Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338392625' post='5000720']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338391864' post='5000630']
Here is the Coleman video where Hogan is demonstrating his famous slow motion swing.If you look at 2.05 in this video,Hogan sure does look like he supinates and shuts the triangle through impact.Nothing like that ridiculously exaggerated pose of Moe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p56EGLiKnBA
[/quote]


Right... he just does the ridiculous Moe move until the impact zone, and flips it right? That is your interpretation of the concentration drill? It can possibly be that he INTENDS to hold it wide open all the way down, and at the bottom he flips it in the drill to simiulate force closing the club face? There is no centripital force in the drill, of course he has to close it, or else he would look like a total goof.

My point is that there is no way he would hold the face that far open in HIS drill, if he intended to roll the face. He is intending to keep it open as long as possible. NOT hold off, just keep it open as long as possible.

You are a smart guy, you surely cannot believe the greatest ballstriker of all time, held the face wide open and then waited, wait, wait wait til the last secon then manually closed the face?

When the shaft is facing 730 on a clock, the head is about to hit the ground and it is WIDE open, looks identical to Moe IMO.
[/quote]
He has to close it from a wide open position to square the face.Whether he does it intentionally or not is another matter.You are saying the clubface closes automatically due to centripetal forces.That is entirely your opinion unless you can prove it.There are hundreds of thousands of open face slicers that says differently.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338391690' post='5000604']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338391396' post='5000580']
Which two guys?Hogan never said he pronated through impact.He said he supinated.

Oh and by the way,Tapio stole his ideas from a poster in a Finnish forum.It's not even his.
[/quote]

Snead and Moe... I am saying that MOE is saying basically the same thing as Snead. And I guess the something SIMILAR to some Swedish dudes.
[/quote]

what Swedish dudes?!?!

[hoganfan924]

Centripetal force and axial torque about the left arm due to him coming in from a shallow plane. Those thousands of open faced slicers are such because they come in too steep. Here's the science:

http://people.stfx.ca/smackenz/swingplane.html

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338393551' post='5000824']He has to close it from a wide open position to square the face.Whether he does it intentionally or not is another matter.You are saying the clubface closes automatically due to centripetal forces.That is entirely your opinion unless you can prove it.There are hundreds of thousands of open face slicers that says differently.
[/quote]

Now I see why Tee gets so easily pissed. You throw out red herrings. The open face slicers (a) do not have Hogan's baddass pivot, (b) don't attack from the inside, (c) and generally their arms are disconnected. Open face slicers have nothing to do with this conversation and you know it.

The face has the ability to close on its own. I have felt it, seen it, done, do it, know it... everybody knows this.

Tembs- think i meant Finnish Dudes.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338393820' post='5000864']
Centripetal force and axial torque about the left arm due to him coming in from a shallow plane. Those thousands of open faced slicers are such because they come in too steep. Here's the science:

[url="http://people.stfx.ca/smackenz/swingplane.html"]http://people.stfx.c...swingplane.html[/url]
[/quote]


thanks for the link sir.

[dap]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338393820' post='5000864']
Centripetal force and axial torque about the left arm due to him coming in from a shallow plane. Those thousands of open faced slicers are such because they come in too steep. Here's the science:

http://people.stfx.ca/smackenz/swingplane.html
[/quote]
I am not certain if that model represents a good player.Most good players hand path does not travel straight down the swing plane shown in those diagrams.Poor players actually does that.The hand path of good players are more vertical.

I certainly respect MacEnzie's research but math models never match a real player.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338392625' post='5000720']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338391864' post='5000630']
Here is the Coleman video where Hogan is demonstrating his famous slow motion swing.If you look at 2.05 in this video,Hogan sure does look like he supinates and shuts the triangle through impact.Nothing like that ridiculously exaggerated pose of Moe.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p56EGLiKnBA"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=p56EGLiKnBA[/url]
[/quote]


Right... he just does the ridiculous Moe move until the impact zone, and flips it right? That is your interpretation of the concentration drill? It can possibly be that he INTENDS to hold it wide open all the way down, and at the bottom he flips it in the drill to simiulate force closing the club face? There is no centripital force in the drill, of course he has to close it, or else he would look like a total goof.

