What makes a great course?

[adamjstl]

What does everyone think?

 

I live in St. Louis, am a 2 handicap, and have two great golf buddies. One of them lives here, and one in Chicago. My friend here loves great conditioning and scenery. He is all about "wow" factor. He does not really care about strategy or shot values. He is a 5 handicap. My other friend, the Chicago guy, is all about the quality of the layout. It seems like if the course is really difficult, he automatically thinks it's really good. He thinks scenery and wow factor are merely a minor distraction. He is a scratch player.

 

My take is somewhere in the middle. I appreciate design value, scenery, conditoning, wow factor, etc. The three of us have had many discussions and disagreements about what makes or breaks a great course.

 

I've played just shy of 100 courses, including World Woods, Troon North, Limestone Springs and Farmlinks in beautiful Alabama, The Fort in Indianapolis, and Branson Creek. In total, I think 8 or 9 have cracked the top 100 public at some point.

 

So, this spring my Chicago friend calls me and says the US Amatuer qualifier is at Milwaukee Country Club, which is ranked 53rd in the entire United States. We jumped on the chance!

 

I go to Milwaukee with the expectation that this course will be the best I've ever played. By far.

 

We play our practice round with a nice guy from Florida, who is originally from the Milwaukee area. He tells me early in the round that he had to come play the course again, and in fact had planned his summer vacation around it. He is a course rater for GolfWeek also.

 

We get done with the front nine. The course is in great shape. Check that, immaculate shape. Alot of the holes, however, are holes that you would see at any nice country club anywhere in the midwest. As we walk off the 9th green, he says that if more people played the course, it would be ranked higher.

 

I literally had to refrain myself from screaming "What the hell are you talking about?" Of course I didn't say that, and reserved judgement for the time being.

 

It was odd on the back nine, as I saw the potential for several holes running alongside, over, and around the river that ran through the property, so many forgettable holes. 10 and 11 were fantastic. No doubt.

 

12 was a par 3, played over the river. But what a waste. The river was 15-18 yards short of the front edge, and thus wasn't even in play unless the player hits a disaster shot.

 

15, a long par 5, was another waste. The river ran the entire right side of the hole, but the fairway was so wide, and the trees on the right so heavy, the water wasn't even a factor.

 

16 and 17 good, tough par 4 and 3.

 

18, good, not great finisher.

 

A scenic course, but not stuning or gorgeous. Great shot values. But outdated. The qualifier was converted to a par 70, as 7 and 10 were considered par 4s that day. None of the par 3s were memorable by any standard.

 

Milwaukee C.C. was a really well-kept, pristine, challenging golf course. But it certainly had a handful or shortcomings. Was I SHOCKED that it was 53rd overall in the country.Yes.

 

My friend, however, said it was the best course the two of us had ever played. By miles.

 

So, ulimately, what makes a great course? Is it your overall impression? Is it based on a point system, rewarding an amount for conditioning, design, scenery, shot values, etc?

 

What is it?

[Frohlich]

[quote name='adamjstl' timestamp='1318312898' post='3655953']
What does everyone think?

I live in St. Louis, am a 2 handicap, and have two great golf buddies. One of them lives here, and one in Chicago. My friend here loves great conditioning and scenery. He is all about "wow" factor. He does not really care about strategy or shot values. He is a 5 handicap. My other friend, the Chicago guy, is all about the quality of the layout. It seems like if the course is really difficult, he automatically thinks it's really good. He thinks scenery and wow factor are merely a minor distraction. He is a scratch player.

My take is somewhere in the middle. I appreciate design value, scenery, conditoning, wow factor, etc. The three of us have had many discussions and disagreements about what makes or breaks a great course.

I've played just shy of 100 courses, including World Woods, Troon North, Limestone Springs and Farmlinks in beautiful Alabama, The Fort in Indianapolis, and Branson Creek. In total, I think 8 or 9 have cracked the top 100 public at some point.

So, this spring my Chicago friend calls me and says the US Amatuer qualifier is at Milwaukee Country Club, which is ranked 53rd in the entire United States. We jumped on the chance!

I go to Milwaukee with the expectation that this course will be the best I've ever played. By far.

We play our practice round with a nice guy from Florida, who is originally from the Milwaukee area. He tells me early in the round that he had to come play the course again, and in fact had planned his summer vacation around it. He is a course rater for GolfWeek also.

We get done with the front nine. The course is in great shape. Check that, immaculate shape. Alot of the holes, however, are holes that you would see at any nice country club anywhere in the midwest. As we walk off the 9th green, he says that if more people played the course, it would be ranked higher.

