What is the perfect metal for a putter?

[Double Rods]

I would assume that when an OEM says carbon they mean, "high carbon."

 

 

not necessarily.

 

there are many grades of carbon

 

1025 is the probably an optimal version. 1030 is harder and a little more difficult to work with, as far as machining. most Mills carbon putters are made from 1025.

 

jay

 

 

zman, I know it would be tough to mill, but I want a putter made out tungsten carbide.

 

Tungsten carbide is generally formed from powder then ground to shape.

[glenwayputters]

Also, could someone please explain to me D.A.S.S.? I own a machine shop and cut parts for the oil industry every day out of different grades of stainless, nickel alloy, and carbon alloy steel. I have never in the last 15 years seen a D.A.S.S. in any technical paper or stocked by a mill. Enlightenment please.

 

-Drew

 

 

I asked the same question to a putter maker friend of mine and his response was "huh"???

 

jay

[choeppner]

Did his name happen to be David ??? LOL

 

-CHRIS-

[glenwayputters]

Did his name happen to be David ??? LOL

 

-CHRIS-

 

 

no, but he does have his name on a lot of putters.

 

jay

[christ378]

I'd love to see the Dalehead made out of carbon and a bit heavier 345-350g range. The smooth design of the dalehead must be retained though.

 

I would definately pick up a Dale Head made from copper. I was actually thinking of e mailing Byron to see the cost?

 

J.

[Z-Man]

Copper is a very interesting subject... I don`t know about a copper Dale Head ...but something better.I am thinking about the rocking chair bumpers. This will be nice...

[golfluvzme]

Speaking of materials, anyone remember the Damascus Steel Pro 1's that Tad Moore made a few years ago? I saw the pics and was an instant drool machine. I can't remember how many were made or what they sold for, but they were drop-dead gorgeous.

Would this material make a harder or softer feeling putter head. I am not up on the hardness issue, at all.

Thanks for the chance to put in my two-cents,

LaMont in AZ

[icemakr]

I'll cast another vote for Tungsten.

 

I talked to Slighter about milling from pure Tungsten and he said No because of milling difficulties?

 

My understanding is that pure tungsten (pure is not 100%, but 90-95%) is easy to mill and low heat. The calculations I made would suggest a normal anser style head would be 450+grams.

 

Zman, Byron does a aluminum/steel combo putter. How is it bonded together?

 

How about an aluminum/tungsten?

 

Should be heavier but closer to 375+grams

 

Ice

[sergizmo]

Also, could someone please explain to me D.A.S.S.? I own a machine shop and cut parts for the oil industry every day out of different grades of stainless, nickel alloy, and carbon alloy steel. I have never in the last 15 years seen a D.A.S.S. in any technical paper or stocked by a mill. Enlightenment please.

 

-Drew

 

I think it means Double Aged Stainless Steel. I have heard Bettinardi owners reference this term before.

 

As an apprentice machinist, I don't have as much experience as you. I have hardened, tempered, and annealed steels, but never aged them.

 

I could only find one reference to aging in my Machinery's Handbook (25th edition) p.482

aging ; Describes a time-temperature dependent change in the properties of certain alloys. Except for strain aging and age softening, it is the result of a precipitation from a solid solution of one or more compounds whose solubility decreases with decreasing temperature. For each alloy susceptible to aging, there is a unique range of time-temperature combinations to which it will respond.

 

My guess; a slow gradual reduction in hardness through heat. Not as drawn back as a full anneal, but drawn back none-the-less.

[tariq]

what abt nickel? like the old ping ansers? got one of those and they are soft

Carbon Steel for me

gamer is Bettinardi MC series

[Geo]

Also, could someone please explain to me D.A.S.S.? I own a machine shop and cut parts for the oil industry every day out of different grades of stainless, nickel alloy, and carbon alloy steel. I have never in the last 15 years seen a D.A.S.S. in any technical paper or stocked by a mill. Enlightenment please.

 

-Drew

 

I think it means Double Aged Stainless Steel. I have heard Bettinardi owners reference this term before.

 

As an apprentice machinist, I don't have as much experience as you. I have hardened, tempered, and annealed steels, but never aged them.

 

I could only find one reference to aging in my Machinery's Handbook (25th edition) p.482

aging ; Describes a time-temperature dependent change in the properties of certain alloys. Except for strain aging and age softening, it is the result of a precipitation from a solid solution of one or more compounds whose solubility decreases with decreasing temperature. For each alloy susceptible to aging, there is a unique range of time-temperature combinations to which it will respond.

 

My guess; a slow gradual reduction in hardness through heat. Not as drawn back as a full anneal, but drawn back none-the-less.