My point is that there is no way he would hold the face that far open in HIS drill, if he intended to roll the face. He is intending to keep it open as long as possible. NOT hold off, just keep it open as long as possible.

You are a smart guy, you surely cannot believe the greatest ballstriker of all time, held the face wide open and then waited, wait, wait wait til the last secon then manually closed the face?

When the shaft is facing 730 on a clock, the head is about to hit the ground and it is WIDE open, looks identical to Moe IMO.
[/quote]

Such a ridiculously good swing for a 65 year old........ truly owned.

Don't worry ej002 these guys will eventually get it. There is no timing of a release in Hogan's swing which is the beauty of it and why it was so consistent. To think that he was doing something complicated through impact that required split second timing is laughable.

Just watch that swing everybody! he pivots and swings around his body beautifully, clearing the right side, and doesn't roll his hands over (hitting into the heel of the right hand almost)....... just watch that right leg/hip action.

Best way for anyone to figure it out is to try and imitate it......... if you can simulate Hogan's ballstriking and accuracy using some convoluted arm action through impact then well done to you........ but I highly doubt it.

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338394075' post='5000896']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338393551' post='5000824']He has to close it from a wide open position to square the face.Whether he does it intentionally or not is another matter.You are saying the clubface closes automatically due to centripetal forces.That is entirely your opinion unless you can prove it.There are hundreds of thousands of open face slicers that says differently.
[/quote]

Now I see why Tee gets so easily pissed. You throw out red herrings. The open face slicers (a) do not have Hogan's baddass pivot, (b) don't attack from the inside, (c) and generally their arms are disconnected. Open face slicers have nothing to do with this conversation and you know it.

The face has the ability to close on its own. I have felt it, seen it, done, do it, know it... everybody knows this.

Tembs- think i meant Finnish Dudes.
[/quote]
Tee gets pissed because he can't stand anyone disagreeing with him and I can tell you I am not the only one.

Do you actually play with a weak grip like Hogan?I will agree to an extent that if you play with a strong grip,it doesn't require much wrist action to square the face.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338394677' post='5000942']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338393820' post='5000864']
Centripetal force and axial torque about the left arm due to him coming in from a shallow plane. Those thousands of open faced slicers are such because they come in too steep. Here's the science:

http://people.stfx.ca/smackenz/swingplane.html
[/quote]
I am not certain if that model represents a good player.Most good players hand path does not travel straight down the swing plane shown in those diagrams.Poor players actually does that.[b]The hand path of good players are more vertical[/b].

I certainly respect MacEnzie's research but math models never match a real player.
[/quote]

I which case, the good players you cite would have even more axial torque about the left arm than what is shown in the Mackenzie model simulation.

[dap]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338395813' post='5001066']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338394677' post='5000942']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338393820' post='5000864']
Centripetal force and axial torque about the left arm due to him coming in from a shallow plane. Those thousands of open faced slicers are such because they come in too steep. Here's the science:

http://people.stfx.ca/smackenz/swingplane.html
[/quote]
I am not certain if that model represents a good player.Most good players hand path does not travel straight down the swing plane shown in those diagrams.Poor players actually does that.[b]The hand path of good players are more vertical[/b].

I certainly respect MacEnzie's research but math models never match a real player.
[/quote]

I which case, the good players you cite would have even more axial torque about the left arm than what is shown in the Mackenzie model simulation.
[/quote]
Is that from MacEnzie or you?

Plenty of good players start their downswing from above the plane.Not every player on tour is one plane.In fact,I would say most are two plane with high hands at the top and the one plane guys don't dominate the ballstriking stats.

