Wekopa review, both courses

[avrag]

WARNING: very long

Pros:
The setting of the whole complex is beautiful. When you arrive, the access road takes you away from the main road in a few turns and over some small rises, so, from the moment you reach the parking lot, you really feel that you are "away from it all".
The customer service is excellent, both on the course and in the clubhouse. All the members of the staff are helpful, friendly and quick to accomodate your needs. And there is no unnecessary and unwanted „service“ like you can experience on other top courses.
Both courses have very interesting lay-outs, that are challenging from all the sets of tees. Both courses provide some beautiful views, not so much of the landscape, but the holes themselves, against the desert surroundings, look beautiful, and of course, there are no houses.
Both courses are in excellent condition, you will not find bare spots anywhere. However, this leads to the cons.
Cons:
Both courses were a little too lush for my liking. Saguaro more so than Cholla, but this might be because I played Cholla in the afternoon. I think that, in an attempt to keep the fairways and greens very green, they let the grass grow a little too long and water a little too much. It was nowhere near as bad in that respect as Desert Willow in Palm Desert was (review soon to follow in the California sub-forum). But still, just for the sake of playing golf, less would be more.
The other, bigger reason for criticism is how difficult it is to find your way around the courses as a first timer. Both courses have many blind shots. My memory might deceive me, but I think that Saguaro had more blind tee shots, Cholla more blind second shots. This is actually a design feature I like, but if a course is built like that, they should make sure that people who do not know the course still have a reasonable chance to play it half decently. Being from continental Europe, I am used to boards we have on every tee box (about 3ft by 2 ft), which show a bird's eye view of the hole, with some yardages and arrows indicating slopes. So, you don’t have these in the US, but some of the more expensive courses have GPS on their carts, which also helps you, some of the cheaper courses have poles at 150 yards in the middle of the fairway, or rocks on the edges, at 150 and 100, which help you. Wekopa has none of that.
Instead, you get sheets with sketches of the holes, but they have two problems. Firstly, the graphics are in a strange pseudo-perspective, which is not from straight above, so they give you a distorted view. Secondly, the plans of the holes are so tiny, that it was impossible for me to read the yardage numbers on them without my reading glasses, which I usually don’t take to the golf course with me. Take a look at the overviews of the holes on their homepage, imagine them printed in a 1.5“ by 1“ size and trying to read them in the glaring sun, and you will know what I mean. Being from Europe, I am not somebody who is obsessed with yardages, quite the opposite actually, I am used to guessing and think it is part of the game. But I would like to have a general idea, where to hit to when faced with a blind shot, and that’s almost impossible at both Wekopa courses.
Given that, I think that the Cholla course is a little bit more playable, because you get a better sense of how the holes run off the tee, you can see the part of the fairway you are most likely to hit on most holes, and only a few holes have a semi-blind second shot (par 5s mostly).
I also did not like the bunkers. The sand was heavy and soft, without a firm base underneath, which I think is the worst combination you can have. Again, I felt they were a bit better on Cholla, because there actualy was a firm base closer to the surface than on Saguaro.
Playing Saguaro from tees shorter than the tips, quite a number of tee shots look like that: short carry over desert to a fairway that’s steep uphill and virtually looks like a green wall right in front of you. And as I have stated above, you have no idea, how far it is to carry it to he top, and in many cases, you have to drive up there to see, if the fairway is already clear. This also makes the course tough to walk, although the tee boxes are close to the previous greens. But I would hate to walk 180 yards uphill on about 4 or 5 holes, just to see, if I can hit my tee shot already.
I also did not like the strange succession of very short and very long par 4s, which is a feature of Saguaro, and the 9th is a really weak hole. It looks like the designers said „Oh, too bad, we are already back at the clubhouse, and we have only eight holes so far. Let’s just squeeze in a short uphill par 3 in there, because we still have room for that.“
The biggest issue I had with Saguaro was the fact that I lost 4 balls into the desert after shots that hit the fairway. Two came on tee shots and two on second shots on par 5s. These were not hit through doglegs, they also had no sidespin, so that it would have been predictable that they bounce sideways. These were 4 straight shots, which went approximately where I had wanted to hit them, they landed on the fairway, about 5 to 7 yards from the edges, but still bounced into the desert. This might be funny and quirky on a 200 years old links course, but it is not on a modern course designed to get played by lots of guests.
NO, I did not hate Saguaro, far from it. My review might sound a bit more negative than my actual feelings were. I guess I emphasize the cons so much, because I have read so many reviews stating that the course is perfect, and I think it is not. Also, the two rounds I had played previous to Wekopa, really had been on golf courses I would consider perfect, namely Shadow Ridge in Palm Desert and Southern Dunes in Maricopa, both Schmidt&Curley designs, which certainly was no coincidence.
One more word about Cholla, which I thought was the more interesting and more playable course at Wekopa, although maybe not so pretty:
Some people have complained about the stone walls around some greens, which I do not find bad at all. When you are faced with a ball lying against a stone wall, you have hit it into a water hazard, albeit a dry one. So you cannot expect to have an easy shot from there.
So, overall, I was a little bit disappointed, given all the raving reviews I had read about Wekopa. I would give Cholla 8 out of 10 points and Saguaro 6.
Still, it was a great day of golf at a beautiful setting. I think I would also play both courses again, when I return to Scottsdale, just to see what difference it makes when you know them be

