Playing Hickory Golf

[teevons]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1438054499' post='12032218']
Teevons (Tim)and I just pulled off a tag team small haul of authentic hickories on Saturday. He saw a Craigslist posting for a bag full of hickories at a Hollywood pawn shop and emailed me to see if I could go take a look since I was much closer (20 minute drive) than he. I did, and the whole lot was purchased for a very reasonable price. 13 hickory clubs which included a set of Walter Hagen irons and three woods that all have decent weights, and with Tim's skill will be made players, one of them hopefully for the bag of yours truly.

The Hagens will be brought to fine fettle with heads reset and grips reworked, or replaced, and shafts straightened. Look for them to maybe, possibly appear at a familiar site near you which I will not name, but starts with the 5th letter of the alphabet. For some of you who have been itching to get your hickory on, this would be an opportunity.

Here are the pics:
[/quote]Cant wait to see these irons, they might end up in my bag!!

[Bella Woods]

The Hagen irons look like they will clean up beautifully.

[majic]

The Mills putters all need a little careful filling of the face so you can change it to 4 if you like. A good file and protractor.
The Hagen irons have been getting a lot of love recently. They made several playable models.
The Wilsonian brassie-not driver-is a very good player. If the shaft is good do a nice clean up, spray Minwax Helmsman spar urethane on shaft and head and rewhip and new grip.
Nice find

[HoldenCornfield]

I took the hickories for a walk this evening. First time I've played them in a while, probably six weeks or more, and shot an easy 39. If I had a short game it could've been a 35 or 36. I made one birdie but missed another from 6 feet, three jacked from 25 feet, and was just 1 of 4 getting up and down from the fringe. But my ball striking was spot on.

I continue to be a bit mystified as to how I am able to hit the ball so solidly with such torquey shafts and unforgiving heads. But all of my best rounds this year have come with the hickories while I struggle comparatively with the steelies. The only thing I can figure is that out of an abundance of caution of breaking another shaft I'm actually swinging the hickories with better tempo.

One other note, I recently found my bending bar and did some work on my sand wedge before playing. It had had an extremely flat lie previously, and I was really struggling with hitting everything to the right. It's much improved now. As Tricky Dick Nixon might say, what a difference a lie makes.

[ebeer]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1438311112' post='12051572']
I continue to be a bit mystified as to how I am able to hit the ball so solidly with such torquey shafts and unforgiving heads. But all of my best rounds this year have come with the hickories while I struggle comparatively with the steelies.
[/quote]

Chalk me up for mystified as well. I played 9 with my modern clubs this week...probably the first time I've hit anything other than hickory in a year and a half. I shot a 40, pretty much what I shoot with my hickory clubs. I will admit I miss the long, and seemingly effortless, bombs of a modern driver. I also remembered that my modern gap wedge from 65yds can go hop hop stop, something completely foreign to my niblick which is often difficult to keep on the green.

That said, I'm still digging the hickories. Nice to play the old Mizuno's for a change but I'm guessing the hickories will still get 90% of my play.

[gvogel]

[quote name='TimV' timestamp='1437658857' post='12005378']
Question: It appears that Hickory Golf is a wealthier man's game not unlike keeping up with the latest and greatest modern gear. Is there a way to obtain playable hickory equipment for the more financially challenged player such as myself? How would I go about it? How would you know if something shown on eBay was actually playable? I couldn't afford to invest anything in this just to have shafts snap the first time I take them out. In modern equipment I cut my cost by building myself. That doesn't appear possible to play hickory. As always, Any info is appreciated.
[/quote]

Tim sounds like someone who likes to work on clubs, and keep his costs down by doing as much as he can, himself.

For anyone else that wants to dip his toes into hickory, and does not have a workbench or the time to reshaft, re-pin and restore old clubs, my suggestion would be this:

Pick up a brassie, a Star OA jigger, mashie, and mashie niblick from Tad. That would be 4 clubs. You could use your modern sand wedge to start, and maybe find an old Acushnet Bullseye putter in a barrell. You could start playing a bit with those 6 clubs. Or, pick up a driver and spoon and the OA irons I listed to form a 7 club set with a modern wedge and putter.

