1950's golf club grip "build-up paper"

[Maxwell]

I need some help identifying it.

I recently purchased an incomplete set of Mens R/H 1950? MacGregor Ben Hogan irons model 1622. I have a 3 iron to complete the set BUT I need to put an original grip on the 3 iron. I removed an identicle grip from a badly rusted iron of the same model and underneath the leather wrap was double-sided tape covering a tan coloured paper with black epoxy on the other side. I beleive this tan paper/black epoxy was a build-up tape used in the original manufacturing of the irons.

Question - does anyone have a clue what type of tan coloured paper/black epoxy build-up tape this is? Does it have a name?

Attached is 2 pictures of what I'm trying to describe and a link to Photobucket with the remaining 4 pictures.

Max
Canada

[Shallowface]

[quote name='Maxwell' timestamp='1326395146' post='4072351']
[size="4"]I recently purchased an incomplete set of Mens R/H 1950? MacGregor Ben Hogan irons model 1622. I have a 3 iron to complete the set BUT I need to put an original grip on the 3 iron. I removed an identicle grip from a badly rusted iron of the same model and underneath the leather wrap was double-sided tape covering a tan coloured paper with black epoxy on the other side. I beleive this tan paper/black epoxy was a build-up tape used in the original manufacturing of the irons.

Question - does anyone have a clue what type of tan coloured paper/black epoxy build-up tape this is? Does it have a name?

Max
Canada[/size]
[/quote]

Max, I remember reading an article many years ago about Jack Nicklaus' clubs. The paper was used as the underlisting and they called it Crepe Paper.

The lack of a rubber underlisting was why Jack's clubs always had a unique sound when he took one out of the bag. Almost sounded as it would if it had no grip on it at all.

That black stuff isn't epoxy. It's pitch. That was mentioned in the Nicklaus article as well. I wish I remembered where I read that article.

I've only worked with one set of these. The original grips were unusable, and I replaced them with Lamkin Perma Wrap Classics, a wrap style rubber grip with a gold trim that IMO is a really nice looking and very playable replacement for vintage clubs. That pitch was a bear to remove. I finally had to resort to Goo Gone!

[rex235]

A few years ago,
There was an article either in Golf Digest or Golf World on Jack Nicklaus' personal clubmaker, Jack Wullkotte,
who spoke about the paper underlisting he used for Nicklaus wrapped leather grips, and the few remaining people who had worked with these materials.

To my knowledge, Wullkote still lives in FL, but am not sure how to get in touch with him.

[astamm8]

[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1326397012' post='4072555']
[quote name='Maxwell' timestamp='1326395146' post='4072351']
[size="4"]I recently purchased an incomplete set of Mens R/H 1950? MacGregor Ben Hogan irons model 1622. I have a 3 iron to complete the set BUT I need to put an original grip on the 3 iron. I removed an identicle grip from a badly rusted iron of the same model and underneath the leather wrap was double-sided tape covering a tan coloured paper with black epoxy on the other side. I beleive this tan paper/black epoxy was a build-up tape used in the original manufacturing of the irons.

Question - does anyone have a clue what type of tan coloured paper/black epoxy build-up tape this is? Does it have a name?

Max
Canada[/size]
[/quote]

Max, I remember reading an article many years ago about Jack Nicklaus' clubs. The paper was used as the underlisting and they called it Crepe Paper.

The lack of a rubber underlisting was why Jack's clubs always had a unique sound when he took one out of the bag. Almost sounded as it would if it had no grip on it at all.

That black stuff isn't epoxy. It's pitch. That was mentioned in the Nicklaus article as well. I wish I remembered where I read that article.

I've only worked with one set of these. The original grips were unusable, and I replaced them with Lamkin Perma Wrap Classics, a wrap style rubber grip with a gold trim that IMO is a really nice looking and very playable replacement for vintage clubs. That pitch was a bear to remove. I finally had to resort to Goo Gone!
[/quote]

I agree 100% with the sound. I've been in contact with Mr. Wulkotte about old style grips and specifically Jack's grips.

I think there's some misunderstanding about the "paper underlisting." Jack's grips were made just like the old 50s MacGregor grips. There was a thick layer of pitch and then the crepe paper. But I think the pitch is basically the underlisting and the crepe paper the build up tape. So I don't think "paper underlisting" is quite right.

Another misconception is that Jack used undersized grips (some say that's the reason for the paper underlisting). He actually used very slightly oversized grips, which is fairly large considered he (famously) had small hands.

Jack (and Wulkotte) used the pitch underlisting quite late because they couldn't get the same hard feel with the rubber grips. Eventually they found one that worked and they moved to that and Jack had a sponsorship deal at one time with a short-lived grip company, so he did use rubber grips starting in the mid 90s. You can still hear the same sound in the mid to late 90s Shell matches, and I'm pretty sure these grips would have been the rubber grips.