[hoganfan924]

[quote]Is that from MacEnzie or you?

Plenty of good players start their downswing from above the plane.Not every player on tour is one plane.In fact,I would say most are two plane with high hands at the top and the one plane guys don't dominate the ballstriking stats.[/quote]


The greater the differential between the plane that the club is traveling on and the left arm/hand plane, the greater the torque. It's the physics. Look at his free body diagram.

Almost ever great player that is steep at the top shallows the shaft in transition. MacKenzie shows WHY they do this, whether they consciously understand it or not. Furyk and Price are 2 great examples.

His FBD and simulation videos goes to show why most good players struggle to keep the face open and most poor players struggle to close it. Just one piece of the puzzle.

[Wknd_Warrior]

I've played with a weak trailing hand most of my life. I have no idea why anyone thinks this makes it hard to "square the club face". Whatever wrist lag you have with whatever timing you have and your tendancy to return to address...

What you do get IMO is an easier on plane swing and hing up through the back swing. With a stong trialing hand it feels like I'm flipping the wrist making a back swing, and then the timing of the wrist get's tricky at the bottom. With a weaker trailing hand it's just more of an extension down to impact.

I'll say I think a weak leading hand can cause weird slice stuff just because it get's to a point where it can jam the body through impact, although Trevino played this way.

[dap]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338397071' post='5001182']
[quote]Is that from MacEnzie or you?

Plenty of good players start their downswing from above the plane.Not every player on tour is one plane.In fact,I would say most are two plane with high hands at the top and the one plane guys don't dominate the ballstriking stats.[/quote]


The greater the differential between the plane that the club is traveling on and the left arm/hand plane, the greater the torque. It's the physics. Look at his free body diagram.

Almost ever great player that is steep at the top shallows the shaft in transition. MacKenzie shows WHY they do this, whether they consciously understand it or not. Furyk and Price are 2 great examples.

His FBD and simulation videos goes to show why most good players struggle to keep the face open and most poor players struggle to close it. Just one piece of the puzzle.
[/quote]
Mandrin who posts at BManz does a lot of math modelling and even he admits math models have limitations.

Here is a quote from that study from MacEnzie himself...

"While an attempt was made to account for the muscular contribution from a trailing arm,the mass and moment of inertia of the trailing arm was not accounted for and should be noted as a limitation of the model."

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338395330' post='5001018']
Do you actually play with a weak grip like Hogan? I will agree to an extent that if you play with a strong grip,it doesn't require much wrist action to square the face.
[/quote]

I am a lefty, but if I played right handed my grip would be a strong left hand and a neutral-weakish right hand depending on your definition.

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338398264' post='5001308']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338395330' post='5001018']
Do you actually play with a weak grip like Hogan? I will agree to an extent that if you play with a strong grip,it doesn't require much wrist action to square the face.
[/quote]

I am a lefty, but if I played right handed my grip would be a strong left hand and a neutral-weakish right hand depending on your definition.
[/quote]
ej,next time you go to the range,try Hogan's leading hand grip and then come back and tell me you don't need more hand action to square the face.

[attachment=1187338:ab6fe2b2f1ae5ee9_large.jpg]

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338363222' post='4999202']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1338333682' post='4996934']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338325738' post='4996152']
Thanks for backing up my point with that Video Joe. I don't see any rolling there. Left elbow could be in a cast and that Hogan video would look the same. Did Hogan put sunblock on the underbelly of his right forearm when he practiced? He should have.
[/quote]

At :35, it's already vertical - no sunblock needed. He closes the triangle HARD through impact with his shoulders. He's not trying to keep it open like T says.
[/quote]


I think it's DHH MJ...with the L shoulder as the focal point? What do you think? Schlee however said its the L elbow as the focal point...same o' same o' to me...technically they are both rotation of upper arm bones...L shoulder ext rot...
[/quote]

Right, he rolls the entire left arm/club(TGM left flying wedge) with the left shoulder. His left elbow bends which, perhaps, gives the impression that the left forearm alone is rolling, but it's the whole left arm along with the club that's being rolled. HF924 likens it to the left-handed top-spin lob in tennis.