If you end up loving hickory, you could then start building out your set, with a niblick and putter. Niblicks are tricky; it you show up at a hickory event you could have the opportunity to try a few for pitching shots. Tad has a few really good niblicks. I find that the Star OA niblick does a fine all around job.

That would be my lazy man's somewhat inexpensive approach to getting started in hickory golf.

[Rumpilla]

I have wanted to get into hickory golf for years and finally came the right topic for all my questions. First I want to say thanks to everyone that is sharing all their amazing knowledge! I plan on joining the society once I get a decent set of clubs and get out on the range and course with them. What are the best books or information sites for me to visit so I can get my feet wet?

I also found a post on a classified site in my general area with this to offer for $150. This is the description:
7 Vintage Wooden Shaft Golf Clubs Play Set with Vintage Bag
All are in good playable and clean condition without
cracks, breaks, etc. (One has a slight bow)
Macgregor Driver: Shaft by The Crawford McGregor & Caney Co.
Dayton, O. 492 B-6 Swing weight
New grip over the original
Mid Iron "The Hutch" Special Jack Hutchison Burke
3 Iron Wilson Crest Stainless steel Range 155-170 yds
Mashie Wicklow Sports City Radio
Mashie Pro Made chrome plate
Mashie Niblic Sure Shot 7 hand forged
Putter Model One John Black, Autographed Model
New grip over the original

I will try to post pictures once I figure out how to. I may have stayed up to late.

[Rumpilla]

[quote name='Rumpilla' timestamp='1438505638' post='12063056']I have wanted to get into hickory golf for years and finally came the right topic for all my questions. First I want to say thanks to everyone that is sharing all their amazing knowledge! I plan on joining the society once I get a decent set of clubs and get out on the range and course with them. What are the best books or information sites for me to visit so I can get my feet wet?

I also found a post on a classified site in my general area with this to offer for $150. This is the description:
7 Vintage Wooden Shaft Golf Clubs Play Set with Vintage Bag
All are in good playable and clean condition without
cracks, breaks, etc. (One has a slight bow)
Macgregor Driver: Shaft by The Crawford McGregor & Caney Co.
Dayton, O. 492 B-6 Swing weight
New grip over the original
Mid Iron "The Hutch" Special Jack Hutchison Burke
3 Iron Wilson Crest Stainless steel Range 155-170 yds
Mashie Wicklow Sports City Radio
Mashie Pro Made chrome plate
Mashie Niblic Sure Shot 7 hand forged
Putter Model One John Black, Autographed Model
New grip over the original

I will try to post pictures once I figure out how to. I may have stayed up to late.[/quote]
[attachment=2885344:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1438506469.214959.jpg]

Here are the pics. Thanks!!!

[Woodridge]

Beautiful set!! Welcome to the club! One of the best hickory sites is the Society for Hickory Golfers.....

http://www.hickorygolfers.com/

[TimV]

[quote name='Rumpilla' timestamp='1438506514' post='12063070']
[quote name='Rumpilla' timestamp='1438505638' post='12063056']I have wanted to get into hickory golf for years and finally came the right topic for all my questions. First I want to say thanks to everyone that is sharing all their amazing knowledge! I plan on joining the society once I get a decent set of clubs and get out on the range and course with them. What are the best books or information sites for me to visit so I can get my feet wet?

I also found a post on a classified site in my general area with this to offer for $150. This is the description:
7 Vintage Wooden Shaft Golf Clubs Play Set with Vintage Bag
All are in good playable and clean condition without
cracks, breaks, etc. (One has a slight bow)
Macgregor Driver: Shaft by The Crawford McGregor & Caney Co.
Dayton, O. 492 B-6 Swing weight
New grip over the original
Mid Iron "The Hutch" Special Jack Hutchison Burke
3 Iron Wilson Crest Stainless steel Range 155-170 yds
Mashie Wicklow Sports City Radio
Mashie Pro Made chrome plate
Mashie Niblic Sure Shot 7 hand forged
Putter Model One John Black, Autographed Model
New grip over the original

I will try to post pictures once I figure out how to. I may have stayed up to late.[/quote]
[attachment=2885344:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1438506469.214959.jpg]

Here are the pics. Thanks!!!
[/quote]

That looks like a steal to me at $150. I would jump. I think all you would need to add would be a Niblick for a starter play set. Am I right guys?