I literally had to refrain myself from screaming "What the hell are you talking about?" Of course I didn't say that, and reserved judgement for the time being.

It was odd on the back nine, as I saw the potential for several holes running alongside, over, and around the river that ran through the property, so many forgettable holes. 10 and 11 were fantastic. No doubt.

12 was a par 3, played over the river. But what a waste. The river was 15-18 yards short of the front edge, and thus wasn't even in play unless the player hits a disaster shot.

15, a long par 5, was another waste. The river ran the entire right side of the hole, but the fairway was so wide, and the trees on the right so heavy, the water wasn't even a factor.

16 and 17 good, tough par 4 and 3.

18, good, not great finisher.

A scenic course, but not stuning or gorgeous. Great shot values. But outdated. The qualifier was converted to a par 70, as 7 and 10 were considered par 4s that day. None of the par 3s were memorable by any standard.

Milwaukee C.C. was a really well-kept, pristine, challenging golf course. But it certainly had a handful or shortcomings. Was I SHOCKED that it was 53rd overall in the country.Yes.

My friend, however, said it was the best course the two of us had ever played. By miles.

So, ulimately, what makes a great course? Is it your overall impression? Is it based on a point system, rewarding an amount for conditioning, design, scenery, shot values, etc?

What is it?
[/quote]
To me it is all the things you mentioned above. It is a combination of layout and conditioning. Layout to me means a nice variety of holes that don't all look like each other. A combination of things like water, sand, trees,etc... that make the course visually appealing as well as challenging. Conditioning means tee boxes, fairways, sand traps and the greens. I have played several "nice" courses this year and all of a sudden a you hit several beat up tee boxes and it takes away from the appeal to me.

[larrybud]

As far as layout, a good mix of easy and difficult holes. Many risk/reward decisions. It should be playable for the short knocker, and get more difficult the longer you want to hit it. A good mix of par 3 lengths as well. I don't want to be hitting my 3 hybrid into every green, and I don't want to bit hitting a 7 iron into every green. 1 short, 1 long, and 2 medium length ought to do it.

Conditioning... Pure greens.

[Petter Player]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1318781357' post='3679207']
As far as layout, a good mix of easy and difficult holes. Many risk/reward decisions. It should be playable for the short knocker, and get more difficult the longer you want to hit it. A good mix of par 3 lengths as well. I don't want to be hitting my 3 hybrid into every green, and I don't want to bit hitting a 7 iron into every green. 1 short, 1 long, and 2 medium length ought to do it.

Conditioning... Pure greens.
[/quote]

Though I hate those about 100 yds par-3's there should be a combination of holes where the entire bag is tested as J Erickson said. Long par-4s to force you to hit a long iron onto the green, short ones, even maybe one where you can go for the green if you're long enough with your driver, One reachable par-5 to try for an eagle and then the impossible one, where you can by sharp course management take off a shot or two.

The greens should be designed acordingly, the long hole greens should not be like a couple af VW Beatles have been burried there, but there should be an opening through the front to go for the heart by rolling it through a hiarpin the last 30 yards or so. Then the short holes should have a set of strongly shaped greens, where it is necessary to understand, what pin position you can go for and is the flag at all reachable, or should one just try to find a spot where you can stop the ball.

Fairway traps should be in play from every tee, no matter how far or close you hit it off the tee, and greenside bunkers should play major role on the holes where the fairway does not present any challenges.

And in addition to prior, conditioning. Roughs should be high as designed and thick to punish you from faulty shots, greens smooth and true, stimpmeter numbers never less than 9.

And then there is the wow-factor. Still to my opinion gardening should never go before play values.

It is unfortunately very seldom, I get to play such a course.

[jdhallissey]

I am different. There should be no let down in golf- you must play 18 holes, not 13 and 6 walk in the parks. I want a golf course that if I miss it hurts me/makes me work for par. The wow factors are nice but not needed. I need fast slick greens. No cups on the side slopes tho give somebody a chance at it. Bunkers need to be 5-8 feet deep flat bottoms (pete dye style LOVE IT) Mr Jack style too. Tucked pins no run ups persay or run ups that actually make you hit a draw or fade into the run up shot. I need that style of golf course, I need it to make my brain work or I will just not care. Courses that setup to me to name a few----
TPC Stadium course PGA West
Borona creek
Classic club
Silver rock resort
Indian Wells -- private
Mission hills
Cross Creek
Arcadia Bluffs
Cog Hill --DUBS

I can go on lol.