[drewspin]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338397071' post='5001182']
[quote]Is that from MacEnzie or you?

Plenty of good players start their downswing from above the plane.Not every player on tour is one plane.In fact,I would say most are two plane with high hands at the top and the one plane guys don't dominate the ballstriking stats.[/quote]


The greater the differential between the plane that the club is traveling on and the left arm/hand plane, the greater the torque. It's the physics. Look at his free body diagram.

Almost ever great player that is steep at the top shallows the shaft in transition. MacKenzie shows WHY they do this, whether they consciously understand it or not. Furyk and Price are 2 great examples.

His FBD and simulation videos goes to show why most good players struggle to keep the face open and most poor players struggle to close it. Just one piece of the puzzle.
[/quote]

This animation shows why a cup in the left wrist may be effective.

The armpath on the way down though is definitely far too horizontal through impact to resemble Hogan. Also the shoulders in the model return only to square.

To see how much axial rotation is needed to return to square (or almost square), you need to account for the starting positions of the arms (esp. left hand grip strength), then you also need to account for how "perpendicularish" (an SVSvincenzo term) the angle is between the shaft and Hogan's left arm. You also need to account for how open your shoulders have rotated at impact.

Hopefully Sasho will continue working on his great work and include in his models and animations wrist joints that allow a range of ulnar and radial deviation.

[dap]

ej,here is Hogan's grip when he suffered hooks.Looks like modern neutral in the sense that most pros these these use a stronger left hand than Hogan.

[attachment=1187344:131b39ceb1a36922_large.jpg]

[ej002]

I have done it before, alot and I don't need more hand action, just more pivot action.

[svsvincenzo]

@ej

So you think Hogan with a weak grip wouldn't supinate from this point onwards?

[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338398684' post='5001336']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338398264' post='5001308']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338395330' post='5001018']
Do you actually play with a weak grip like Hogan? I will agree to an extent that if you play with a strong grip,it doesn't require much wrist action to square the face.
[/quote]

I am a lefty, but if I played right handed my grip would be a strong left hand and a neutral-weakish right hand depending on your definition.
[/quote]
ej,next time you go to the range,try Hogan's leading hand grip and then come back and tell me you don't need more hand action to square the face.

[attachment=1187338:ab6fe2b2f1ae5ee9_large.jpg]
[/quote]

I use that grip. Every night I come into a late release with the pitch elbow well under the left arm(open triangle), and just after release, snap roll the entire triangle through impact with the shoulders and [b]no hand action at all[/b]. I get a nice controlled fade.

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338400192' post='5001550']
I have done it before, alot and I don't need more hand action, just more pivot action.
[/quote]
Can you show us?

[drewspin]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338400224' post='5001562']
@ej

So you think Hogan with a weak grip wouldn't supinate from this point onwards?

[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]
[/quote]

Of course, he has to supinate. BUT the REAL question is whether the INTENT is to supinate from there, or let the THRUST of the right hand and the centripetal acceleration of the pivot create enough CCW axial rotation to square it up.

5L is at best inconsistent.

[ej002]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338400224' post='5001562']
@ej

So you think Hogan with a weak grip wouldn't supinate from this point onwards?

[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]
[/quote]

Actively, no. He already is in position to hit, all he needs to do is pivot and let it happen.


[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338400450' post='5001598']
Can you show us?
[/quote]
SEnd me a camera. And what point would it make? You would see my right arm supinate a bit as a result of the torques HF mentioned and tell me that I am causing it. Why don't you try hitting some balls with the face 30* open and using your body to square the face, film it, and thank me.