 

Seriously Serge. Stop dropping knowledge on us like that. We're not ready for it. :) As far as the difference between 303 DASS/GSS and standard 303 SS/SSS, I'm going to go with very little. I've heard that the premium 303 plays crisper, plays softer, and no difference. The average of those 3 different observations is "no difference" so that's my answer too. I think more distinguishable variables between putters of differing itinerations (see Serge, I can use big words too :) ) of 303 stainless would be face thickness (HUGE affect), headweight, and headshape. I am in no way discounting the quality or value of GSS/DASS. Hell, some of my favorite putters are DASS. :) ANYWAY,

 

In my opinion, the perfect metal for a putter would be 304SS. It's the perfect balance between soft, responsive, and easy maintenance. At the risk of dropping knowledge Serge-style, here's some comparison of some of the metals brought up in this thread on the Brinell scale:

 

303 stainless; Brinell 160

304 stainless; Brinell 150

carbon steel (1020); Brinell 143

copper; Brinell 60-70

yellow brass as used by Serge; Brinell 80ish

 

304 stainless comes in just on the soft side of the half-way mark between 303 and carbon steel.

[choeppner]

Dang George....How long did you have to spend on the internet search engines to find all the infornmation on them :) :) :) LOL :cheesy::):cheesy:

 

-CHRIS-

[Geo]

Dang George....How long did you have to spend on the internet search engines to find all the infornmation on them :P :P :P LOL :):):)

 

-CHRIS-

 

I spent zero time on the search engines. This is what happens when you read more than you write, you acquire more information. :) Actually, the Brinell information I posted before, and I got it from Serge during our lengthy emails back and forth a while back. That Serge knows a thing or two, and ain't too bad with the putter making either. Do a search of some of the threads he started and you'll see some of his putter creations.

 

George

[Z-Man]

If you have a million, lets do it ...I am sure we figure something out...

[choeppner]

For a million bucks I think you can get one done any way you want made out of anything you want. LOL :):):)

-CHRIS-

[03trdblack]

I am going to have to vote for Nickel. You don't have to polish it, it doesn't tarnish, it doesn't rust, it feels wonderful and has a great natural finish.

 

My second choice would be Titanium. The reason being it feels pretty soft and has similar benefits as the nickel and you can use Tungsten to make it the correct weight and increase the MOI and forgiveness of the putter.

[sergizmo]

What about magnesium impregated into aluminum. Then form forged into a JAT style with Magnesium shaft laser welded to the head, i know i stole the unitized concept. The would be a female dog to do but i would pay a million bucks for one.

 

Magnesium is usually a no-go when it comes to machining. The reason; magnesium "dust" can ignite very easily from any static or spark. This dust can be formed if the feed rate is too low for the RPM, or if the cut is very shallow, resulting in rubbing and some dust in with the chips. If the dust ignites, any other magnesium that comes in contact with it will burn. And as we all know from grade 11 chemistry, magnesium burns white hot and is not to be fooled with.

 

A fellow from work told me a story about the shop he used to work at. A guy at his old shop was turning some magnesium in a Hardinge toolroom lathe. The part he was making had a very tight tolerance on the diameter, +/- .0002". The part was still a little bit big (over tolerance), so took one final pass of about .0002". As the pass was so light the chip was really dust instead of chip. He finished the pass and measured, in tolerance and a good part. Then a spark ignited all the chips in the pan and the lathe literally melted. That's right, a 1000 or so pound lathe slag in a matter of minutes. Thankfully everyone was OK.

 

That being said magnesium can be machined relatively safely with the proper precautions. Sufficient chip must be taken in order to avoid/reduce any magnesium dust. The machine along with operator/machinist must be fully grounded so that no spark is generated, and other precautions to do with the environment are taken (humidity levels, mats on ground, etc...).

 

Serge

[choeppner]

Dang Serge....If I ever have ANY questions about machining...you arethe person I am going to ask. :):):) Your insight hereis priceless. Thanks.

 

-CHRIS-

[sergizmo]

Dang Serge....If I ever have ANY questions about machining...you arethe person I am going to ask. :):):) Your insight hereis priceless. Thanks.

 

-CHRIS-

 

Thanks Chris. :) Remember though, Golfwrx has a lot of members, and some are bound to be very talented and experienced machinists/tool and die makers/moldmakers. I'm still an apprentice and have much to learn, but will try to help when I can. Machining is a trade, but a very skilled trade that is constantly evolving. Too bad the pay sucks Word not allowed (here in Ottawa anyway) LOL.

 

Any questions feel free to PM me.