[XFelon]

Makes me wanna go play both of them this weekend..

[puttnforthe8]

6 for Saguaro and 8 for Cholla? Wow, rather harsh. But your opinion. Can't say I agree with either assessment. However, for me Saguaro has gotten better the more I play it....

Too bad you did not enjoy it.

[avrag]

[quote name='puttnforthe8' timestamp='1335242255' post='4778820']
6 for Saguaro and 8 for Cholla? Wow, rather harsh. But your opinion. Can't say I agree with either assessment. However, for me Saguaro has gotten better the more I play it....

Too bad you did not enjoy it.
[/quote]

I actually did enjoy it. But I think, with a few small tweeks, the expereince could be so much better. I would still have some issues with Saguaro's design, but given the setting, the experience is always enjoyable.

[drake47]

I agree with you on #9 on Saguaro, very poorly designed hole. It really does not fit with the rest of the course.

[teejaywhy]

A little late to the party here, as I've been struggling to find the time to post some follow-up comments.

 

Thanks for the comprehensive review Avrag. I'm always interested to hear what people think about my favorite course in the state. Naturally, when someone isn't 100% thrilled by the Saguaro, it creates a certain amount of inner reflection, and self doubt perhaps.. And seeing a 6/10 rating simply pains my heart. But like anything else, music, cinema, fashion... previous experiences and personal taste play a big role in one's likes and dislikes.

 

While I may not change your perception, I would like to offer another view for those who have not played the course and may be considering it.

 

The soft conditions would be an unfortunate effect of the winter overseed cycle that is an unfavorable reality of golf in the desert. Not only does it totally disrupt things for two months in the fall, the spring transition also presents some challenges to conditioning. Right now, as the weather heats up, most courses try to hold on to that rye as long as possible which means a lot of water and a period of overly soft conditions up until June when they finally let the rye die off and the Bermuda reemerge. That's unfortunate for your visit because the Saguaro does typically play fairly firm and fast, especially in the summer, but even in the winter period (Jan-Feb-Mar) after the rye has established. In any case, I always look at conditioning as a separate factor from design. Where conditioning can change, the design (good or bad) remains. But I have to agree with you that soft conditions detract from the experience and it's a shame you did not see the course in its best presentation.

 

Your main criticism focuses on the difficulty one faces as a first time visitor. I always find it puzzling when I read where someone doesn't like features that may be unfair or at least not benefitting to the first-time player. In my experience, the better courses are not immediately accessible on the first visit and take some time to "figure out." These kind of courses get better with each play because it takes more thought and effort to realize the strategies and the nuance. On the other hand, a course that is "all right there in front of you" reveals everything it has on the first play. The path is clearly laid out before you and the course can be negotiated without too much thought. Elevated tee boxes allow a perfect view of the landing area which in turn provides a look at next target. My thoughts are that these courses are designed for the tourist. Much like the attractive but dumb blonde, subsequent plays don't reveal anything new and in fact, that style of course despite all the visual and aesthetic WOW, one tends to get bored after a few go arounds. The fact that one gets fooled a bit by the design of a course is something I find very attractive, in fact, an essential element of better courses.

 

But I think you understand and appreciate that. In fact, most of your complaint is directed toward the course guide's lack of help. To be honest, short of an experienced caddy to guide you, any method of providing direction to the first-timer is going to fall short one way or the other, especially with a course of any complexity. Whether it be a large wooden sign on the tee box (a hideous eyesore IMO, not to mention not terribly helpful once you are out in the fairway), on-cart GPS (also not a fan), or a published course guide, nothing is a substitute for experience. I found the course guide at Saguaro to as helpful as any, giving the needed info as to the shape of the hole, the yardages to hazards, and carry distances, green depths, etc. All that a course guide could be. But seriously, should the golf course be faulted because you did not bring your glasses? By the way, I do believe that they sell course guides in the proshop that are in the pocket-sized booklet form with one hole per page. Same illustrations as the free one but perhaps easier to see.

