Existential Cameron question for intelligent discussion

xxio · December 7, 2006

Tpariff,

I'm not well versed in SC putters so forgive my questions if they seem senseless.

So what your saying is that a CT is just another name for a custom putter? The CT does not mean/is not limited to "Tour". Anyone can choose to get one from the Sc Studio if he has the $$$?

I always thought they were "Tour" only meaning they could only be given to a Pro. What the Pro does after that is up to him. I guess you learn something new everyday. I have only seen/putted with one CT ever. It just looked liked a better made NP (I'll try to borrow it again and post pics).

Now, what if I order a custom putter $$$$$ but don't want the CT stamp....does that make it a CT=Custom Putter?

Need more enlightenment please.

Thank you for the info.

tpariff · December 7, 2006

Tpariff,

I'm not well versed in SC putters so forgive my questions if they seem senseless.

So what your saying is that a CT is just another name for a custom putter? The CT does not mean/is not limited to "Tour". Anyone can choose to get one from the Sc Studio if he has the $$$?

I always thought they were "Tour" only meaning they could only be given to a Pro. What the Pro does after that is up to him. I guess you learn something new everyday. I have only seen/putted with one CT ever. It just looked liked a better made NP (I'll try to borrow it again and post pics).

Now, what if I order a custom putter $$$$$ but don't want the CT stamp....does that make it a CT=Custom Putter?

Need more enlightenment please.

Thank you for the info.

No problem. There's really not an absolute answer to your questions, but I'll do my best.

1. The Circle T is actually a stamp or mark typically reserved for "tour" putters. I use the term "tour" loosely because not all "tour" putters have been played on tour or were owned by a tour pro. There are tour putters without the CT stamp. The CT stamp is not the only defining characteristic of a tour putter, so don't be fooled by aftermarket CT stamps on an OTR. These come up from time to time on eBay.

2. If you have the cash, you can do one of a few things to get a "tour" putter. (1) You can order a custom putter through one of the 2 authorized distributors in the U.S. (2) You can purchase a new in-stock "tour" putter from one of the 2 distributors. (3) You can buy a used one through the B/S/T forums at cameroncollector.com, here, or on eBay. or (4) You can find a tour pro who's generous enough to give or sell you one.

3. Not all "tour" or CT putters go strictly to tour players. As discussed above, you can order one or buy one.

4. If you order a custom putter, the stamping is up to Scotty's discretion. It used to be you could specify the stamps, but not anymore. Things were getting crazy, so this option was eliminated.

5. For complete enlightenment and the path to all things Cameron, please visit www.cameroncollector.com. It's a forum for Cameron collectors where all things are discussed. There's a wealth of knowlege and great people, many of whom are members here also.

Good Luck!

xxio · December 7, 2006

So basically the CT is a custom stamp that you need Scotty's approval for? No need to be a Pro.

hodges · December 8, 2006

Maybe instead of calling them tour putter most circle t putters should be called not-otr putters.

Of course if you were trying to sell one it doesn't sound as sexy or valuable.

greg

NutmegOfConsolation · December 8, 2006

What is the definition of "tour?" For some people, my thinking as well, a "tour" putter is a putter that has been made for someone on a pro tour. Now, I'm not well versed in the history of this, but I assume that the circle T stamp and various other "tour" stampings originated from that idea. I believe this interested collectors and they wanted circle Ts of their own, and marketing being what it is, they were created for them with a nice markup in price to boot. This would then lead to a second definition as defining a "tour" putter generically as a putter that has been custom built and unavailable for purchase off the rack.

There is also the question of what mentality each person has. Fow a number of people, the putter is their prefered artform, and they wish to collect special putters. I look at it similar to how I look at a generic hammer. Any hammer will do the job but some are more aesthetically pleasing then others. People belonging to the latter mindset are going to use it, the former are going to look at it.

The collector type sees the circle T and tour stampings as more valuable, like the Mona Lisa. The other type sees a painting of some woman.

P.S. I thnk I may have shifted subjects slightly. The change stems from the thought "Just like I wouldn't purchase a portrait of someone I don't know, I'm not inclined to buy a "tour" putter built for someone else." While I would like to correct this, I have to leave.

RobotDoctor · December 8, 2006

. . . By the way the Circle T stamp is not trademarked by Scotty.

You sure? Perhaps they licensed it.

