aggressive rotation around a consistent spine angle of the whole upper torso and shoulders to the left, and the effect this has on the arms, that squares the clubface into impact......... crucially combined with ulnar deviation of the hands.

The 6th picture in the sequence is so past impact that is almost pointless to study............ whoever said said Hogan had a Zach Johnson finish?............... if you lock the hands in a 'bowed' position coming into impact and then rotate the shoulders and upper torso hard left then the hands, if they follow this same path, will naturally roll over as a result of this motion, especially as after impact the momentum of the club will extend the right arm away from the body in a skimming stones on the pond / push motion.......... that is unless you fight it (or don't have the athleticism) and want to block the ball. The release of the club at the end is just a comfortable and natural way to finish the swing, just like the cupped left wrist is a comfortable hand position at the top of Hogan's back swing.

I really don't think you understand the action I was describing.......... the proof of the pudding is in the eating and if you're not prepared to test it out (whilst getting all the other Hogan variables in place) I don't know how you'll really understand. Solely looking at images isn't going to help you at this stage.
[/quote]

Ok. So we now go to the intent. What Hogan is thinking. So I'll be happy to discuss things other than pictures. So we discuss intent, and the best way to determine that is what the man himself said, right?

He said the shoulders and L arm should turn parallel to the plane of glass. I repeat, shoulders AND arms. That means, BOTH shoulders and arms. So if the shoulders swing quite upright, how can Hogan have swung low and left?

And here is a picture to prove it..

[attachment=1188024:pichoganmexicopostimpact.jpg]

[chrisgilly09]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338400224' post='5001562']


[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]
[/quote]


Nice pic, has to/did supinate from there. I smell whatcha cookin svs

[svsvincenzo]

With Hogan's very fast pivot, how could he have closed the clubface coming from this P5 position with the clubface perfectly perpendicular to the spine and passing thru the elbow plane...

[attachment=1188026:IMG_0371.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

And still with a clubface perp to the spine and still square to the shoulders at P6 in here...

[attachment=1188030:IMG_0531.jpg]

And then swing low and left despite turning his shoulders very upright (yeah, truly parallel to the Hogan plane...) as shown in this picture?...

[attachment=1188032:gifhoganmexicovertical.jpg]

And yet, how come his L elbow is still so much in front of his torso in here with his inside elbow facing up the sky, his L forearm supinated and going upwards if he didn't supinate before and swung low and left?...as shown in this picture...

[attachment=1188034:IMG_0494.jpg]

And lastly...with a high hands finish on top like this...

[attachment=1188036:IMG_0499.jpg]

You mean to say he swung low and left with the supination coming in naturally?...The supination thing I can understand why some might not believe Hogan intended it because there's a geometry and physics that will make the hands supinate without help, naturally, and in another case impossibly if without help...but the low and left swing? I totally disagree. As I said, that is a compensation for a naturally occurring premature and too fast uncocking L wrist and closing clubface that will make you dig the ground hard...that will make the clubhead so under plane...same thing being avoided and compensated for by straightening the spine angle or humping the goat...

And lastly...from here with the hands so low to the ground and close to the legs with the clubhead so behind with the L wristcock still there, what would you do?...swing low and left and don't supinate?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLIxRTcPFQ[/media]

You will hit the ground so fat that it will look like your digging with a shovel...and you will bend/curve the base plane line so left that you have to have superior timing to catch that itsy bits glimpse of the bended base line that matches the squareness of your face relative to the clubhead path...

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338443038' post='5003452']
And still with a clubface perp to the spine and still square to the shoulders at P6 in here...

[attachment=1188030:IMG_0531.jpg]

And then swing low and left despite turning his shoulders very upright (yeah, truly parallel to the Hogan plane...) as shown in this picture?...

[attachment=1188032:gifhoganmexicovertical.jpg]

And yet, how come his L elbow is still so much in front of his torso in here with his inside elbow facing up the sky, his L forearm supinated and going upwards if he didn't supinate before and swung low and left?...as shown in this picture...

[attachment=1188034:IMG_0494.jpg]

And lastly...with a high hands finish on top like this...

[attachment=1188036:IMG_0499.jpg]

You mean to say he swung low and left with the supination coming in naturally?...The supination thing I can understand why some might not believe Hogan intended it because there's a geometry and physics that will make the hands supinate without help, naturally, and in another case impossibly if without help...but the low and left swing? I totally disagree. As I said, that is a compensation for a naturally occurring premature and too fast uncocking L wrist and closing clubface that will make you dig the ground hard...that will make the clubhead so under plane...same thing being avoided and compensated for by straightening the spine angle or humping the goat...