 

Yes, there are "blind" shots at Saguro. There are however, no "blind" shots that require driving (or walking) ahead to see if the way is clear. What you experienced is an illusion, a trick, skillfully created by the designer.

 

Walkability. Saguaro is a good walk although above average in severity mostly due to the elevation changes. But with a couple of exceptions, the walks from tee to fairway are direct and the walks from green to next tee are short. This is a Bill Coore trademark that is sadly missing in most modern courses. Contrast Saguaro to the next door neighbor Cholla where tees are sited in the typical modern fashion - on elevated positions that offer a view of the hole, creating lengthy and circuitous cart path walks from green to tee, and again from tee to fairway. I would consider Cholla to be an exceptionally difficult walk, purely due to the design.

 

"Shots that went into the desert after hitting the fairway." What? The fairways at Saguaro offer some of the most width in the state, but like any golf course, there are places to hit and places not to hit. This is like saying you don't like a green with a false front because "I hit the green" yet the ball rolled off. ?? This goes back to the proposition that a course should have some mystery and that the proper play must be figured out. Most definitely different than the typical modern linear course with a path down the middle of the fairway toward the green. This is what makes Saguaro special.

 

To me, Saguaro embodies most of the design elements that I believe make for the best golf courses. In particular, it seems to evoke more of a classic style, a throwback if you will, to a past era where golf courses were built with features for playing the game of golf. One quickly realizes this is not a typical modern course, rather than forcing a singular style of play or shot in a linear, point-to-point fashion, Saguaro presents a seemingly wide open canvas on which the golfer can choose a STRATEGY of how to play the hole. There is no one correct answer. One will encounter a fair amount of quirk on the Saguaro, with blind shots, centerline hazards, and odd greenshapes, things that have all but disappeared from the modern golf course. Perhaps that is why I like it so much.

 

Not trying to diminish your experience, but as I see it, you played the Saguaro expecting the typical tourist style and were disappointed when you encountered something more. There are hundreds of golf courses in the Phoenix area and most of the modern, daily fee courses do offer a straightforward, if challenging experience. There are but a few that are different in this regard, and I find Saguaro to be one of them. I would guarantee that subsequent plays would reveal more interest and understanding and bump that 6 rating up considerably.

[teejaywhy]

One other thing, what exactly is it about #9 that people don't like ?

[avrag]

A little late to the party here, as I've been struggling to find the time to post some follow-up comments.

 

Thanks for the comprehensive review Avrag. I'm always interested to hear what people think about my favorite course in the state. Naturally, when someone isn't 100% thrilled by the Saguaro, it creates a certain amount of inner reflection, and self doubt perhaps.. And seeing a 6/10 rating simply pains my heart. But like anything else, music, cinema, fashion... previous experiences and personal taste play a big role in one's likes and dislikes.

 

While I may not change your perception, I would like to offer another view for those who have not played the course and may be considering it.

 

The soft conditions would be an unfortunate effect of the winter overseed cycle that is an unfavorable reality of golf in the desert. Not only does it totally disrupt things for two months in the fall, the spring transition also presents some challenges to conditioning. Right now, as the weather heats up, most courses try to hold on to that rye as long as possible which means a lot of water and a period of overly soft conditions up until June when they finally let the rye die off and the Bermuda reemerge. That's unfortunate for your visit because the Saguaro does typically play fairly firm and fast, especially in the summer, but even in the winter period (Jan-Feb-Mar) after the rye has established. In any case, I always look at conditioning as a separate factor from design. Where conditioning can change, the design (good or bad) remains. But I have to agree with you that soft conditions detract from the experience and it's a shame you did not see the course in its best presentation.

 

Your main criticism focuses on the difficulty one faces as a first time visitor. I always find it puzzling when I read where someone doesn't like features that may be unfair or at least not benefitting to the first-time player. In my experience, the better courses are not immediately accessible on the first visit and take some time to "figure out." These kind of courses get better with each play because it takes more thought and effort to realize the strategies and the nuance. On the other hand, a course that is "all right there in front of you" reveals everything it has on the first play. The path is clearly laid out before you and the course can be negotiated without too much thought. Elevated tee boxes allow a perfect view of the landing area which in turn provides a look at next target. My thoughts are that these courses are designed for the tourist. Much like the attractive but dumb blonde, subsequent plays don't reveal anything new and in fact, that style of course despite all the visual and aesthetic WOW, one tends to get bored after a few go arounds. The fact that one gets fooled a bit by the design of a course is something I find very attractive, in fact, an essential element of better courses.

