Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[ej002]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338401349' post='5001706']If you can really use Hogan's weak grip and just use more rotation,then why don't you do it all the time and tell everyone you cracked Hogan?
[/quote]

I dont have Hogans pivot. So I cant. I never said the arm doesn't supinate, but is a just a result and, not the cause, of the face closing. The face is going to shut.

Vincenzo - I never said you need Moe to get to Hogan. It is an observation that Moe MADE ABOUT HOGAN. It is the same observation Snead made. I never posted up Moe's swing and said they are the same. Thats the point.

[dap]

I think it's also a myth that Hogan had a lot of rotation at impact.I don't believe Hogan was more open at impact than any other typical touring pro.It's not like his shoulders were 45 degrees open at impact.

[attachment=1187380:Ben Hogan dtl.wmv.mp4_snapshot_00.04_2012.05.31_02.30.43.jpg]

[ej002]

What does his openness have to do with anything right now?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338402698' post='5001866']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338401349' post='5001706']If you can really use Hogan's weak grip and just use more rotation,then why don't you do it all the time and tell everyone you cracked Hogan?
[/quote]

I dont have Hogans pivot. So I cant. I never said the arm doesn't supinate, but is a just a result and, not the cause, of the face closing. The face is going to shut.

Vincenzo - I never said you need Moe to get to Hogan. It is an observation that Moe MADE ABOUT HOGAN. It is the same observation Snead made. I never posted up Moe's swing and said they are the same. Thats the point.
[/quote]


Why do you edit the username on the posts? What are you trying to impress the public? I am not Dap. Why can't you believe and accept the fact that more than 1 person totally disagree with you? There is a reason why people on higher pay grades are fewer you know...

In Hogan's case, the face is not going to shut if he didn't supinate intentionally. He designed everything so he can pour on and use all his maximum power into the DS. That is basically what he said in the '55 Secret article. Why can't you accept what he said EJ? Darn..its right before your eyes...lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338403455' post='5001954']
What does his openness have to do with anything right now?
[/quote]


Are you Teeace?...lol

Dap is saying Hogan is not as open as many think. In that pic Dap posted, you will note that the camera is not even exactly DTL, the camera is bit to the left...so if you imagine the camera to be exactly DTL, Hogan's shoulders will be square...how can it be that open if his shoulders are turning more upright than horizontal?

[Dr.John]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1338400678' post='5001624']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338400224' post='5001562']
@ej

So you think Hogan with a weak grip wouldn't supinate from this point onwards?

[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]
[/quote]

Of course, he has to supinate. BUT the REAL question is whether the INTENT is to supinate from there, or let the THRUST of the right hand and the centripetal acceleration of the pivot create enough CCW axial rotation to square it up.

5L is at best inconsistent.
[/quote]


Good analysis, but I don't believe he thrusted with the right hand at all. Would have been impossible, IMHO, to actively thrust with the right hand/arm while still having a bent right hand, bent right elbow, and elbow on right hip (or damn near close to it) at impact.. Just my opinion of course

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338403455' post='5001954']
What does his openness have to do with anything right now?
[/quote]
Impact is the moment of truth.

You are saying Hogan used his pivot to square the face with a weak grip.I just showed you Hogan's shoulders are not that open in relation to other pros.So how is Hogan using his pivot only to square up a face with a weak grip?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338403883' post='5002014']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338403455' post='5001954']
What does his openness have to do with anything right now?
[/quote]
Impact is the moment of truth.

You are saying Hogan used his pivot to square the face with a weak grip.I just showed you Hogan's shoulders are not that open in relation to other pros.So how is Hogan using his pivot only to square up a face with a weak grip?
[/quote]


Exactly. Why you have to further explain that perplexes me....

[dap]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338404049' post='5002036']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338403883' post='5002014']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338403455' post='5001954']
What does his openness have to do with anything right now?
[/quote]
Impact is the moment of truth.