[majic]

My guess not playable. B swing weight is a wall hanger at best. Look for clubs that are C5-7 min. No bowed shafts. Brassie 43 inch. Get proper length clubs. So if the seller will give you good pictures, shaft pictures, swing weights etc don't buy
You will regret buying bad sticks
You are better to go slow. Buy from good sellers and you will have a better experience at a good cost. Try to play an event. Check with organizer. They always have loaner or rental clubs. Talk to people.
Good luck

[Rumpilla]

[quote name='Rumpilla' timestamp='1438506514' post='12063070'][quote name='Rumpilla' timestamp='1438505638' post='12063056']I have wanted to get into hickory golf for years and finally came the right topic for all my questions. First I want to say thanks to everyone that is sharing all their amazing knowledge! I plan on joining the society once I get a decent set of clubs and get out on the range and course with them. What are the best books or information sites for me to visit so I can get my feet wet?

I also found a post on a classified site in my general area with this to offer for $150. This is the description:
7 Vintage Wooden Shaft Golf Clubs Play Set with Vintage Bag
All are in good playable and clean condition without
cracks, breaks, etc. (One has a slight bow)
Macgregor Driver: Shaft by The Crawford McGregor & Caney Co.
Dayton, O. 492 B-6 Swing weight
New grip over the original
Mid Iron "The Hutch" Special Jack Hutchison Burke
3 Iron Wilson Crest Stainless steel Range 155-170 yds
Mashie Wicklow Sports City Radio
Mashie Pro Made chrome plate
Mashie Niblic Sure Shot 7 hand forged
Putter Model One John Black, Autographed Model
New grip over the original

I will try to post pictures once I figure out how to. I may have stayed up to late.[/quote]
[attachment=2885344:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1438506469.214959.jpg]

Here are the pics. Thanks!!![/quote]
A few more pics if this helps. Thanks for the feedback
[attachment=2885542:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1438526259.454744.jpg][attachment=2885544:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1438526276.229894.jpg]

[Rumpilla]

[quote name='majic' timestamp='1438524277' post='12063646']
My guess not playable. B swing weight is a wall hanger at best. Look for clubs that are C5-7 min. No bowed shafts. Brassie 43 inch. Get proper length clubs. So if the seller will give you good pictures, shaft pictures, swing weights etc don't buy
You will regret buying bad sticks
You are better to go slow. Buy from good sellers and you will have a better experience at a good cost. Try to play an event. Check with organizer. They always have loaner or rental clubs. Talk to people.
Good luck
[/quote]

Thanks a ton for the help! I will be researching this a lot more. I also will be posting a couple of clubs that my Godfather gave to my Father and myself when I was a baby. They are restored Walter Hagen Deluxe models I believe. Again thanks for everything and I have a lot to learn

Chris Raumpz

[majic]

Here I my new Victor irons. These are the replicas of the Bobby Jones Spalding clubs. There is a set on the Bay for around $5000.
Great set that I just reintroduced. One piece head so you can adjust. 4 degrees loft between numbers. Yes this set has numbers. About 2 from today's. A 5 is similar to some 7 iron lifts. [attachment=2899664:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1439217344.876295.jpg][attachment=2899668:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1439217422.424552.jpg]

[oldschoolrocker]

Simply amazing Mr. Moore.

[Kirasdad]

Those are gorgeous Tad.

Love the flange. A flange on a hickory iron is a visual confidence booster, for me anyway. It makes me think there is some bounce there, even if it doesn't have any, at least it looks like there is!

[Kirasdad]

A question for Tad, or anyone else who may feel qualified to answer. In the recent Teevons pawnshop haul there was a Wilsonian brassie that Tim and I thought might make a good driver for me with a new stiffer shaft. It's 13 degrees, nice size head, soft shaft. Unfortunately when we put it on the SW scale it came out C2/3. Too light. The club had no whipping so new whipping adds a little, but I don't want to reshaft if the head is too light. I have used the driver for a couple of rounds, it's a decent performer, but has a funny feel to it, kind of dead feeling, not that great persimmon thunk. I can't figure out if it's the old shaft, or the head is too light?

Any thoughts/opinions?

[Blade Junkie]

If it is too light at C2/C3, I would have thought it was a fairly simple job for a good repair guy to reweight it to your preferred swingweight ?

