Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Texhoma' timestamp='1337919644' post='4974788']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1337876499' post='4970970']
[quote name='Texhoma' timestamp='1337829333' post='4968382']
Which arm did Hogan use to control BS?
[/quote]


Didn't he specifically say to use the left arm?
[/quote]

He may have said that. That's not what he did.



[/quote]

What is your basis in saying so?

[bscinstnct]

The "secret" of any athletic move is the effectiveness of the pivot.

The pivot is a natural move we have in our dna that our ancestors used to kill prey to eat and enemies with rocks and sticks.

Hogan, mantle, koufax. Masters of this pivot in the time and space of their "game".

The parameters of the pivot to throw or hit don't change much. But each applies and trades off certain aspects according to their vision.

That is the art of being an athlete.

[ej002]

Hey guys...


Let's play a game. Teeace is as crazy as "_______."


Fill in the blank and I will name the winner. Keep it clean please (I will be honest, I will probably win my own game).

[ej002]

Okay since nobody wants to have fun at Tee's expense, I will go first.

Tee is about as dumb as MOE NORMAN. What a bunch of idiots. If Moe was on this site, we should just boo him away for being as idiotic as TeeAce:[attachment=1185852:moephoto.jpg]



There is obviously rolling going on there. There is obviously supination and pronation and all kinds of "ation" going on...

[tembolo1284]

I see what you did there.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338320072' post='4995506']
Hey guys...


Let's play a game. Teeace is as crazy as "_______."


Fill in the blank and I will name the winner. Keep it clean please (I will be honest, I will probably win my own game).
[/quote]

If you do stuff like that, he won't come back, and I won't get to show him things like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg

which show what Hogan is doing with the open triangle.

[ej002]

Thanks for backing up my point with that Video Joe. I don't see any rolling there. Left elbow could be in a cast and that Hogan video would look the same. Did Hogan put sunblock on the underbelly of his right forearm when he practiced? He should have.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338325738' post='4996152']
Thanks for backing up my point with that Video Joe. I don't see any rolling there. Left elbow could be in a cast and that Hogan video would look the same. Did Hogan put sunblock on the underbelly of his right forearm when he practiced? He should have.
[/quote]

At :35, it's already vertical - no sunblock needed. He closes the triangle HARD through impact with his shoulders. He's not trying to keep it open like T says.

[ej002]

Well its all relative and I never saw a right arm showing more underbelly. Where does the magic right elbow come from? From that position that big blonde dummy is showing everyone. IT stays that way until deep, unlike every other golfer out there.

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338324474' post='4996042']
Okay since nobody wants to have fun at Tee's expense, I will go first.

Tee is about as dumb as MOE NORMAN. What a bunch of idiots. If Moe was on this site, we should just boo him away for being as idiotic as TeeAce:[attachment=1185852:moephoto.jpg]



There is obviously rolling going on there. There is obviously supination and pronation and all kinds of "ation" going on...
[/quote]
That is not a real swing from Moe.He is demontrating what he feels.Look at his clubface.It is exaggeratedly open.If he wants to hit a straight shot from this position,he better supinate.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338352580' post='4998852']
Well its all relative and I never saw a right arm showing more underbelly. Where does the magic right elbow come from? From that position that big blonde dummy is showing everyone. IT stays that way until deep, unlike every other golfer out there.
[/quote]

If Hogan's sets up closer to the ball than most relative to his height, with low hands given his fully uncocked L wrist, with his head never backing out as in fact it lowers a bit, he is never humping the goat and with a very fast body turn/pivot, do you think it is possible for his R elbow to move farther from his torso/hip/stomach?

That R elbow close to the stomach/hip is a function of his grip and setup...

People trying to get that R elbow in close and bent is doing so because if they don't the L wrist will be releasing/uncocking way too soon and too fast...geeez...figure these out PLEASE...

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338361418' post='4999166']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338352580' post='4998852']
Well its all relative and I never saw a right arm showing more underbelly. Where does the magic right elbow come from? From that position that big blonde dummy is showing everyone. IT stays that way until deep, unlike every other golfer out there.
[/quote]

If Hogan's sets up closer to the ball than most relative to his height, with low hands given his fully uncocked L wrist, with his head never backing out as in fact it lowers a bit, he is never humping the goat and with a very fast body turn/pivot, do you think it is possible for his R elbow to move farther from his torso/hip/stomach?