You are saying Hogan used his pivot to square the face with a weak grip.I just showed you Hogan's shoulders are not that open in relation to other pros.So how is Hogan using his pivot only to square up a face with a weak grip?
[/quote]


Exactly. Why you have to further explain that perplexes me....
[/quote]
I need to explain it in detail otherwise I will be accused of another red herring.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338403014' post='5001908']
I think it's also a myth that Hogan had a lot of rotation at impact.I don't believe Hogan was more open at impact than any other typical touring pro.It's not like his shoulders were 45 degrees open at impact.

[/quote]

Not right at impact, but just after, they are very open. Stop this at :13 with the ball a blur - 12" or so from the clubface. The hips and shoulders are wide open. He snap rolls his shoulders HARD through impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59-7oC8E5U

[dap]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1338404446' post='5002090']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338403014' post='5001908']
I think it's also a myth that Hogan had a lot of rotation at impact.I don't believe Hogan was more open at impact than any other typical touring pro.It's not like his shoulders were 45 degrees open at impact.

[/quote]

Not right at impact, but just after, they are very open. Stop this at :13 with the ball a blur - 12" or so from the clubface. The hips and shoulders are wide open. He snap rolls his shoulders HARD through impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59-7oC8E5U
[/quote]
It's important to capture the still right at impact.Even a 30 handicapper can get their shoulders open just after impact.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338404215' post='5002058']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338404049' post='5002036']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338403883' post='5002014']
Impact is the moment of truth.

You are saying Hogan used his pivot to square the face with a weak grip.I just showed you Hogan's shoulders are not that open in relation to other pros.So how is Hogan using his pivot only to square up a face with a weak grip?
[/quote]


Exactly. Why you have to further explain that perplexes me....
[/quote]
I need to explain it in detail otherwise I will be accused of another red herring.
[/quote]

Mizunojoe video touches on his extreme shoulder/torso rotation through and after impact.............. rotating hard around the spine, in a baseball motion.

What I think you guys are missing is that Hogan had essentially squared his hands for impact practically at the beginning of downswing........ take hogan's hand position at 9 o'clock in the downswing, which for some reason you guys perceive to be very open, and slowly rotate the body/arms to impact position............. what you'll see is that they are basically square though the club is a bit high.

As mentioned before a bit of natural [size="2"][color="#1c2837"]Ulnar Deviation[/color][/size] will sort out the extension to the ball.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338404794' post='5002118']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1338404446' post='5002090']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338403014' post='5001908']
I think it's also a myth that Hogan had a lot of rotation at impact.I don't believe Hogan was more open at impact than any other typical touring pro.It's not like his shoulders were 45 degrees open at impact.

[/quote]

Not right at impact, but just after, they are very open. Stop this at :13 with the ball a blur - 12" or so from the clubface. The hips and shoulders are wide open. He snap rolls his shoulders HARD through impact.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59-7oC8E5U"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=K59-7oC8E5U[/url]
[/quote]
It's important to capture the still right at impact.Even a 30 handicapper can get their shoulders open just after impact.
[/quote]

but not their hips and shoulders in unison............ especially the amount of clearance Hogan gets with his right hip.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1338404446' post='5002090']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338403014' post='5001908']
I think it's also a myth that Hogan had a lot of rotation at impact.I don't believe Hogan was more open at impact than any other typical touring pro.It's not like his shoulders were 45 degrees open at impact.

[/quote]

Not right at impact, but just after, they are very open. Stop this at :13 with the ball a blur - 12" or so from the clubface. The hips and shoulders are wide open. He snap rolls his shoulders HARD through impact.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59-7oC8E5U"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=K59-7oC8E5U[/url]
[/quote]


MJ, don't you think the degree of openness or squareness of Hogan's shoulders at impact is due to the ball flight he is trying to have? I think it does. I'd say shoulders are more square for a draw, more open for a fade...

Ej, why ej, why?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338405002' post='5002138']

Mizunojoe video touches on his extreme shoulder/torso rotation through and after impact.............. rotating hard around the spine, in a baseball motion.