[tembolo1284]

wow...hogan was a hairy dude.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338394677' post='5000942']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1338393820' post='5000864']
Centripetal force and axial torque about the left arm due to him coming in from a shallow plane. Those thousands of open faced slicers are such because they come in too steep. Here's the science:

[url="http://people.stfx.ca/smackenz/swingplane.html"]http://people.stfx.c...swingplane.html[/url]
[/quote]
I am not certain if that model represents a good player.Most good players hand path does not travel straight down the swing plane shown in those diagrams.Poor players actually does that.The hand path of good players are more vertical.

I certainly respect MacEnzie's research but math models never match a real player.
[/quote]


+1.

Sasho didn't consider other factors that can affect the torque that causes the clubface to close...the strongness of the grip, how far/near you stand from the ball, the shoulder turn plane, the spine angle and changes on it during the swing, hand path as pointed out by dap, the amount or lack of pronation in the L hand....and there is 1 big other factor that closes the face big time...and Moe Norman has it...so ej I'm at a loss why you are bringing up Moe to get to Hogan...

I really couldn't accept or understand why people not only disregard but even adopt the complete opposite of what the man himself said...

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338400224' post='5001562']
@ej

So you think Hogan with a weak grip wouldn't supinate from this point onwards?

[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]
[/quote]

why would he need to?

yes he supinates a tiny bit due to the action of his pivot and weight of the club, but Hogan would really have been focusing on keeping the right palm firm through impact.......... and Hogan's main area of concern at that point in the photo, and throughout the downswing, is clearing and swinging smoothly around his right side (knee, hip, shoulder)

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1338400678' post='5001624']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338400224' post='5001562']
@ej

So you think Hogan with a weak grip wouldn't supinate from this point onwards?

[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]
[/quote]

Of course, he has to supinate. BUT the REAL question is whether the INTENT is to supinate from there, or let the THRUST of the right hand and the centripetal acceleration of the pivot create enough CCW axial rotation to square it up.

5L is at best inconsistent.
[/quote]

I may agree with your 1st sentence, but the 2nd totally disagree. No inconsistency at all.

Hogan didn't say you do the supination using the R hand. He said the L wrist supinates. That R hand is just trying to be kept bent as long as possible all the way as Schlee said. Re this R wrist trying to be kept bent...why? The more that R wrist is bent, the more Hogan can turn and supinate that L wrist without closing the face too early and hook the ball... Why the bent R wrist? I am sure he didn't tell you that..

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338401034' post='5001656']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338400224' post='5001562']
@ej

So you think Hogan with a weak grip wouldn't supinate from this point onwards?

[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]
[/quote]

Actively, no. He already is in position to hit, all he needs to do is pivot and let it happen.


[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338400450' post='5001598']
Can you show us?
[/quote]
SEnd me a camera. And what point would it make? You would see my right arm supinate a bit as a result of the torques HF mentioned and tell me that I am causing it. Why don't you try hitting some balls with the face 30* open and using your body to square the face, film it, and thank me.
[/quote]
Even touring pros only manged to get their shoulders open on average about 12 degrees.If you are able to get more than that,I am bettin that you are coming OTT to do it.You think it's that easy to just get more rotation without something else going to craps?

If you can really use Hogan's weak grip and just use more rotation,then why don't you do it all the time and tell everyone you cracked Hogan?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338401034' post='5001656']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338400224' post='5001562']
@ej

So you think Hogan with a weak grip wouldn't supinate from this point onwards?

[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]
[/quote]

Actively, no. He already is in position to hit, all he needs to do is pivot and let it happen.


[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338400450' post='5001598']
Can you show us?
[/quote]
SEnd me a camera. And what point would it make? You would see my right arm supinate a bit as a result of the torques HF mentioned and tell me that I am causing it. Why don't you try hitting some balls with the face 30* open and using your body to square the face, film it, and thank me.
[/quote]

You realize that the back of Hogan's L hand is square with his shoulders at that pic? If he didn't supinate, he will shank the ball big time...