[b]That R elbow close to the stomach/hip is a function of his grip and setup...[/b]

People trying to get that R elbow in close and bent is doing so because if they don't the L wrist will be releasing/uncocking way too soon and too fast...geeez...figure these out PLEASE...
[/quote]

Yes these are crucial elements to the Hogan swing (wasn't everything?) but they did not exclusively determine how the right elbow reacted on the downswing............ I could get into a very good Hogan position at the top of the backswing and then depending what I do from there the right elbow could either stay connected to my right hip, or fly away from from my body........... there's a lot that needs to happen here! (or very little depending on how you look at it ;-))

p.s. about Hogan's set-up, achieving it is crucial for me. If I don't get into a balanced and centered position over both hip sockets I know I have ZERO chance of doing his action.

[svsvincenzo]

Let me tell this...people with the same muscles firing in respect to timing and degree of strength will result to different clubhead or clubface behavior because of different length and angles of the arms, torso, legs, wrists, club, etc....

So why not figure these out first before judging that Hogan made a farking mistake about his OWN swing....darn...

Why don't you guys not believing Hogan make up your own swing and go publish your own books...would be nicer if you'll bump head on into a greyhound bus...then revamp your swing and then write the book...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338324474' post='4996042']
Okay since nobody wants to have fun at Tee's expense, I will go first.

Tee is about as dumb as MOE NORMAN. What a bunch of idiots. If Moe was on this site, we should just boo him away for being as idiotic as TeeAce:[attachment=1185852:moephoto.jpg]



There is obviously rolling going on there. There is obviously supination and pronation and all kinds of "ation" going on...
[/quote]


In Moe's case, the clubface or clubhead will automatically roll...to control that he has to do what he describes...he is thinking clubface...

Hope I'm not too idiotic to have figured that out..lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338362422' post='4999178']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338361418' post='4999166']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338352580' post='4998852']
Well its all relative and I never saw a right arm showing more underbelly. Where does the magic right elbow come from? From that position that big blonde dummy is showing everyone. IT stays that way until deep, unlike every other golfer out there.
[/quote]

If Hogan's sets up closer to the ball than most relative to his height, with low hands given his fully uncocked L wrist, with his head never backing out as in fact it lowers a bit, he is never humping the goat and with a very fast body turn/pivot, do you think it is possible for his R elbow to move farther from his torso/hip/stomach?

[b]That R elbow close to the stomach/hip is a function of his grip and setup...[/b]

People trying to get that R elbow in close and bent is doing so because if they don't the L wrist will be releasing/uncocking way too soon and too fast...geeez...figure these out PLEASE...
[/quote]

Yes these are crucial elements to the Hogan swing (wasn't everything?) but they did not exclusively determine how the right elbow reacted on the downswing............ I could get into a very good Hogan position at the top of the backswing and then depending what I do from there the right elbow could either stay connected to my right hip, or fly away from from my body........... there's a lot that needs to happen here! (or very little depending on how you look at it ;-))

p.s. about Hogan's set-up, achieving it is crucial for me. If I don't get into a balanced and centered position over both hip sockets I know I have ZERO chance of doing his action.


[/quote]

In Hogan's case, if that R elbow flies away from his body, without doing anything else different, he wouldn't hit the ball...he will whiff it...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1338333682' post='4996934']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338325738' post='4996152']
Thanks for backing up my point with that Video Joe. I don't see any rolling there. Left elbow could be in a cast and that Hogan video would look the same. Did Hogan put sunblock on the underbelly of his right forearm when he practiced? He should have.
[/quote]

At :35, it's already vertical - no sunblock needed. He closes the triangle HARD through impact with his shoulders. He's not trying to keep it open like T says.
[/quote]


I think it's DHH MJ...with the L shoulder as the focal point? What do you think? Schlee however said its the L elbow as the focal point...same o' same o' to me...technically they are both rotation of upper arm bones...L shoulder ext rot...