And lastly...from here with the hands so low to the ground and close to the legs with the clubhead so behind with the L wristcock still there, what would you do?...swing low and left and don't supinate?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLIxRTcPFQ[/media]

You will hit the ground so fat that it will look like your digging with a shovel...and you will bend/curve the base plane line so left that you have to have superior timing to catch that itsy bits glimpse of the bended base line that matches the squareness of your face relative to the clubhead path...
[/quote]

I'm sure the last few posts have greatly soothed your OCD......... but where did I say Hogan SWUNG LOW AND LEFT????

talk about a red herring.

...... and I thought you weren't going to use pictures anymore?

[nicebutdim]

There is a good reason to focus on [u]turning the torso, shoulders and arms together left[/u] (not SWINGING LOW & LEFT) around a preserved spine angle.......... this is to mirror the flat swing plane and enable a release of the right hip through transition.

For me the whole point of Hogan's motion is to swing baseball style around a consistent column (the spine!)........... during the backswing he winds up smoothly without stalling, and on the downswing he found a way to release powerfully without stalling the right side.

For me that's Hogan's [b]SECRET[/b]............ a body pivot controlled swing, where hip stalling an thus upper body timing has largely been removed.

People can talk about supination, release, and a myriad other things, but they are missing the overall point imo.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338443038' post='5003452']
And yet, how come his L elbow is still so much in front of his torso in here with his inside elbow facing up the sky, his L forearm supinated and going upwards if he didn't supinate before and swung low and left?...as shown in this picture...

[sup][attachment=1188034:IMG_0494.jpg][/sup]

[/quote]

[i](Ignoring the irrelevant low and left bit) [/i][b]If you can't understand how this is position is possible without Hogan [i]actively[/i] supinating thru impact, then you really don't understand his swing.[/b]

I sorry but you don't, and you certainly haven't experienced his motion yourself.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338446222' post='5003562']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338443038' post='5003452']
And yet, how come his L elbow is still so much in front of his torso in here with his inside elbow facing up the sky, his L forearm supinated and going upwards if he didn't supinate before and swung low and left?...as shown in this picture...

[sup][attachment=1188034:IMG_0494.jpg][/sup]

[/quote]

[i](Ignoring the irrelevant low and left bit) [/i][b]If you can't understand how this is position is possible without Hogan actively supinating thru impact, then you really don't understand his swing.[/b]

I sorry but you don't, and you certainly haven't experienced his motion yourself.
[/quote]

Thanks Judge. But I'll stick to my guns...

You mentioned rotate to the LEFT...that is why I commented on that...but I you are saying it is not low and left, but just perpendicular to the spine angle, I agree with you...

And I said I'll be happy to discuss intent other than pictures...that means in ordinary english intent AND pictures as well...instead of pictures ONLY...

I am not saying that HOgan is supinating ONLY...I am saying with ALL the other things going on in HIS swing, he MUST supinate, otherwise he will not hit the ball flush...

What's with your tone? Disagreements are better...we will learn more...rather than just one idea or opinion going on and on and on forever...don't you agree?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338445736' post='5003550']
There is a good reason to focus on [u]turning the torso, shoulders and arms together left[/u] (not SWINGING LOW & LEFT) around a preserved spine angle.......... this is to mirror the flat swing plane and enable a release of the right hip through transition.

For me the whole point of Hogan's motion is to swing baseball style around a consistent column (the spine!)........... during the backswing he winds up smoothly without stalling, and on the downswing he found a way to release powerfully without stalling the right side.

For me that's Hogan's [b]SECRET[/b]............ a body pivot controlled swing, where hip stalling an thus upper body timing has largely been removed.

People can talk about supination, release, and a myriad other things, but they are missing the overall point imo.
[/quote]

I actually agree with you on this one...seems like it takes one to know one to figure out the OCD...

You mentioned the FLAT swing..Hogan ain't flat...you want pictures and writings and intent to come with that one?

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338448892' post='5003608']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338445736' post='5003550']
There is a good reason to focus on [u]turning the torso, shoulders and arms together left[/u] (not SWINGING LOW & LEFT) around a preserved spine angle.......... this is to mirror the flat swing plane and enable a release of the right hip through transition.

For me the whole point of Hogan's motion is to swing baseball style around a consistent column (the spine!)........... during the backswing he winds up smoothly without stalling, and on the downswing he found a way to release powerfully without stalling the right side.

For me that's Hogan's [b]SECRET[/b]............ a body pivot controlled swing, where hip stalling an thus upper body timing has largely been removed.

People can talk about supination, release, and a myriad other things, but they are missing the overall point imo.
[/quote]

I actually agree with you on this one...seems like it takes one to know one to figure out the OCD...