I think Wilsonians's have a decent enough sized sole plate to drill into underneath and insert some lead, and replace with no obvious sign of the work ?

What length is the shaft ? You described it as 'soft' - what flex do you usually prefer ?

[stixman]

Yup, reshaft and pour some lead in. (provided you have clearance from the health and safety brigade)

[Bella Woods]

John

In addition to what Stixman and Blade Junkie suggest, you could
also oil harden the head to add weight (maybe even to the extent
that lead weight is not necessary).

[ebeer]

Tungsten is almost 2x heavier than lead. OK an ounce of lead is is the same weight as an ounce of tungsten, but it takes less tungsten to get you there

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Pinewood-Derby-Weights-Tungsten-3oz/dp/B001FO8Q0G"]These[/url] are bit pricey, but no melting, no pouring, no burns, and no toxic chemicals. I've had great luck with them.....and duh moment, it's easy to change the swing weight for woods - but moreso than irons, there can be an impact on shaft flex. I've seen some C2 brassies weighted up to D1 go noodly loose. Others in the same situation have been fine, depends on the wood.

[stixman]

Bella,
That's really interesting, I hadn't considered it.
Who do you know, outside of the Pros here (Tad, Dave and Mike) who have done this successfully. I saw a piece in Persimmon Golf today where it was being done on a semi professional scale and that was pretty awesome. Who has done this as a strictly amateur, speak up and let's have a thread on it.

[majic]

The Wilsonian brassie and other Wilson brassie heads of similar shape are fantastic clubs. The driver not.
They should be between 42.75 and 43 inches long. Swing weight between C-7-D-1
I think Bella has done the soaking of persimmon before and it might be your answer but I have been a great fan of the tungsten plugs I get from the Tom Wishon site
You can easily swap shafts but check what you have and check the Randy Jensen book for stiffness in his chart.

[Bella Woods]

Stixman:

I have oil hardened classic woods in the past. The first time (maybe 25 to
30 years ago) I could not find any info on how to do it, or for how long etc. So I
just winged it. I think the first time, I just put it in boiled linseed oil for 2 or 3
hours and went with it. Not scientific at all.

It was not until I talked to Dave Wood a couple of years ago that I realized there was
no answer as to how long a wood should soak in the oil - it depends on the clubhead....
Also I was using 100% boiled linseed oil mixture, I don't think he ever did.

Dave oil hardened his woods to a target weight for a finished clubhead. His main reason
was to fine tune the clubhead weight, although the moisture proofing was an added benefit
of the process. Some of his clubs spent little time in his "linseed acquarium" and some
spent many more hours/days depending on how the oil penetrated. He told me that they cut
open some woods to check penetration - some were only 1/8 to 3/16 inches and some were as
much as 5/8inch. Also - he did not use 100% oil, he mixed in I believe some terps/paint
thinner (maybe 75% oil 25% thinner) - something that would evaporate. He also soaked them
and dried them in the hot sun of Texas.....

Oil hardening is very easy to do. I think a lot of the hickory wood heads are light because
they have dried out over the years, oil hardening would be good for them if they are to be played.
They need to be stripped down to the wood though, and keep checking the weight as it progresses....
Boiled linseed oil only - linseed oil itself will never dry!

I have a Lowe & Campbell Brassie that has 16 degree loft right now that I am going to turn into
a weak spoon (I would say 4 wood loft - 18 degrees). I am going to oil harden the head because
it is light and a little dry.

[teevons]

Kirasdad did not ask me about changing weight in the Wilsonian, I think he was asking Tad in particular what his opinion was

What I have found out about hickory woods are the woods with no inserts have defrormed faces from play or are soft from age. Installing a fiber insert makes them play much better and more consistent.

I am in process of reshafting and installing inserts in several woods right now. I have changed SW on several of my players using several different options, see attached pics. I use the tungsten weights, discs, the eaisiest is cutting the lead rope I have, just drill a small hole and epoxy the rope in, very easy
I am not a fan of poring lead, it is very toxic and you really have to work fast

[Kirasdad]

Excellent suggestions all.

"Ask and ye shall receive" And I did.

Now all I have to do is figure out what advice to take. Tim can do anything in his shop. His repair work is terrific.