 

But I think you understand and appreciate that. In fact, most of your complaint is directed toward the course guide's lack of help. To be honest, short of an experienced caddy to guide you, any method of providing direction to the first-timer is going to fall short one way or the other, especially with a course of any complexity. Whether it be a large wooden sign on the tee box (a hideous eyesore IMO, not to mention not terribly helpful once you are out in the fairway), on-cart GPS (also not a fan), or a published course guide, nothing is a substitute for experience. I found the course guide at Saguaro to as helpful as any, giving the needed info as to the shape of the hole, the yardages to hazards, and carry distances, green depths, etc. All that a course guide could be. But seriously, should the golf course be faulted because you did not bring your glasses? By the way, I do believe that they sell course guides in the proshop that are in the pocket-sized booklet form with one hole per page. Same illustrations as the free one but perhaps easier to see.

 

Yes, there are "blind" shots at Saguro. There are however, no "blind" shots that require driving (or walking) ahead to see if the way is clear. What you experienced is an illusion, a trick, skillfully created by the designer.

 

Walkability. Saguaro is a good walk although above average in severity mostly due to the elevation changes. But with a couple of exceptions, the walks from tee to fairway are direct and the walks from green to next tee are short. This is a Bill Coore trademark that is sadly missing in most modern courses. Contrast Saguaro to the next door neighbor Cholla where tees are sited in the typical modern fashion - on elevated positions that offer a view of the hole, creating lengthy and circuitous cart path walks from green to tee, and again from tee to fairway. I would consider Cholla to be an exceptionally difficult walk, purely due to the design.

 

"Shots that went into the desert after hitting the fairway." What? The fairways at Saguaro offer some of the most width in the state, but like any golf course, there are places to hit and places not to hit. This is like saying you don't like a green with a false front because "I hit the green" yet the ball rolled off. ?? This goes back to the proposition that a course should have some mystery and that the proper play must be figured out. Most definitely different than the typical modern linear course with a path down the middle of the fairway toward the green. This is what makes Saguaro special.

 

To me, Saguaro embodies most of the design elements that I believe make for the best golf courses. In particular, it seems to evoke more of a classic style, a throwback if you will, to a past era where golf courses were built with features for playing the game of golf. One quickly realizes this is not a typical modern course, rather than forcing a singular style of play or shot in a linear, point-to-point fashion, Saguaro presents a seemingly wide open canvas on which the golfer can choose a STRATEGY of how to play the hole. There is no one correct answer. One will encounter a fair amount of quirk on the Saguaro, with blind shots, centerline hazards, and odd greenshapes, things that have all but disappeared from the modern golf course. Perhaps that is why I like it so much.

 

Not trying to diminish your experience, but as I see it, you played the Saguaro expecting the typical tourist style and were disappointed when you encountered something more. There are hundreds of golf courses in the Phoenix area and most of the modern, daily fee courses do offer a straightforward, if challenging experience. There are but a few that are different in this regard, and I find Saguaro to be one of them. I would guarantee that subsequent plays would reveal more interest and understanding and bump that 6 rating up considerably.

 

teejaywhy,

the truth is, you are really to blame.

In the past 4 1/2 years (we have booth been members for about the same time), I have read many of your 3.700 posts and I agreed 100% with about 3.699 of them, especially on such topics as golf course design (island greens and 240 yds par 3s, courses with houses on every hole), ettiquette, walkimg vs riding, golf course conditioning, in general, traditions of the game, if you want to call all of that that way. So, naturally, I thought, that if you loved Saguaro so much, I would as well. Maybe my expectations were a little too high because of that.

Two points in your post bother me.

First, I never expected a "typical tourist layout." The rounds I played in the Palm Springs and Phoenix areas on my vacation were played on Desert Dunes, Indian Canyons South, Desert Willow Firecliff, Shadow Ridge, Southern Dunes and both Wekopa courses. See the common demoninator? (Almost) no houses, and (perhaps aside from Indian Canyons South) no "typical tourist" layouts at all. I would have chosen different courses for sure, if I would have had that in mind.