You mentioned the FLAT swing..Hogan ain't flat...you want pictures and writings and intent to come with that one?
[/quote]

Not really interested to be honest............. IMO Hogan had low hands at the top which feels very flat when you turn it, and there is less laying off needed to hit his swing plane on the downswing .......... but again not really interested in debating this........ so lets move on.

Anyway against my better judgement I'm going to admit............ [b]HOGAN SUPINATES COMING INTO IMPACT [/b][b] [/b]

This way we can acknowledge the fact that the hands have to turn over slightly coming into impact (which I've said all along) otherwise the shot will be pushed.

I want to caveat this by saying that you're getting too caught up in mechanics and missing the bigger picture................ particularly as supination is very misleading terminology in the modern context because it insinuates actively rolling/flipping the hands through the impact area.............. this supination issue is fairly unimportant and misses all the key feeling and actions before and through impact............ Hogan swung into a strong left hand with the heel of his right and resisted the flip (otherwise it was back to hook city) and mostly let the torso and shoulders turn the hands over, and this was after getting the left hand into a bowed position on the way down.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338446222' post='5003562']

Not really interested to be honest............. Hogan had a flat, around, 1 plane'ish swing that he largely mirrored on both side........... hit Tiger Woods pre-Foley position at the top of the backswing, and then hit Hogan's and tell me whose is more upright/high/two-plane whatever you want to call it.......... but again not really interested in debating this........ so lets move on.

Anyway against my better judgement I'm going to admit............ [b]HOGAN SUPINATES COMING INTO IMPACT [/b][b] [/b]

This way we can acknowledge the fact that the hands have to turn over slightly coming into impact otherwise the shot will be pushed.

I want to caveat this by saying that you're getting too caught up in mechanics and missing the bigger picture................ particularly as supination is very misleading terminology in the modern context because it insinuates actively rolling/flipping the hands through the impact area.............. this supination issue is unimportant and misses all the key feeling and actions before and through impact............ Hogan hit into a strong left hand with the heel of his right and resisted the flip (otherwise it was back to hook city) and mostly let the torso and shoulders turn the hands over.
[/quote]

No disrespect. But if you are not interested or even try to look at Hogan and see whether he truly turned those shoulders, especially the L shoulder, parallel to the Hogan plane of glass (ball to shoulders at setup), you are missing a LOT. The L arm is flat or inline with the shoulders' line. But his shoulders ain't flat, it is far from flat.

Just for learning, please allow me to post this...

[attachment=1188044:gifhoganmexicoquickswing.gif]

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338453611' post='5003678']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338446222' post='5003562']
Not really interested to be honest............. Hogan had a flat, around, 1 plane'ish swing that he largely mirrored on both side........... hit Tiger Woods pre-Foley position at the top of the backswing, and then hit Hogan's and tell me whose is more upright/high/two-plane whatever you want to call it.......... but again not really interested in debating this........ so lets move on.

Anyway against my better judgement I'm going to admit............ [b]HOGAN SUPINATES COMING INTO IMPACT [/b][b] [/b]

This way we can acknowledge the fact that the hands have to turn over slightly coming into impact otherwise the shot will be pushed.

I want to caveat this by saying that you're getting too caught up in mechanics and missing the bigger picture................ particularly as supination is very misleading terminology in the modern context because it insinuates actively rolling/flipping the hands through the impact area.............. this supination issue is unimportant and misses all the key feeling and actions before and through impact............ Hogan hit into a strong left hand with the heel of his right and resisted the flip (otherwise it was back to hook city) and mostly let the torso and shoulders turn the hands over.
[/quote]

No disrespect. But if you are not interested or even try to look at Hogan and see whether he truly turned those shoulders, especially the L shoulder, parallel to the Hogan plane of glass (ball to shoulders at setup), you are missing a LOT. The L arm is flat or inline with the shoulders' line. But his shoulders ain't flat, it is far from flat.

Just for learning, please allow me to post this...

[attachment=1188044:gifhoganmexicoquickswing.gif]
[/quote]

Actually I edited my initial post to say

'[color=#282828]IMO Hogan had low hands at the top which feels very flat when you turn into it, and there is less laying off needed to hit his swing plane on the downswing'[/color]

[color=#282828]it certainly feels very flat and around your body when you keep the elbow stuck to the right hip and don't release the spine angle.[/color]

[nicebutdim]

@ [color=#282828][size=3][b]svsvincenzo[/b][/size][/color]

Mate, its good to have these discussions as it allows me to explore and clarify things in my own mind, and most importantly when I swing the golf club.