What I think you guys are missing is that Hogan had essentially squared his hands for impact practically at the beginning of downswing........ take hogan's hand position at 9 o'clock in the downswing, which for some reason you guys perceive to be very open, and slowly rotate the body/arms to impact position............. what you'll see is that they are basically square though a bit high.

As mentioned before a bit of natural [size="2"][color="#1c2837"]Ulnar Deviation[/color][/size] will sort out the extension to the ball.
[/quote]

??????? You mean its square already on this position?

[attachment=1187498:insl01_hogan_plane.jpg]

[nicebutdim]

Hogan's shoulders weren't even close to being square at impact.................. sorry.

[drewspin]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338401815' post='5001762']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1338400678' post='5001624']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338400224' post='5001562']
@ej

So you think Hogan with a weak grip wouldn't supinate from this point onwards?

[attachment=1187350:insl01_hogan_weight.jpg]
[/quote]

Of course, he has to supinate. BUT the REAL question is whether the INTENT is to supinate from there, or let the THRUST of the right hand and the centripetal acceleration of the pivot create enough CCW axial rotation to square it up.

5L is at best inconsistent.
[/quote]

I may agree with your 1st sentence, but the 2nd totally disagree. No inconsistency at all.

Hogan didn't say you do the supination using the R hand. He said the L wrist supinates. That R hand is just trying to be kept bent as long as possible all the way as Schlee said. Re this R wrist trying to be kept bent...why? The more that R wrist is bent, the more Hogan can turn and supinate that L wrist without closing the face too early and hook the ball... Why the bent R wrist? I am sure he didn't tell you that..
[/quote]

5L says in one place "begins to supinate AT IMPACT" that emphasis is mine, BTW. That means, to me, it does not begin to supinate BEFORE impact.

Yet, in another place it says that "During this climatic part of the swing," that is, the segment where the hands are below the hips -- "the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up."

So it is inconsistent to say begins to supinate at impact, and begin to supinate before impact, to get into a "supinating position" by impact.

Also 5L says that supination explains "the most amazing shot in the modern pro's repertoire: the low-flying wedge that looks like it was skulled but which bites immediately when it hits the green and then spins itself out close to where it landed."

In my opinion that reference has more to do with the left hand/wrist in palmar flexion and the corresponding bend in the angle of the right wrist than it does supination.


Sure, keep the bend in the right wrist, and assimilate your club face to your right hand.

SVSvincenzo - Let me ask you a question about about your supination intent -- are you intending to externally rotate the left shoulder as you supinate, or not?

[svsvincenzo]

How about this one?...square already?

[attachment=1187500:hoganp6.jpg]

[ej002]

Openness only matters if we are saying that the arms don't move (supinate) at all. I never said that, ever. I only said that is possible with a strong grip, maybe.

I am saying the pivot shuts the triangle. Not Hogan shuts the triange by rolling the arms.

What Joe is saying about his shoulders squaring it up and hitting a fade is spot on. You need deep pitch elbow, a free flowing pivot, and a lot of trust. I think Joe bows the wrist/ulnar deviates/flexes, whatever you want to call that. That is cool. Stronger grip guys don't even need to do that. It gets the same job done.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338405828' post='5002216']
How about this one?...square already?

[attachment=1187500:hoganp6.jpg]

[/quote]

Apologies 9 o'clock wasn't what I meant................ yes this is the position I was referring to.

now keep the right elbow on the hip and rotate the right side so the hands reach the left hip pocket, and basically the impact position............ the clubface should be pretty square.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1338405822' post='5002214']
5L says in one place "begins to supinate AT IMPACT" that emphasis is mine, BTW. That means, to me, it does not begin to supinate BEFORE impact.

Yet, in another place it says that "During this climatic part of the swing," that is, the segment where the hands are below the hips -- "the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up."