Second, I only need my glasses to read very fine print in very bad light. I have never needed them on a golf course before, and I have always been able to read the local rules on scorecards for instance, which are usually printed in very small fonts. The hole overviews they give you at Wekopa are really more difficult to read and comprehend, because of the shiny paper. And they do not really show the holes as they are in my opinion. As I wrote before, they are the same as the overviews on their website (which I had studied three times, before I played there). Still, when I look at them now, after having played the course, I still have trouble recognising most of the holes and remembering what they looked like in reality and how I played them, because the sketches themselves really do not look much like the views I remember. The obvious exceptions are the 4th, 8th, 13th, 14th and 16th holes, which are easily remembered. Make the test, show the hole overviews from the website to a person who has never played the courses before, and I am sure, that from the sketches alone, this person won't even be able to tell you if a hole is uphill or downhill. And yes, I am sure that I could have bought a more detailed course guide in the clubhouse. But to be honest, at the price they charge, I think a "birdie book" as we call it here, should be included.

BTW, the 14th and the 16th are very memorable for me, because those were two of the holes I found the ball in the desert after seemingly hitting a very good tee shot to a seemingly safe area in the fairway (middle of the widest section of the left fairway on 14 with a 5-wood, but it still rolled to the right into the desert which bisects the two fairways; and right half of the fairway between first and second bunker on 16, when I got there, there was no ball, and I found it about 10 yards into the desert just short of the second bunker, but I swear it first landed on the fairway a good ten yards from the right edge).

I like quirky designs, I like sunken greens and false fronts, I like pot bunkers in the middle of fairways, I like par 4s and par 5s which make you leave the driver in the bag, although I am by no means a long hitter. So, the elements, which make up Saguaro in your opinion are generally what I like about about golf courses. Before my trip to the southwestern US, my favourite golf course was a Bernhard Langer designed course in Southern Bavaria, which makes you scratch your head all the time, because you are always confronted with many options, with lots of optical illusions and the course in general could well be called "Langer's revenge on Bomb & Gouge Golf". But this course also has safe options that you really can rely on off every tee, and on a few holes at Saguaro I thought I had taken the safe option, played exactly the shot I had wanted to, and still lost my ball in rhe desert.

I just did not see too many of the elements I really like at Sagurao, when I played it. Or, to put it differently, I saw a lot more of those elements on the Schmidt & Curley courses I played (Shadow Ridge and Southern Dunes), at Desert Dunes (Robert Trent Jones design "links" desert course) in the Palm Spings area and even on Cholla, than on Saguaro. The first 3 courses I just mentioned are certainly courses which can be played dozens of times without ever getting boring and without ever being figured out completely as well.

The condition of the course was not too soft, by the way, I might have expressed myself not clearly enough originally. It was not overwatered at all, but I felt the grass was a little bit too long. It was a lot better than Desert Willow Firecliff in that respect, but still obviously more emphasis was put on the looks than on the playing conditions.

As I said, perhaps my review would have been more positive, if my expectations had not been that high. Next time I'll be there, which might be in 3 to 5 years, I will make sure to contact you and make arrangements to play a round with you at Saguaro, just like I did with Mark for Southern Dunes this time. Maybe then I will enjoy it just as much.

[sabram]

Love this thread.

Saguaro #9 is the only hole on the course that I don't have a photo of. I wonder waht that means?

[sabram]

Just saw this post from a gentleman who finsihed playing all of the courses on Golf magazine's top 100 course lists from 2001 through 2011. His favorite public course of all..... We-Ko-Pa Saguaro

[url="http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51966.0.html"]Bill Shultz completes all of the world top 100 lists[/url]

[TML]

seriously, they do sell yardage books in the pro shop. Whenever I play a new course that is top ranked, I buy one so I know how to play from tee to green.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1335993215' post='4834580']
As I said, perhaps my review would have been more positive, if my expectations had not been that high. Next time I'll be there, which might be in 3 to 5 years, I will make sure to contact you and make arrangements to play a round with you at Saguaro, just like I did with Mark for Southern Dunes this time. Maybe then I will enjoy it just as much.
[/quote]

Avrag, I would look forward to the meet-up. The round and first beer is on me.


[quote name='sabram' timestamp='1336011162' post='4836594']
Just saw this post from a gentleman who finsihed playing all of the courses on Golf magazine's top 100 course lists from 2001 through 2011. His favorite public course of all..... We-Ko-Pa Saguaro

[url="http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51966.0.html"]Bill Shultz completes all of the world top 100 lists[/url]
[/quote]

Quite remarkable!