[astamm8]

And, post #15 of this thread has the article. It talks about the hard feel of Jack's clubs, which I think is probably largely due to the grips.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/544619-the-bear-and-his-bats/page__hl__jack%26%2339%3Bs+bats"]http://www.golfwrx.c...6%2339%3Bs+bats[/url]

[Maxwell]

[size="4"]Shallowface - Thanks for the help! The paper is either [/size][url="http://www.allpack.co.uk/papers_page.htm#CREPE%20KRAFT%20ROLLS"][size="4"]"Kraft Crepe Paper or Currugated Paper"[/size][/url][size="4"] and your right about the black stuff under neath the paper, it's pitch or [/size][url="http://www.solventfreepaint.ca/pine-tar.htm"][size="4"]Pine Tar[/size][/url][size="4"]. There is a [/size][url="http://www.ehow.com/how_5924992_use-pine-tar-wood-glue.html"][size="4"]short article[/size][/url][size="4"] on how to use Pitch or Pine Tar as a glue or adhesive.
Now, I have to clean and treat the leather wrap while waiting for the samples to arrive and then try to match them up to the exsisting crepe paper.
Thanks again Shallowface.
Max
[/size]

[Bella Woods]

Max:

In my experience that stuff comes off easiest if you heat it with a heat gun first
and then use a grip tape removal tool.

If the pitch is hard and brittle (its usually not) - you might get lucky and be able to just
use the tool. Then clean remaining with some type remover/cleaner.

[astamm8]

I think this is the paper that's used (although in a more neutral color).

[url="http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=crepe+paper&view=detail&id=ECF434BFB115231D8B15F6889C0C4056E3033CEE&first=31&FORM=IDFRIR"]http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=crepe+paper&view=detail&id=ECF434BFB115231D8B15F6889C0C4056E3033CEE&first=31&FORM=IDFRIR[/url]

[Shallowface]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1326407537' post='4073541']
And, post #15 of this thread has the article. It talks about the hard feel of Jack's clubs, which I think is probably largely due to the grips.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/544619-the-bear-and-his-bats/page__hl__jack%26%2339%3Bs+bats"]http://www.golfwrx.c...6%2339%3Bs+bats[/url]
[/quote]

That's one article I remember, and it does use the term "paper underlisting" so that could be where I remembered that from.

It also uses the term "friction tape." Not sure what that is.

But there's another one out there somewhere that said "crepe paper underlisting." Has to be, because I don't know crepe paper from toilet paper so I had to have read that somewhere to have that memory.

[Shallowface]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1326407462' post='4073533']
[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1326397012' post='4072555']
[quote name='Maxwell' timestamp='1326395146' post='4072351']
[size="4"]I recently purchased an incomplete set of Mens R/H 1950? MacGregor Ben Hogan irons model 1622. I have a 3 iron to complete the set BUT I need to put an original grip on the 3 iron. I removed an identicle grip from a badly rusted iron of the same model and underneath the leather wrap was double-sided tape covering a tan coloured paper with black epoxy on the other side. I beleive this tan paper/black epoxy was a build-up tape used in the original manufacturing of the irons.

Question - does anyone have a clue what type of tan coloured paper/black epoxy build-up tape this is? Does it have a name?

Max
Canada[/size]
[/quote]

Max, I remember reading an article many years ago about Jack Nicklaus' clubs. The paper was used as the underlisting and they called it Crepe Paper.

The lack of a rubber underlisting was why Jack's clubs always had a unique sound when he took one out of the bag. Almost sounded as it would if it had no grip on it at all.

That black stuff isn't epoxy. It's pitch. That was mentioned in the Nicklaus article as well. I wish I remembered where I read that article.

I've only worked with one set of these. The original grips were unusable, and I replaced them with Lamkin Perma Wrap Classics, a wrap style rubber grip with a gold trim that IMO is a really nice looking and very playable replacement for vintage clubs. That pitch was a bear to remove. I finally had to resort to Goo Gone!
[/quote]

I agree 100% with the sound. I've been in contact with Mr. Wulkotte about old style grips and specifically Jack's grips.

I think there's some misunderstanding about the "paper underlisting." Jack's grips were made just like the old 50s MacGregor grips. There was a thick layer of pitch and then the crepe paper. But I think the pitch is basically the underlisting and the crepe paper the build up tape. So I don't think "paper underlisting" is quite right.

Another misconception is that Jack used undersized grips (some say that's the reason for the paper underlisting). He actually used very slightly oversized grips, which is fairly large considered he (famously) had small hands.