 

As to the original question, I'll go with drewmebaby in saying that I'd like a tool steel putter. I'd choose O1 and have it hardened and then tempered until it was brown verging on blue/purple. It isn't that hard to machine (O1 is soft until hardened, very malleable), and is easily stamped pre-hardeneing. Could be a little tricky on fast greens though, the ball would come off a little hot. Muni speed rated.

[Croddad]

I would assume that when an OEM says carbon they mean, "high carbon."

 

Not neccessarily. Carbon steel is another way of saying mild steel, meaning basic iron and carbon along with very small amounts of other elements (not enough to be considered an alloy). It can contain anywhere from .15-.18 (1018) to about 1.2 (unusual, most common high is .9) percent carbon. Steels with a lot of carbon are referred to as high carbon steels, and in rounds are referred to as drill rod.

 

In general (this interpretation can vary)

 

Low carbon; .15-.18 to .4 percent carbon (1015,1018 to 1040)

 

Medium carbon; .41 to .65 percent carbon

 

High carbon; .66 to 1.2 percent carbon

 

Putters labelled as carbon steel would almost certainly be low carbon steel. They are softer, so larger cuts can be made (reducing machining time) and less tool wear occurs (reduced tooling costs). The softer material would also provide a softer feel than stainless, offering an alternative.

 

So my old man owns a welding business and he's pretty handy on a mill and lathe...I told him for Christmas I would love to have him make me a putter! He has a perfect block of 1025 steel for making one, I gave him measurements of a Coronado style putter and I have few spec questions:

 

What diameter does he need to make the neck so a standard shaft fits in it?

 

What kind of finish is best for carbon steel?

 

And what putters out there are made of 1025 steel that I can putt with so that I know that I'll like the feel?

 

I'll post pics the second it's finished!

[phillypete]

old thread, but I felt like contributing...

 

first of GSS, JSS, DSS, etc is all marketing as far as putters go. It doesn't matter where its made 303 is 303 and 304 is 304, but there's a rub... Germany and Japan do not use the same material designations as Americans, so if you go to Germany and ask for a chunk of 303 SS they might look at you funny. Basically every country has its own system. If someone could get me a sample of GSS or JSS I could test it and determine what it is.

 

 

I am of the opinion that the brinell number has little or nothing to do with the "feel" of the putter. Its not like the ball is capable of deforming the putter face so the hardness shouldn't be a factor. What would be a interesting number would be the transmission of vibration or resonance. Now I am sure there are some correlations between hardness and resonance but its not a true relationship.

 

Getting softer and softer materials worries me because of scratches and dents to the face. I have a low carbon putter and the thing got beat after a year from dirt and crud picked up by the ball. The other side of the coin is harder steels tend to also be very resonant. So I think we try stepping away with steel into an emerging material... Machinable Ceramic, the stuff is rock hard literally and will have very little resonance due to its porous nature. Granted that most ceramics are very light, so it wouldn't be a solid putter. This would allow some SERIOUS moi tweaking with some tungsten pods.

 

In a more traditional material sense I think bronze might make a nice exotic putter.

 

Also in a gimmick putter you could make one out of Stainless type 420 and call it the "high roller" and get Ricky Williams to endorse it. hehehe

 

Another gimmick could be using Russian Steel which is designated by GOST (usually pronounced 'ghost'). I can see the advert... "has your putting gone paranormal? then you need a supernatural putter... the Phillypete Phantom featuring Top Secret Russian "Ghost" Steel. hehehe I like! Trademark Trademark! its mine, called it!

[drewspin]

old thread, but I felt like contributing...

 

first of GSS, JSS, DSS, etc is all marketing as far as putters go. It doesn't matter where its made 303 is 303 and 304 is 304, but there's a rub... Germany and Japan do not use the same material designations as Americans, so if you go to Germany and ask for a chunk of 303 SS they might look at you funny. Basically every country has its own system. If someone could get me a sample of GSS or JSS I could test it and determine what it is.

 

After speaking to some people in the know - the above information is correct. 303 is 303 and 304 is 304 and the rest GSS/JSS/DASS is 99.9999% marketing-speak.

[glenwayputters]

I would assume that when an OEM says carbon they mean, "high carbon."

 

Not neccessarily. Carbon steel is another way of saying mild steel, meaning basic iron and carbon along with very small amounts of other elements (not enough to be considered an alloy). It can contain anywhere from .15-.18 (1018) to about 1.2 (unusual, most common high is .9) percent carbon. Steels with a lot of carbon are referred to as high carbon steels, and in rounds are referred to as drill rod.