I may be incorrect but I feel the the reason we are not agreeing is our goals aren't really aligned. You see I'm not looking to develop some mechanical theory of Hogan's swing to present to people, I'm actually actively trying to [u]SWING[/u] like him by exploring the dynamics that set-up and trigger his swing, all the cause & effect relationships, his macro action, micro moves, and the feelings that accompany them.

I've thrashed this out for over a year and many thousands of balls. Basically whilst developing my own swing I've also been work on the Hogan on the side. Right now I've got my rhythmic Snead swing with a snap release as my go-to-swing (feels most natural) and it performs very well especially on longer clubs. I also can imitate a 'modern' swing no problems and this performs v well on my mid-short irons but not nearly as well as the long ones......... with the irons 6 and up I'm shaping the ball like Bubba Watson, but with a 3 I'm just trying to make solid contact.

Anyway onto my Hogan............ I've managed to get the major components in place and though I'm still working out the kinks it does perform to an extent that brings me great joy and importantly in a very different way/feeling to the other two I've mentioned.................. I know I've got IT, from the set up, to right leg pivot, to transition (v tricky though), to impact dynamics, to follow through............. for the first time in my life I can give the arms a free ride whilst freely rotating the right side of my body with no hip stall..........

Anyways this practical approach has been working because its allows me to crack a 3 iron blade (1989 Maruman) 220-230 yards........... and it feel easy and almost totally lower body driven on the downswing............ my goal for the next 6 months is to improve my consistency and further iron out the kinks.

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to get a precise angle on Hogan's shoulder plane, its very unimportant to me personally as I have a feel for his total motion, however I guess if somehow 'learning' about it got my 3 iron up to 255 yards then it might be worth it but for a guy of 6'0" 170lbs with below average natural flexibility (but the yoga helps) I find that highly unlikely.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338453611' post='5003678']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338446222' post='5003562']
Not really interested to be honest............. Hogan had a flat, around, 1 plane'ish swing that he largely mirrored on both side........... hit Tiger Woods pre-Foley position at the top of the backswing, and then hit Hogan's and tell me whose is more upright/high/two-plane whatever you want to call it.......... but again not really interested in debating this........ so lets move on.

Anyway against my better judgement I'm going to admit............ [b]HOGAN SUPINATES COMING INTO IMPACT [/b][b] [/b]

This way we can acknowledge the fact that the hands have to turn over slightly coming into impact otherwise the shot will be pushed.

I want to caveat this by saying that you're getting too caught up in mechanics and missing the bigger picture................ particularly as supination is very misleading terminology in the modern context because it insinuates actively rolling/flipping the hands through the impact area.............. this supination issue is unimportant and misses all the key feeling and actions before and through impact............ Hogan hit into a strong left hand with the heel of his right and resisted the flip (otherwise it was back to hook city) and mostly let the torso and shoulders turn the hands over.
[/quote]

No disrespect. But if you are not interested or even try to look at Hogan and see whether he truly turned those shoulders, especially the L shoulder, parallel to the Hogan plane of glass (ball to shoulders at setup), you are missing a LOT. The L arm is flat or inline with the shoulders' line. But his shoulders ain't flat, it is far from flat.

Just for learning, please allow me to post this...

[attachment=1188044:gifhoganmexicoquickswing.gif]
[/quote]

btw interesting observation.............. I'll put it in the memory bank could come in useful one of these days

[ej002]

Hogan's plane is pretty low. Flat may not be the best word, but he is short and swung very much around his body using his core. With his super pitch elbow his right shoulder is going to have to go down to allow him to get to the ball or else he would Kevin Na it. But that does not make his swing steep - that driving elbow actually flattens its out. You can clearly see this right after transition.

Nicebutdim got it right IMO. The left arm does actually supinate a bit, it has to (and it would do so much less with a stronger grip - maybe even not at all - i think is what Tee was saying). But proper terminology says wrists don't supinate. The lower end of the forearm does. The wrist is its own joint and can do more interesting motions. But the supination is a result of other things going on. So I think when Hogan said supinate, he was showing the wrist action and got it fouled up. There are a bunch of weird things in 5L and this is one of them. While I think everyone understands what Vincenzo is saying about what Hogan said/wrote, I am not convinced that interpretion of his description translates into a full out active roll.

I think you can see intent with the right arm. It doesn't straighten prematurely or even right after impact like a roller's action. It is clear as day.