Jack (and Wulkotte) used the pitch underlisting quite late because they couldn't get the same hard feel with the rubber underlistings. Eventually they found one that worked and they moved to that and Jack had a sponsorship deal at one time with a short-lived underlisting company (maybe a grip company), so he did use rubber underlistings at one point. He can still hear the same sound in the mid to late 90s Shell matches, and I'm pretty sure these grips would have been made with the rubber underlistings. So, they were able to get the same feel and sound out of rubber underlistings, but it was apparently quite difficult.
[/quote]

In Golf My Way (published in 1973), Jack mentioned using 1/16" oversized grips, which are quite large for a man with his hand size (a tracing of his actual hand size is in the book). He said it made the fade he wanted to hit come more easily.
He said he had them changed once they compressed down to a smaller diameter.

He then said that after a time, he just left them the smaller size, since he was working the ball both ways more as his career progressed. The article you found in another thread says he used 1/32" oversized grips, so that seems to tie with the story in Golf My Way.

In the mid 90s, Jack had an endorsement deal with Griptec, who made a smooth wrap style rubber grip. Mickelson also had a deal with them at the same time. But as you said, you could still hear that distinctive sound after that point so I wonder if he ever used the Griptecs, or perhaps they made some underlistings for him (I don't remember them offering that product to the general public, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have made them for Jack). Griptec no longer exists, but there's a company called Star Grip that I believe is a sort of successor company to Griptec. They make an excellent product.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1326407537' post='4073541']
And, post #15 of this thread has the article. It talks about the hard feel of Jack's clubs, which I think is probably largely due to the grips.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/544619-the-bear-and-his-bats/page__hl__jack%26%2339%3Bs+bats"]http://www.golfwrx.c...6%2339%3Bs+bats[/url]
[/quote]

LOL, I started that thread, forgot I started it and never saw any of the discussion....some of my best work ever!

I find it really interesting that Jack when with a wedge set up that has become in fashion again...a 52* and a 58*...of course now days that is a gap wedge and a lob wedge, whereas in Jacks day that was a PW and SW.

[astamm8]

According to the article Jack's grips were 1/32" over standard. And, he apparently had a pretty significant taper, unlike some pros who use tape to take out the taper.

Griptec was the company that sponsored Jack and he did use slip-on Griptecs for a time.

I'm glad this came up because I think I misunderstood something that Mr. Wulkotte told me. I think he made Jack's grips the old way until the mid 90s and then switched to slip on rubber grips. I originally thought the switch was to rubber underlistings with leather grips, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I thought Jack was using leather the whole time, but I guess not. I'd love to see the rubber ones he used up close. This may explain why at that times his grips were shorter (normal size) than the 11" of his leather ones.

[dlygrisse]

I think it was in Golf MY Way where Jack talked about how his grips were rarely changed. Over time the leather grips would sort of compress and become smaller feeling, and almost slick. Apparently he liked them that way.....IIRC he may have never changed his grips till his club wore out and then he replaced them. My guess is he probably played the same grips for a year or two, but leather grips held up much longer than the modern grip.

Arnie used to tinker with his clubs all the time, I have read where he would often unravel his leather grips and use build up tape on certain parts of them to change the feel between rounds, or while on the range. I think he just used black electrical tape to secure them at the bottom.

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1326419312' post='4074607']
According to the article Jack's grips were 1/32" over standard. And, he apparently had a pretty significant taper, unlike some pros who use tape to take out the taper.

Griptec was the company that sponsored Jack and he did use slip-on Griptecs for a time.

I'm glad this came up because I think I misunderstood something that Mr. Wulkotte told me. I think he made Jack's grips the old way until the mid 90s and then switched to slip on rubber grips. I originally thought the switch was to rubber underlistings with leather grips, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I thought Jack was using leather the whole time, but I guess not. I'd love to see the rubber ones he used up close. This may explain why at that times his grips were shorter (normal size) than the 11" of his leather ones.
[/quote]

[astamm8]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1326420026' post='4074695']
I think it was in Golf MY Way where Jack talked about how his grips were rarely changed. Over time the leather grips would sort of compress and become smaller feeling, and almost slick. Apparently he liked them that way.....IIRC he may have never changed his grips till his club wore out and then he replaced them. My guess is he probably played the same grips for a year or two, but leather grips held up much longer than the modern grip.

Arnie used to tinker with his clubs all the time, I have read where he would often unravel his leather grips and use build up tape on certain parts of them to change the feel between rounds, or while on the range. I think he just used black electrical tape to secure them at the bottom.

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1326419312' post='4074607']
According to the article Jack's grips were 1/32" over standard. And, he apparently had a pretty significant taper, unlike some pros who use tape to take out the taper.

Griptec was the company that sponsored Jack and he did use slip-on Griptecs for a time.