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338352580' post='4998852']
Well its all relative and I never saw a right arm showing more underbelly. Where does the magic right elbow come from? From that position that big blonde dummy is showing everyone. IT stays that way until deep, unlike every other golfer out there.
[/quote]

[sup]<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/W8N-N4FEoMY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/sup][size="2"]<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G4DCZuAj5Mg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/size]

[size="2"]Please check out this video of Tiger Woods and pay particular attention to how he drops his head, loses his spine angle, and how his arms get disconnected from the body.......[/size]

[size="2"]Also really study what happens to his hips at[b] 0.16 - 0.18 [/b]and compare this to the Hogan video............ there are some major differences in their transitions...... Tiger is throwing a spear from above his shoulder down to the ground just in front of him, and Hogan is swinging a baseball bat.[/size]

[size="2"](btw I just fully realised how much technically better Tiger's swings are with his mid-short irons than with his driver[/size][size="2"]. Anybody else notice this? I'm starting to become of the opinion that the 'modern' swing is fantastic for the short to mid game, but average for accuracy in the long game (though good for power). Whereas the swings of Hogan, Snead, Trevino, Player, Knudson etc were fantastic for consistency of the long game. Each style suited how the game was played during their eras.)[/size]

[nicebutdim]

If Hogan's sets up closer to the ball than most relative to his height, with low hands given his fully uncocked L wrist, with his head never backing out as in fact it lowers a bit, he is never humping the goat and with a very fast body turn/pivot, do you think it is possible for his R elbow to move farther from his torso/hip/stomach?

 

That R elbow close to the stomach/hip is a function of his grip and setup...

 

People trying to get that R elbow in close and bent is doing so because if they don't the L wrist will be releasing/uncocking way too soon and too fast...geeez...figure these out PLEASE...

 

Yes these are crucial elements to the Hogan swing (wasn't everything?) but they did not exclusively determine how the right elbow reacted on the downswing............ I could get into a very good Hogan position at the top of the backswing and then depending what I do from there the right elbow could either stay connected to my right hip, or fly away from from my body........... there's a lot that needs to happen here! (or very little depending on how you look at it ;-))

 

p.s. about Hogan's set-up, achieving it is crucial for me. If I don't get into a balanced and centered position over both hip sockets I know I have ZERO chance of doing his action.

 

 

 

In Hogan's case, if that R elbow flies away from his body, without doing anything else different, he wouldn't hit the ball...he will whiff it...

 

Sure, he'd be swinging beyond the ball............ (but he could set up the ball further away )

 

If the right elbow flies out, to make contact he'd have to lose his spine angle and stand up to give himself room and probably even snap his left leg straight at impact........... 'modern' swing here I come.

 

My point is that a lot can happen in the pivot and transition that isn't nearly 100% determined by grip and set up.

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338353215' post='4998884']That is not a real swing from Moe.He is demontrating what he feels.Look at his clubface.It is exaggeratedly open.If he wants to hit a straight shot from this position,he better supinate.
[/quote]

Duh... are you sure? LOL

NO SH*T! It a picture of him describing a feel. There is also a video of him describing something him and Hogan both do. I am too lazy to dig it up for you guys, but he basically says that this picture is the feel, but that he (Moe) couldn't do it like Hogan. Hogan was "so strong, he could hold that position later than anyone".

Mizuno- I agree with you, the triangle closes, but it is delayed. Because of intent, the high left and the super pitch elbow. There is no intentional arm rolling, actually I don't see much of any rolling.

You guys can go on thinking what you want that Hogan rolled is arms over. But it is impossible with the way his left arm exits from dtl view and with how deep his right elbow gets into pitch. Any squaring of the face is a reaction to his pivot and forces of physics, not a concious manipulation.

HG101 - when did you become "svsvincenzo"? Are you sure you name isn't blake burleson? Hogan's own words "swing like a baseball bat" - he also gave lessons telling people to swing like a bat and keep making lower plane swings until you get to the ball. There is no manipulative rolling in bat swing. If he wanted to roll his arms why would he strap them up with belts? [i]geeez figure this out PLEASE!!![/i]


This is all I am going to say. The original poster of this thread said that SNEAD, Hogan's rival and closest competitor, said that Hogan never let the hands turn over.

I just posted a picture of Moe, and he basically is saying and describing the same thing.

Both of these guys are wrong right? Tee, wherever you are, you are in good company with these two other idiots, Snead and Moe.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338385252' post='5000004']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338353215' post='4998884']That is not a real swing from Moe.He is demontrating what he feels.Look at his clubface.It is exaggeratedly open.If he wants to hit a straight shot from this position,he better supinate.
[/quote]

Duh... are you sure? LOL

NO SH*T! It a picture of him describing a feel. There is also a video of him describing something him and Hogan both do. I am too lazy to dig it up for you guys, but he basically says that this picture is the feel, but that he (Moe) couldn't do it like Hogan. Hogan was "so strong, he could hold that position later than anyone".