So it is inconsistent to say begins to supinate at impact, and begin to supinate before impact, to get into a "supinating position" by impact.

Also 5L says that supination explains "the most amazing shot in the modern pro's repertoire: the low-flying wedge that looks like it was skulled but which bites immediately when it hits the green and then spins itself out close to where it landed."

In my opinion that reference has more to do with the left hand/wrist in palmar flexion and the corresponding bend in the angle of the right wrist than it does supination.


Sure, keep the bend in the right wrist, and assimilate your club face to your right hand.

SVSvincenzo - Let me ask you a question about about your supination intent -- are you intending to externally rotate the left shoulder as you supinate, or not?
[/quote]

No inconsistency I can see there. One he is referring to the word supinating as a movement. On the other he is using the word supinating as a position. That's reconcilable Drew.

You cannot supinate without at least having a flat wrist. If you supinate or roll that L wrist with a bent or cupped L wrist, you will flip all the time. And if you just palmar flex and doesn't supinate, the leading edge of the clubface will dig into the ground with a huge chunk of divot....Hogan has very shallow divots...that's why Fats was so into a big fuss about those compression drivel with huge divots...

Yes, my intent is ext rot the L shoulder...the L elbow is my focal point among the 3 hinge pins...doesn't matter, you can also choose to think L shoulder or L wrist...depends on the person...but I believe Schlee that Hogan taught him the focal point to be the L elbow...

[danattherock]

"[color=#333333][size=2]So what was it that Sam Byrd told Ben Hogan in 1945? "[/size][/color]

[color="#333333"][size="2"][left]
[/left][/size][/color]
[color="#333333"][size="2"][left]
[/left][/size][/color]
[url="http://sevam1.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-hell-is-sam-byrd.html"]http://sevam1.blogsp...s-sam-byrd.html[/url]

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1338405838' post='5002222']
Openness only matters if we are saying that the arms don't move (supinate) at all. I never said that, ever. I only said that is possible with a strong grip, maybe.

I am saying the pivot shuts the triangle. Not Hogan shuts the triange by rolling the arms.

What Joe is saying about his shoulders squaring it up and hitting a fade is spot on. You need deep pitch elbow, a free flowing pivot, and a lot of trust. I think Joe bows the wrist/ulnar deviates/flexes, whatever you want to call that. That is cool. Stronger grip guys don't even need to do that. It gets the same job done.
[/quote]

I think you guys will never truly get to see what I am saying all along if I don't tell you this one thing...it will really put things, especially this supination thing of Hogan, into a whole lot different perspective...so I've decided to tell you this, hell with the people who will get angry by posting this in public...

So here it is....I am talking about the.....flick flick...chit, no more batteries...chit....gotta sleep...

[dap]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338405816' post='5002212']
Hogan's shoulders weren't even close to being square at impact.................. sorry.
[/quote]
Nobody is saying they were square at impact.The point I am making is that Hogan was not as open at impact as a lot of people seem to make out.

Open?Yes

Out of the ordinary open like Furyk,Duval and Mahan?No

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338407312' post='5002360']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338405816' post='5002212']
Hogan's shoulders weren't even close to being square at impact.................. sorry.
[/quote]
Nobody is saying they were square at impact.The point I am making is that Hogan was not as open at impact as a lot of people seem to make out.

Open?Yes

Out of the ordinary open like Furyk,Duval and Mahan?No
[/quote]

Fair enough............

but what impresses me most about Hogan is that at and just beyond impact he has totally maintained his spine angle, and there is no stalling of the right hip, and also no snapping of the hands.

now that is pretty unique

[drewspin]

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1338406802' post='5002304']
"[color=#333333][size=2]So what was it that Sam Byrd told Ben Hogan in 1945? "[/size][/color]

[color="#333333"][size="2"][left]
[/left][/size][/color]
[color="#333333"][size="2"][left]
[/left][/size][/color]
[url="http://sevam1.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-hell-is-sam-byrd.html"]http://sevam1.blogsp...s-sam-byrd.html[/url]
[/quote]