Excerpt from fine print
Trademarks:

The following is a list of some of the trademarks owned or licensed by Acushnet Company used on or with Scotty Cameron by Titleist products:

Big Sur, Bulls Eye Design, Cameron Crown Design, Catalina, Coronado, Del Mar, Laguna, Mil-Spec, Napa, Newport, Newport Two, Oil Can, Polka Dot Design, Pro Platinum, Santa Fe, Scotty Cameron, Scotty Cameron by Titleist, Scottydale, Sonoma, Studio Design, Teryllium, TeI3, The Art of Putting, T in Oval Design, Titleist.

See also

"Trademark/Intellectual Property modifications

A putter is considered to have trademark and/or intellectual property modifications if an original Scotty Cameron putter has infringing stampings such as the crown logo, circle T stamp, Titleist logo, etc., made outside the Studio."

The issue of trademarks was discussed in a thread at TCC. I did not find CT stamp in the registered trademark list. The following is a list that was found and posted in the thread.

drewspin · December 8, 2006

Thanks,

Some interesting info there, including the TM for "GSS" Marketing-speak.

Maybe they license CT from some horse ranch or something?

tpariff · December 8, 2006

Here's another thing to ponder:

Is the Circle T stamp any different than the "T" or "B" stamp placed on tour issue Taylor Made driver heads? And are those driver heads really only reserved for tour players? I personally bought one brand new from a retail golf store in Ft. Myers, FL, so I guess they're not.

Now, there will always be heated debate over whether a tour issue head is any different from a TP head. But should the "T" and "B" stamps be treated any differently than a CT stamp?

drewspin · December 8, 2006

Completely different issue.

The TMAG hosel stamp for T or B indicates COR tested driver heads, some of which do end up in the retail channels.

drewspin · December 8, 2006

Circle T is, in fact, TradeMarked by Acushnet, though only as of OCT 19, 2006

See Here:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&...ate=6mdvm5.5.32 USPTO web page

tpariff · December 8, 2006

Completely different issue.

The TMAG hosel stamp for T or B indicates COR tested driver heads, some of which do end up in the retail channels.

I know the B means it's been COR tested, but what about the T? They both don't indicate COR testing. Everything I've read indicates that the "T" before the serial number means "Tour." If so, we're talking about a very similar issue. A marking used to denote a "tour" club that may or may not be used by a tour player or destined for a tour.

drewspin · December 8, 2006

There is no debating that Cameron makes a great putter. But other than a dab of paint and a T on the putter, it is no different than what is on the rack.

To be sure, there are Cameron models that are not sold in large numbers at retail. I would not call an 009 an "Off the Rack" putter even though some of them are made for retail distribution through a very small number of select retailers.

tpariff · December 8, 2006

Joe Peel,

I own a tour putter, COA #003635, a center shafted Futura Phantom Prototype in raw finish. Here't the link to the COA:

http://www.scottycameron.com/authenticatio...istrysearch.asp

Show me a store where I can pick one of those "off the rack."

In fact, if you look in the Cameron registry, you will not find another putter like it. It's the only one of its kind, not an OTR mass produced and sold for $289.

Also, as Drewspin mentioned, I challenge anyone in here to walk into Watts, Golfsmith, Golf Galaxy, etc. and get an 009. It won't happen.

If the OTRs work for you, or anyone here, then great. But please don't try to compare an OTR to a custom Scotty.

drewspin · December 11, 2006

Thanks for clarifying. My feelings weren't hurt, I welcome all intelligent opions on the matter.

augiep38 · December 11, 2006

There is also the question of what mentality each person has. Fow a number of people, the putter is their prefered artform, and they wish to collect special putters. I look at it similar to how I look at a generic hammer. Any hammer will do the job but some are more aesthetically pleasing then others. People belonging to the latter mindset are going to use it, the former are going to look at it.

I have to somewhat disagree with you. If you have ever truly worked in the construction industry, you will know that there is a Hammer and then there are "clubs". Just grab any old club and go to work framing up houses all day and you will soon learn that there is more to it than aesthetics and cost.

It all boils down to preferences. Obviously people buy items for many different reasons. I didn't buy my 009 because of the circle t stamp. I bought it because I liked the looks and the way it rolled the putts. I also must admit that I like having a more unique putter than what is truly available OTR.

Todd