Mizuno- I agree with you, the triangle closes, but it is delayed. Because of intent, the high left and the super pitch elbow. [b]There is no intentional arm rolling, actually I don't see much of any rolling.

You guys can go on thinking what you want that Hogan rolled is arms over. But it is impossible with the way his left arm exits from dtl view and with how deep his right elbow gets into pitch. [u]Any squaring of the face is a reaction to his pivot and forces of physics, not a concious manipulation.[/u][/b]

HG101 - when did you become "svsvincenzo"? Are you sure you name isn't blake burleson? Hogan's own words "swing like a baseball bat" - he also gave lessons telling people to swing like a bat and keep making lower plane swings until you get to the ball. There is no manipulative rolling in bat swing. If he wanted to roll his arms why would he strap them up with belts? [i]geeez figure this out PLEASE!!![/i]


This is all I am going to say. The original poster of this thread said that SNEAD, Hogan's rival and closest competitor, said that Hogan never let the hands turn over.

I just posted a picture of Moe, and he basically is saying and describing the same thing.

Both of these guys are wrong right? Tee, wherever you are, you are in good company with these two other idiots, Snead and Moe.
[/quote]

I see you have a pretty good idea of what you're talking about.

However Hogan did bow his wrist into impact, although he didn't flip his hands............ how much is down to his awesome pivot and how much was a slight conscious manipulation is up for debate, though Hogan knew what his hand position at impact should be precisely.

Spot on with the baseball comment! Tiger Woods is throwing a spear from his shoulder down to the ground in front of him, whilst Hogan is swinging the club around his body.

[ej002]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338387549' post='5000206']I see you have a pretty good idea of what you're talking about.

However [b]Hogan did bow his wrist into impact[/b], although he didn't flip his hands............ how much is down to his awesome pivot and how much was a slight conscious manipulation is up for debate, though Hogan knew what his hand position at impact should be precisely.

Spot on with the baseball comment! Tiger Woods is throwing a spear from his shoulder down to the ground in front of him, whilst Hogan is swinging the club around his body.
[/quote]
Or was he simply ulnar deviating?

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338387723' post='5000224']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338387549' post='5000206']I see you have a pretty good idea of what you're talking about.

However [b]Hogan did bow his wrist into impact[/b], although he didn't flip his hands............ how much is down to his awesome pivot and how much was a slight conscious manipulation is up for debate, though Hogan knew what his hand position at impact should be precisely.

Spot on with the baseball comment! Tiger Woods is throwing a spear from his shoulder down to the ground in front of him, whilst Hogan is swinging the club around his body.
[/quote]
Or was he simply ulnar deviating?
[/quote]

Very good point......... in a slow motion swing it feels like a manipulated bowing, but in a full speed motion this could be what very well happens.

Actually after taking half a dozens swings of the club with the correct transition I think this is probably the case......... and in many ways the right hand seems more active ("3 right hands"?).

Good suggestion!

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338385252' post='5000004']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338353215' post='4998884']That is not a real swing from Moe.He is demontrating what he feels.Look at his clubface.It is exaggeratedly open.If he wants to hit a straight shot from this position,he better supinate.
[/quote]

Duh... are you sure? LOL

NO SH*T! It a picture of him describing a feel. There is also a video of him describing something him and Hogan both do. I am too lazy to dig it up for you guys, but he basically says that this picture is the feel, but that he (Moe) couldn't do it like Hogan. Hogan was "so strong, he could hold that position later than anyone".

Mizuno- I agree with you, the triangle closes, but it is delayed. Because of intent, the high left and the super pitch elbow. There is no intentional arm rolling, actually I don't see much of any rolling.

[/quote]
Not sure what your point is posting a ridiculously exaggerated pose from Moe that does not come close to resembling his real swing.Maybe Moe was trying to demonstrate how to lay the club off before coming into impact.Who knows.

You agree that the triangle closes late.I agree with that.The problem is Tapio is saying the triangle keeps on opening through impact.It never closes.Maybe you should understand EXACTLY what he is saying before you decide to be his attorney.

[tembolo1284]

We need Teeace to join this conversation.