Wozeniak has some good thoughts:

http://www.stevewozeniak.com/2007/11/golf-just-another-sport-using-a-stick/

http://www.stevewozeniak.com/2009/11/are-you-unwinding-correctly-2/

-----------------

Jules Alexander has this Hogan quote posted on his web site:

[i]Hogan claimed the left hand had two functions. First, to hold on and second not to break down. "you don't hook a ball because you have a strong right hand, you hook it because you have a weak left hand."[/i]

[nicebutdim]

"So what was it that Sam Byrd told Ben Hogan in 1945? "

 

http://sevam1.blogsp...s-sam-byrd.html

 

Wozeniak has some good thoughts:

 

http://www.stevewoze...-using-a-stick/

 

http://www.stevewoze...ng-correctly-2/

 

-----------------

 

Jules Alexander has this Hogan quote posted on his web site:

 

Hogan claimed the left hand had two functions. First, to hold on and second not to break down. "you don't hook a ball because you have a strong right hand, you hook it because you have a weak left hand."

 

 

great quote!!

 

thanks

 

 

[danattherock]

"So what was it that Sam Byrd told Ben Hogan in 1945? "

 

http://sevam1.blogsp...s-sam-byrd.html

 

Wozeniak has some good thoughts:

 

http://www.stevewoze...-using-a-stick/

 

http://www.stevewoze...ng-correctly-2/

 

-----------------

 

Jules Alexander has this Hogan quote posted on his web site:

 

Hogan claimed the left hand had two functions. First, to hold on and second not to break down. "you don't hook a ball because you have a strong right hand, you hook it because you have a weak left hand."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks man. I just recently learned of Sam Byrd and his influence on Ben Hogan.

 

 

Found out about this while researching Jimmy Ballard, whom learned from Sam Byrd.

 

 

Been improving every day since.

 

 

 

 

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1338407312' post='5002360']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1338405816' post='5002212']
Hogan's shoulders weren't even close to being square at impact.................. sorry.
[/quote]
Nobody is saying they were square at impact.The point I am making is that Hogan was not as open at impact as a lot of people seem to make out.

Open?Yes

Out of the ordinary open like Furyk,Duval and Mahan?No
[/quote]

btw Mahan isn't that open at impact.............. not sure about Duval.

Good examples would be Furyk and Mcilroy.

There's a very good reason why these two are more open than Hogan at impact.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1338407987' post='5002448']
[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1338406802' post='5002304']
"[color="#333333"][size="2"]So what was it that Sam Byrd told Ben Hogan in 1945? "[/size][/color]

[color="#333333"][size="2"][left]
[/left][/size][/color]
[color="#333333"][size="2"][left]
[/left][/size][/color]
[url="http://sevam1.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-hell-is-sam-byrd.html"]http://sevam1.blogsp...s-sam-byrd.html[/url]
[/quote]

Wozeniak has some good thoughts:

[url="http://www.stevewozeniak.com/2007/11/golf-just-another-sport-using-a-stick/"]http://www.stevewoze...-using-a-stick/[/url]

[url="http://www.stevewozeniak.com/2009/11/are-you-unwinding-correctly-2/"]http://www.stevewoze...ng-correctly-2/[/url]

-----------------

Jules Alexander has this Hogan quote posted on his web site:

[i]Hogan claimed the left hand had two functions. First, to hold on and second not to break down. "you don't hook a ball because you have a strong right hand, you hook it because you have a weak left hand."[/i]
[/quote]

Ooops...got the batteries back...lol

Great links Drew. Thank you for that.

So Sam Byrd taught Hogan the L elbow hinge and L upper arm connection...what Schlee and Slicefixer, respectively, has been saying all along...and they're related---the L elbow turn/hinge and the L upper arm connection...you can't do one without the other...IMO the root cause of supination...as Hogan said, gotta have palmar flexed L wrist...