The shaft in a hickory club seems to me to be more important than steel or graphite. All things considered I prefer firm to stiff in my hickory clubs, although I have hit a few that were too stiff. So putting a stiff shaft in the Wilsonian and weighting it to say D0 which would make it a little less stiff might be just the thing. Of course, Tim has a bunch of hickory woods available for refurbishment...

Too many, in fact for my goofy brain.

Well, some interesting choice will be made.

I'll keep you posted (I'm sure everyone will wait breathlessly for that).

Thank you again.

[Bella Woods]

John:

Just my opinion on hickory clubs.....but

Putting a stiff shaft in a hickory wood with D-0 swingweight
is a recipe for disaster unless you swing it at 100t MPH - even
then could be a problem......

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1439337665' post='12119964']
John:

Just my opinion on hickory clubs.....but

Putting a stiff shaft in a hickory wood with D-0 swingweight
is a recipe for disaster unless you swing it at 100t MPH - even
then could be a problem......
[/quote]

No I am more like 90ish mph. So the SW should be heavier, or the shaft regularish?

[stixman]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1439325274' post='12118720']
Stixman:

I have oil hardened classic woods in the past. The first time (maybe 25 to
30 years ago) I could not find any info on how to do it, or for how long etc. So I
just winged it. I think the first time, I just put it in boiled linseed oil for 2 or 3
hours and went with it. Not scientific at all.

It was not until I talked to Dave Wood a couple of years ago that I realized there was
no answer as to how long a wood should soak in the oil - it depends on the clubhead....
Also I was using 100% boiled linseed oil mixture, I don't think he ever did.

Dave oil hardened his woods to a target weight for a finished clubhead. His main reason
was to fine tune the clubhead weight, although the moisture proofing was an added benefit
of the process. Some of his clubs spent little time in his "linseed acquarium" and some
spent many more hours/days depending on how the oil penetrated. He told me that they cut
open some woods to check penetration - some were only 1/8 to 3/16 inches and some were as
much as 5/8inch. Also - he did not use 100% oil, he mixed in I believe some terps/paint
thinner (maybe 75% oil 25% thinner) - something that would evaporate. He also soaked them
and dried them in the hot sun of Texas.....

Oil hardening is very easy to do. I think a lot of the hickory wood heads are light because
they have dried out over the years, oil hardening would be good for them if they are to be played.
They need to be stripped down to the wood though, and keep checking the weight as it progresses....
Boiled linseed oil only - linseed oil itself will never dry!

I have a Lowe & Campbell Brassie that has 16 degree loft right now that I am going to turn into
a weak spoon (I would say 4 wood loft - 18 degrees). I am going to oil harden the head because
it is light and a little dry.
[/quote]

Great stuff.
I had seen the piece in PGT about Dave Woods and his linseed oil bath and Iseem to recall a 6 month soak being involved and then air drying in the 'Texas sun'.
As you say penetration will be painfully slow which is why some sort of carrier works I suppose. Similarly it doesn't penetrate hickory as much as some suppose, it just provides a flexible waterproof skin.....same principle as linseed oil based paint!
Question...if you remove the shaft before soaking what effect does the impregnation of oil have on the later glueing the shaft in place? If you see what I mean. Do you have to leave it for months to dry out effecively or do you leave a sacrificial stump of hickory in there, to be removed when the impregnation is complete?

[Bella Woods]

Stixman:

If you are going to take the shaft out first, I would plug the neck with something (and
the shaft tip hole too if a bore through) before soaking in oil. Also, if no face insert
great, but if you do have one I would not take it off before soaking. I have never had a
problem with this - but these are per Dave's suggestion as well (when I was recently talking
to him about oil hardening a Wilsonian Brassie that has a green glass insert in it. I don't
know how much oil the insert would soak up - but it is being replaced anyway. Fiber inserts
would probably soak up some oil but I can't imagine it would damage it or anything.

The oil could change the shaft bore or insert cavity though (I say could because you would not
know until you do it on any particular head). Besides you really don't need to oil harden the
inside of the neck or insert cavity if you are going to be epoxying things back into place. I
would say the same thing goes for the soleplate cavity if one exists.

Of course if you don't care if the cavities change to some degree because you will be re-boring
or reshaping the cavities - I don't think the oil hardening of them will "hurt" anything.