 

In general (this interpretation can vary)

 

Low carbon; .15-.18 to .4 percent carbon (1015,1018 to 1040)

 

Medium carbon; .41 to .65 percent carbon

 

High carbon; .66 to 1.2 percent carbon

 

Putters labelled as carbon steel would almost certainly be low carbon steel. They are softer, so larger cuts can be made (reducing machining time) and less tool wear occurs (reduced tooling costs). The softer material would also provide a softer feel than stainless, offering an alternative.

 

there are some problems with low grade carbons due to the high lead content of them. When you get a high lead content, you bring into play a lot of inconsistencies in the steel. High lead content carbon steel is what is used in most CNC applications because it does less wear and tear on the cutters and is quicker and easier to machine.

 

1030 carbon steel is a little tougher to use, because it has less lead content and is considered "harder" than 1020.

 

But how does that actually translate into "feel"?

 

and what the heck is GSS, really????

 

and why is it so good???

 

jay

[glenwayputters]

Copper is a complete other issue.

 

that is why the copper series of Camerons about 10 years ago were copper plated.

 

Copper is good for candlesticks and pennies and that is about it.

 

jay

[daoldguy]

1. Carbon Steel and if you want it forged look no further than the original Wilson 8802

 

2. Beryllium Copper, the best of the Pings were the BeCu versions. Unfortunately there is this issue

of toxicity related to the beryllium, which is also why you do not see any more BeNi putters.

 

3. 304/304/DASS/GSS stainless, very good, I play a Bettinardi BB-18 DASS and love it but it doesn't have the truly soft feel of either carbon steel or BeCu.

[drewspin]

GSS = Stainless steel made in Germany. If it is 303 SS (or the german equivalent) it should be the same as JSS or A S S (American Stainless Steel) of the same grade for all practical purposes ... Make mine from A S S.

 

 

What about solid Tellurium Copper?

[cbae]

old thread, but I felt like contributing...

 

first of GSS, JSS, DSS, etc is all marketing as far as putters go. It doesn't matter where its made 303 is 303 and 304 is 304, but there's a rub... Germany and Japan do not use the same material designations as Americans, so if you go to Germany and ask for a chunk of 303 SS they might look at you funny. Basically every country has its own system. If someone could get me a sample of GSS or JSS I could test it and determine what it is.

 

After speaking to some people in the know - the above information is correct. 303 is 303 and 304 is 304 and the rest GSS/JSS/DASS is 99.9999% marketing-speak.

Unfortunately, that "marketing-speak" is so pervasive, people are now under the impression that 303 is some premium grade of stainless steel.

 

303 stainless is desireable in milling applications because, compared to other grades of stainless, it's more machineable, has lower yield strength, and is softer, which reduces wear and tear on your milling bits. It doesn't mean that it's going to feel softer to you when you hit a golf ball with it, but the "softness" of 303 is marketed that way in putters. Now people are under the impression that 303 is more expensive because it's softer than other grades of stainless when in actuality, it's one of the cheaper grades of stainless BECAUSE of its softness and low yield strength.

 

When you have a putter with "303" and "GSS" stamped into it as if it's a package of beef with "Grade A" on the label, it's easy to imagine how people might think 303 is a premium grade, when it really isn't.

[Evil R1]

I have tried to like Steel/Metal faced putters but just don't feel the love. I have used the C Series and CC Series of Ben Hogan by Bettinardi putters, Used the Scotty Cameron Studio Style Newport 2 and Red X Series Putters, even tried the Callaway Tour Blue TT1 and i-traxx putters. My Odyssey White Hot #1 just kept finding it's way back into my bag. I'm not even a fan of the white Steel Version of the Odyssey. The only Steel/Metal faced putted that had any longevity was the Heavy Putter but eventually that found it's way into the closet also.

 

I'm sure the term "Insert" is sacreligous around here, but it's what I prefer. Maybe a different compound for the insert might be something.

 

Thanks,

[JSC]

In my opinion, the perfect metal for a putter would be 304SS. It's the perfect balance between soft, responsive, and easy maintenance. At the risk of dropping knowledge Serge-style, here's some comparison of some of the metals brought up in this thread on the Brinell scale:

 

303 stainless; Brinell 160

304 stainless; Brinell 150

carbon steel (1020); Brinell 143

copper; Brinell 60-70

yellow brass as used by Serge; Brinell 80ish

 

304 stainless comes in just on the soft side of the half-way mark between 303 and carbon steel.

Interesting... my current gamer is a Cleveland Classic II (Newport 2 style). I believe it's made of 304 SS and has very nice deep mill marks. I love how it feels and always thought it was very underrated. Picked it up in like new condition for less than $40. I always thought of it as a "poor man's Scotty", which is fine by me. I don't have to worry too much about anyone walking away with it when my bag is unattended.