I'm glad this came up because I think I misunderstood something that Mr. Wulkotte told me. I think he made Jack's grips the old way until the mid 90s and then switched to slip on rubber grips. I originally thought the switch was to rubber underlistings with leather grips, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I thought Jack was using leather the whole time, but I guess not. I'd love to see the rubber ones he used up close. This may explain why at that times his grips were shorter (normal size) than the 11" of his leather ones.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I bet Jack used a set of grips for a long, long time. I'd guess he never changed the leather ones at all and that he just used them until the clubs wore out. His irons probably lasted a few years and his drivers the same (he hit it so hard they'd break). Leather grips like these would hold up that long, no problem. And it's very hard to take them off if he wanted to regrip. It was probably only the famous 3 wood that he kept for so long that had to be changed.

Someone here said that he changed the grip on his 3 wood (that he used for 35 years!) because it was very worn and everyone said he should (after like 20 years!). He said he really regretted it though as he wasn't able to get the same feel.

Arnie was a tinkerer and used more clubs than anyone. He once used three different sets of irons in a 4 round tournament that he won. That's really crazy to me that when he was playing that well he'd change grips so much. I guess he was the anti-Nicklaus in that regard. Arnie definitely did his own grips (there's actually I nice recent video of him doing one from the Golf Channel), but there's no way his were done to the precise standards of Nicklaus'.

[Bella Woods]

Shallowface:

Friction tape is double sided (both sides are "tacky")
Tape that was (in days gone by) made in a cloth type style.
But - you normally find it nowadays with a "smooth"
Look/feel to it as opposed to the heavier cloth. It can
Still be found very easily in the old cloth style though.

The old fashion friction tape really reminds me of pitched linen
Whipping - just wider and "tackier" but with the feel/look of
cloth/linen.

I think historically it was used in the electrical field.

It is very possible it could result in a "pitch look"
under a grip over a period of time, especially if
paper or thin cardboard was wrapped on top of it.

Cloth friction tape is frequently used under leather
grips on hickory clubs as an underlisting.

[Maxwell]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1326409347' post='4073677']
Max:

In my experience that stuff comes off easiest if you heat it with a heat gun first
and then use a grip tape removal tool.

If the pitch is hard and brittle (its usually not) - you might get lucky and be able to just
use the tool. Then clean remaining with some type remover/cleaner.
[/quote]


Merci!

[Shallowface]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1326423739' post='4075141']
Shallowface:

Friction tape is double sided (both sides are "tacky")
Tape that was (in days gone by) made in a cloth type style.
But - you normally find it nowadays with a "smooth"
Look/feel to it as opposed to the heavier cloth. It can
Still be found very easily in the old cloth style though.

The old fashion friction tape really reminds me of pitched linen
Whipping - just wider and "tackier" but with the feel/look of
cloth/linen.

I think historically it was used in the electrical field.

It is very possible it could result in a "pitch look"
under a grip over a period of time, especially if
paper or thin cardboard was wrapped on top of it.

Cloth friction tape is frequently used under leather
grips on hickory clubs as an underlisting.
[/quote]

Thanks, Bella!

This forum is so much more interesting and fascinating than any discussion about the latest adjustable titanium driver that looks like it could have been designed by Lego or Mattel.

I look forward to coming here every day!

[Shallowface]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1326420026' post='4074695']
Arnie used to tinker with his clubs all the time, I have read where he would often unravel his leather grips and use build up tape on certain parts of them to change the feel between rounds, or while on the range. I think he just used black electrical tape to secure them at the bottom.

[/quote]

I actually got to witness this first hand at a Senior Tour event many years ago. Arnie was on the range warming up on a Sunday morning and he unwrapped one of his grips, wrapped an extra layer of double sided tape over the existing tape, then rewrapped the leather, finishing it off with some electrical tape, all while we stood there and watched. I'd heard the stories about him doing this, and to actually see it was cool beyond belief. We all just stood there smiling knowing we'd seen something we'd remember the rest of our lives.

[majic]

I have the brown build up tape/paper.. If you want some let me know. Tad

[astamm8]

[quote name='majic' timestamp='1326496510' post='4079691']
I have the brown build up tape/paper.. If you want some let me know. Tad
[/quote]

Tad,

Is the build up paper the same/similar to this? Or is it somehow different?

[url="http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=crepe+paper&view=detail&id=ECF434BFB115231D8B15F6889C0C4056E3033CEE&first=31&FORM=IDFRIR"][color="#353535"]http://www.bing.com/...=31&FORM=IDFRIR[/color][/url]

[Maxwell]

[quote name='majic' timestamp='1326496510' post='4079691']
I have the brown build up tape/paper.. If you want some let me know. Tad
[/quote]

PM sent.

[majic]

Similar look. A brown crepe type paper with the tar in it. Tad