So unless you are taking the position of MoeHogan from earlier in the thread - which is Hogan supinated his left arm and tried to also supinate the right arm (both twisting in opposite directions) -I don't see active supination as in a roll. And for every picture at impact you show, I can show one where the elbow is pointing at the target and the cuppy part of the elbow away from the target and not at the caddy from the caddy view. So I don't believe in that goofy Bertrand twisty move either. But even for argument's sake, I don't think Bertrand's description is a "supination" in the sense that it is a roll. It is kind of like an internal flex/twist of the upper arm and it does not cause the forearms to roll over as we would see in VJ or Mickelson. All these are kind of "in betweens" of our arguments. The only think I have a problem with and I think Nicebutim and others - is that it sounds like you are saying without active rolling of the arms the face won't square. We are saying, the face will square regardless.

[svsvincenzo]

I am with Dap, HG101 and eightiron on this one...

Hogan said it correctly. Everything he said is correct. The turning of shoulders on the Hogan plane, the pronation, the supination, the back of L hand facing the sky on top, tje maintenance of the R leg anglr, the hips firing while forgetting about the arms and hands in transition, then giving it all he's got...no matter how hard he turns and rolls it, he couldn't hook it...the secret...I discovered it years ago when I read the '55 Life secret article...lol

[ej002]

I think it is funny you talk about yourself in the third person.

[hoganfan924]

Does he supinate his left hand, or is his left hand being supinated, that is the key?!

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338481604' post='5005448']
I think it is funny you talk about yourself in the third person.
[/quote]

Lol

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338482688' post='5005556']
Does he supinate his left hand, or is his left hand being supinated, that is the key?!
[/quote]

And that key opens the door to the TGM concepts of Horizontal and Angled Hinging. If the left wrist is deliberately rotated, it [b]supinates[/b] - the full roll. If the left wrist isn't rolled, it still[b] gets supinated[/b] - it just happens - the half roll of Angled Hinging. Of course, the latter is what he does for his stock hold fade.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1338485699' post='5005920']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338482688' post='5005556']
Does he supinate his left hand, or is his left hand being supinated, that is the key?!
[/quote]

And that key opens the door to the TGM concepts of Horizontal and Angled Hinging. If the left wrist is deliberately rotated, it [b]supinates[/b] - the full roll. If the left wrist isn't rolled, it still[b] gets supinated[/b] - it just happens - the half roll of Angled Hinging. Of course, the latter is what he does for his stock hold fade.
[/quote]

Yes sir.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1338485699' post='5005920']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338482688' post='5005556']
Does he supinate his left hand, or is his left hand being supinated, that is the key?!
[/quote]

And that key opens the door to the TGM concepts of Horizontal and Angled Hinging. If the left wrist is deliberately rotated, it [b]supinates[/b] - the full roll. If the left wrist isn't rolled, it still[b] gets supinated[/b] - it just happens - the half roll of Angled Hinging. Of course, the latter is what he does for his stock hold fade.
[/quote]

What if Hogan adds #3, and he has a lot...how would that affect the full roll-half roll hinging?

And what if Hogan fires those hips hard and early compared to easier and later...how would that affect the full roll-half roll hinging?

And what if Hogan cups his L wrist a bit as compared to flattening his L wrist...how would that affect the full roll-half roll hinging?

And what if Hogan gets his spine angle more bent over, turns his shoulders parallel to the Hogan plane...how would that affect the full roll-half roll hinging action?

What if Hogan releases his shoulders with a high R shoulder as compared to a lower R shoulder or more reverse-C-ish finish...how would that affect the full roll-half roll hinging?

[hoganfan924]

One problem with the supination issue, is that when viewed face-on in video, it is largely an optical illusion. For example, stand straight up holding a golf club in front of you with the shaft parallel to the ground. Do this in front of a mirror or film it. Now rotate your entire body 90 deg to the right (as in making a backswing) while still keepin the club right in front of you, toe up. Then rotate the entire body 180 to the left (as in a follow through position) still keeping the clubhead toe up. Notice how it appears that you've rotated the clubface 180 degrees when in fact you've done nothing to rotate it at all relative to your body. Do the same thing several times while slowly lowering down into a golf posture. learn something.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338487440' post='5006102']
One problem with the supination issue, is that when viewed face-on in video, it is largely an optical illusion. For example, stand straight up holding a golf club in front of you with the shaft parallel to the ground. Do this in front of a mirror or film it. Now rotate your entire body 90 deg to the right (as in making a backswing) while still keepin the club right in front of you, toe up. Then rotate the entire body 180 to the left (as in a follow through position) still keeping the clubhead toe up. Notice how it appears that you've rotated the clubface 180 degrees when in fact you've done nothing to rotate it at all relative to your body. Do the same thing several times while slowly lowering down into a golf posture. learn something.
[/quote]

Do that same thing, but now turning the shoulders parallel to the Hogan plane...careful, you might hurt your head...