[dap]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1338389262' post='5000346']
We need Teeace to join this conversation.
[/quote]
Tee is having more than enough fun trading insults and personal attacks at another forum.LOL

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338389042' post='5000336']Not sure what your point is posting a ridiculously exaggerated pose from Moe that does not come close to resembling his real swing.Maybe Moe was trying to demonstrate how to lay the club off before coming into impact.Who knows.

You agree that the triangle closes late.I agree with that.The problem is Tapio is saying the triangle keeps on opening through impact.It never closes.Maybe you should understand EXACTLY what he is saying before you decide to be his attorney.
[/quote]

It closes enough to get to the ball. By no means is it a roll. The only way it wouldn't close if he was hitting a belt high fast ball. But his plane is so flat that is as close to a fastball as possible. Right arm reeks of baseball. Like I keep saying its all relative. But guys with stronger grips, there may be even less closing. Look at that picture of Sadlowski I posted months ago... In that sense, I think Tee could be right, if in fact he is saying what you say. I am not convinced he has really meant that or meant for his words to be interpreted that way.

No lying though, there is video of Moe saying exactly what I wrote with respect Hogan and that position.

My point was not to be Tee's attorney, he has not paid my retainer, so ... My point was to put a second well known ball striker's opinion up there.

So right now, from my perspective there are 2 guys with very similar opinions talking about the same thing.

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338390752' post='5000506']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338389042' post='5000336']Not sure what your point is posting a ridiculously exaggerated pose from Moe that does not come close to resembling his real swing.Maybe Moe was trying to demonstrate how to lay the club off before coming into impact.Who knows.

You agree that the triangle closes late.I agree with that.The problem is Tapio is saying the triangle keeps on opening through impact.It never closes.Maybe you should understand EXACTLY what he is saying before you decide to be his attorney.
[/quote]

It closes enough to get to the ball. By no means is it a roll. The only way it wouldn't close if he was hitting a belt high fast ball. But his plane is so flat that is as close to a fastball as possible. Right arm reeks of baseball. Like I keep saying its all relative. But guys with stronger grips, there may be even less closing. Look at that picture of Sadlowski I posted months ago... In that sense, I think Tee could be right, if in fact he is saying what you say. I am not convinced he has really meant that or meant for his words to be interpreted that way.

No lying though, there is video of Moe saying exactly what I wrote with respect Hogan and that position.

My point was not to be Tee's attorney, he has not paid my retainer, so ... My point was to put a second well known ball striker's opinion up there.

So right now, from my perspective there are 2 guys with very similar opinions talking about the same thing.
[/quote]
Which two guys?Hogan never said he pronated through impact.He said he supinated.

Oh and by the way,Tapio stole his ideas from a poster in a Finnish forum.It's not even his.

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338391396' post='5000580']
Which two guys?Hogan never said he pronated through impact.He said he supinated.

Oh and by the way,Tapio stole his ideas from a poster in a Finnish forum.It's not even his.
[/quote]

Snead and Moe... I am saying that MOE is saying basically the same thing as Snead. And I guess the something SIMILAR to some Swedish dudes.

[dap]

Here is the Coleman video where Hogan is demonstrating his famous slow motion swing.If you look at 2.05 in this video,Hogan sure does look like he supinates and shuts the triangle through impact.Nothing like that ridiculously exaggerated pose of Moe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p56EGLiKnBA

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338391864' post='5000630']
Here is the Coleman video where Hogan is demonstrating his famous slow motion swing.If you look at 2.05 in this video,Hogan sure does look like he supinates and shuts the triangle through impact.Nothing like that ridiculously exaggerated pose of Moe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p56EGLiKnBA
[/quote]


Right... he just does the ridiculous Moe move until the impact zone, and flips it right? That is your interpretation of the concentration drill? It can possibly be that he INTENDS to hold it wide open all the way down, and at the bottom he flips it in the drill to simiulate force closing the club face? There is no centripital force in the drill, of course he has to close it, or else he would look like a total goof.

My point is that there is no way he would hold the face that far open in HIS drill, if he intended to roll the face. He is intending to keep it open as long as possible. NOT hold off, just keep it open as long as possible.

You are a smart guy, you surely cannot believe the greatest ballstriker of all time, held the face wide open and then waited, wait, wait wait til the last secon then manually closed the face?

When the shaft is facing 730 on a clock, the head is about to hit the ground and it is WIDE open, looks identical to Moe IMO.